CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3481 times:
My tribute to this great pilot, to this great plane and sadly not a lot of people talk about the way all this and other canadian projects were scrapped! Sometimes I imagine where Canada would be in aviation if this didn't happen!
AvroArrow From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 1044 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3459 times:
My thoughts exactly CV990. However, time marches on and unfortunately you can't change the past. I always tell people what I know about the Arrow if they ask me, which happens more than you might think in casual conversation. So there is some reason to hope that the legacy of Avro's innovation might live on for a long time yet.
Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3425 times:
First time I read all about the Avro Arrow ( and also about Avro Jetliner ) was in an old issue of Air Enthusiast. Then I saw a TV series with Dan Akroyd. Once a while I still like to check all the details about this affair and it makes me sick, sick of course with the politicians and how politicians can actually kill the dreams of a company, the dreams of their employees and in the end the dreams of a nation. The way this issue was carried on it's just unbelievable, so it's good that people like you and other sensitive aviation guys can bring back those memories! I know that some people will feel unconfortable with it, but we CANNOT forget these affairs, they are part of aviation history and they need to be preserved!
Thanks for doing that AvroArrow, and from side I always come back a bit with that when ever is possible!
Connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13 Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3398 times:
For those who want a very good recasting of the whole Arrow saga, I recommend "Arrow Scrapbook" by Petert Zuuring (1999, Arrow Alliance Press,ISBN 1-55056-690-3).
IIn fact, it appears as though the recommendation to kill the Arrow came form the Chief of Defense Staff at the time, Gen. George Pearkes. The Arrow's costs were wildly out of control, it was well behind schedule -- although, with all the innovaitons at the time this is not too surprising -- and the Armed Forces had an appetite for new ,long haul transports, the army new tanks, and the navy new frigates. The Arrow was eating up a bigger and bigger piece of the defense pie, and there was no certainty it would 'do the job', so, they recommended to the Cabinet Defense Committee to scrap the program (op cit ppg 101-106).
And it was. Sadly, the prototypes were broken up, ostensibly for security reasons.
The book contradicts the view that American pressure killed the plane, in fact indicates the USAF were prepared to fund 3 squadrons for Canada, among other things.
I recommend this book to all Arrowheads. It is a level-headed account of the trials and tribulations of what was, despite its' many problems, a beautiful aircraft.
I now sit back and await the inevitable responses.
Rikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1526 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3398 times:
I sincerely express my deep regrets to a man who was among those at the forefront of commercial aviation in Canada. May he rest in peace.
Regarding the Arrow.....
...an absolutely stunning achievement in Canadian aviaton history, the Arrow was also one of Canadian aviations biggest heartbreaks, next to another amazing aircraft, the AVRO Jetliner (the second commercial aircraft to fly after the Comet, and before the 707. Howard Hughes and TWA were among early US interests, as well as the Canadian and US govt.).
Due mostly to political pressure (to this day, there is speculation of US govt. involvement), and (supposedly) in the Jetliners case, the unavailability of a stronger engine to make it a twin... both aircraft lines were not only cancelled but almost completely destroyed. There is little left to the AVRO legacy in Canada, it is indeed sad to loose one of the last remnants of these programs.
Smokescreen From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 230 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3398 times:
I agree about the technological setback involved with the cancellation of the Arrow even though I suspect the project would have become a white elephant for Canada.
The bigger blow imho was the cancellation of the Jetliner - note the round windows! When the Comet 1 was grounded the Jetliner would have owned the market, years before Boeing or Douglas rolled out their designs.
Rikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1526 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3369 times:
Quote: I recommend this book to all Arrowheads. It is a level-headed account of the trials and tribulations of what was, despite its' many problems, a beautiful aircraft.
I now sit back and await the inevitable responses.
I had not heard of this intersting take on the story, Connie...I will certainly look for the book! Regardless of what ended up killing both programs, it is ashame that the AVRO story has lost one of its Arrow pioneers!
Thomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3780 posts, RR: 24 Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3332 times:
I have always been fascinated with the story of this remarkable aircraft, a plane some 20 + years ahead of its time and ALL CANADIAN. Indeed the US defense contractors such as Boeing, Northrup, Lockheed were not unhappy to see this project scrapped but I don't think that the cancellation of the Arrow project can be put squarely on D.C.'s doorstep as has been suggested in the past. From what I understand there are reports from the RCMP that the project had been infiltrated by the Soviets which would supposedly remain classified up until the 90s.
One can only imagine where Canadian aviation might be today had the Arrow project been allowed to continue. Indeed a sad but intriguing footnote in aviation history .
That was largely because the air force demanded a state of the art, but untested, weapons system -- against the recommendation of Avro and the mid-level RCAF types. Avro recommended using an off the shelf weapon system and upgrading to the newer stuff once the bugs had been worked out. Kinda like a bridge too far.
I watched this airplane fly many times as a kid, and met (through my father) Jan Zurakowski and Mike Cooper-Slipper. Jurakowski was at the controls for the first flight. Cooper-Slipper flew the B-47 test bed they used for the Iroquois engine. Iroquois was so powerful it could keep the B-47 aloft solo.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3211 times:
Even agreeing with the fact that the Avro Arrow was a risky ( but at the same time it could have been a great achievement in military aviation..) the Avro Jetliner could have sliced at least 5 to 10 years in jet civil aviation, so I don't understand why canadian government cancelled this project too! I still a slight feeling that at one time Canada was "too close" to USA!