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Shifting 748I Capacity Closer To Rival A380  
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14490 times:

...Boeing 747 sales, marketing and in-service support vice-president Randy Tinseth says rough calculations indicate that with a 5.6m (18.3ft) stretch, as opposed to the initially planned 3.6m fuselage extension, the aircraft could accommodate "around 10 extra business class or 30-34 additional economy seats and still get 8,000nm". Together with the provision for the upper lobe galley, which frees up an extra 12 seats on the main deck, this would potentially raise maximum seating capacity under Boeing tri-class rules to around 496, compared with the originally envisaged 450...

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...7-8+Intercontinental+capacity.html

Has a 496 seat capacity without compromising range been discussed before?

[Edited 2006-07-26 22:13:21]

150 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14477 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
496

That is a very interesting number considering the numbers quoted for most of the 380s.



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14477 times:

Another article states that Boeing says 15 carriers like it as is, a few want more capacity, and a few want more range, so while the extension is feasible, they aren't positive what they will do.

Something tells me that it will take a large launch order from one of the ones who want more capacity for Boeing to do the further stretch. Otherwise, it'll stay as is and they'll instead look at getting 8500nm out of it...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14419 times:

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 1):
That is a very interesting number considering the numbers quoted for most of the 380s.

That's not a real 496 though. But it would be a real 450 depending on configuration.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31060 posts, RR: 87
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14269 times:
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Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Has a 496 seat capacity without compromising range been discussed before?

Yes, mainly by moving galley and lavatory spaces up into the crown.


User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 14097 times:

I'm counting the minutes until Keesje again decries the floor space deficiency of the 748-I compared to the A380. And I again reiterate that the 748-I ISN'T a direct competitor to the A380, although a viable alternative for some carriers. Improving CASM with a further small stretch may help generate some sales for this passenger variant, although the freighter alone could keep the program afloat; I expect sales of the 748-F to be quite robust. I don't expect 747-8I sales to approach the A388 but it should do reasonably well and would be gravy on top of the freighter's sure to be solid numbers. I think it was both arrogant and foolish for Airbus and others to earlier completely write off the 747 as obsolete; there's still a place for this improved model in the market. And given its much lighter weight and new-gen engines, it has a chance of giving the A380 a fair run for its money in operating economics. Though some are slamming it for having no pax-model orders (except for a sole VIP sale), it's still early and we know carriers are looking at the 'I'. There's a reasonable opportunity for some solid, though not gangbuster sales for that version.

User currently offlineA5XX From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 14051 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Has a 496 seat capacity without compromising range been discussed before?

So.. According to Boeing, there's no market for VLA...   

Then again, why would they feel the need to come up with a 500 pax airplane?

Poor reading of the market, or bruised ego?  stirthepot 

Yves.

[Edited 2006-07-27 00:03:26]


we are the boeing... resistance is futile...You will be assimilated
User currently offlineBCAInfoSys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13989 times:

Quoting A5XX (Reply 6):
So.. According to Boeing, there's no market for VLA...

Then again, why would they feel the need to come up with a 500 pax airplane?

Poor reading of the market, or bruised ego?

Or perhaps a very clever tactic. Let Airbus risk the big bucks to expose whether a particular market segment is viable. Then follow up with a relatively-inexpensive derivative of the 747 which will perhaps steal a few A380 orders with very little potential risk to Boeing.

Even if it never sells in huge numbers, given the relatively low-cost for developing this new member of the 747 family, Boeing has found another winner.

My  twocents .


User currently offlineA5XX From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13949 times:

Quoting BCAInfoSys (Reply 7):
Even if it never sells in huge numbers, given the relatively low-cost for developing this new member of the 747 family, Boeing has found another winner.

Then Boeing could buy back all the B744 currently stored in the desert, retrofit them to B748 specs..... They sure could save a lot of time...

Yves.



we are the boeing... resistance is futile...You will be assimilated
User currently offlineSwissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13893 times:

Quoting BCAInfoSys (Reply 7):
Even if it never sells in huge numbers, given the relatively low-cost for developing this new member of the 747 family, Boeing has found another winner.

We have to wait and see what the actual amount would be.....

Quoting A5XX (Reply 6):
Poor reading of the market, or bruised ego?

Perhaps try to protect their VLA market, remember we have no real data available in regard of the performance of the 380 and it is extremely quite around these numbers, what if they are even better than expected????

Maybe B will end up just like AB with the "350" and would have to spend a lot
more bling bling than they thought they would have to.............

Cheers,


User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5628 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13893 times:

Quoting A5XX (Reply 6):

I am sure that someone else will reiterate/confirm this but I believe Boeing said that there was not sufficient market for two "new design" VLA's. They are taking the "cheap" route and carving off some of the A380's (-800) market. Good competitve move I think.

Now when the -900 comes out THAT will be a whole different story.

Tug



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31060 posts, RR: 87
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13880 times:
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Quoting A5XX (Reply 6):
Poor reading of the market, or bruised ego?

Boeing never believed two all-new 500+seat planes would ever generate a positive return on the investment at a program level. Considering "conventional wisdom" states Airbus has to triple their current A380 orders before they do so (again, at a program level - not a per frame level), even if Boeing had nailed their VLA perfectly, that would still require 250 or so orders. Add that to the 450 Airbus needs and you're now at 700 frames. That's a lot of lift...

But Boeing never "misread" the market, as they did launch three variants to try and address it on the lower end - the 747-600, 747-X, and 747-8. The first was too expensive (no A380 at the time), the second was too ineffecient compared to the A3XX, and the jury is still out on the third.


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13854 times:

what is the total development cost for the 748 programme?

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13821 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
Boeing never believed two all-new 500+seat planes would ever generate a positive return on the investment at a program level.

And all these people who put forth the "boeing said there was no market" LIE are also ignoring something else.

Airbus really screwed up the A380F, and Boeing saw this open door and decided to walk through. The 748I is as much a "well, we are doing the F anyway, so offering a pax version is an incremental cost" than a true response to overwhelming demand at this time.

After all, if there were overwhelming demand, the 748I would have some orders already, and the 380 would be selling more robustly.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineA5XX From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13804 times:

Quoting Tugger (Reply 10):
They are taking the "cheap" route and carving off some of the A380's (-800) market.



So Boeing will improve the "soup of the day"  (Now tastes better)

Do you mean to suggest potential B748 buyers, will end up buying a 69' Chevelle, with leather seats, and a fuel injected 396 engine? (just kidding here, since I really LOVE those 396 Chevy's with Mickey Thompson slicks!!!   )

Cheers!

Yves.

[Edited 2006-07-27 00:57:33]


we are the boeing... resistance is futile...You will be assimilated
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13779 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
Airbus really screwed up the A380F

Im what way?


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31060 posts, RR: 87
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13739 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
Airbus really screwed up the A380F...

I believe the jury is still out on this one, as well. World cargo traffic patterns are based at least in part on a 747's stage length at max payload. The A380F can carry more payload farther, or the same amount of payload a good deal farther. So the A380F could open new, more direct cargo routes.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
Boeing saw this open door and decided to walk through.

On this point, I do agree. The GEnx engines and other technologies adapted from the 787 program result in a lighter (per unit of structure) and more efficient airframe, which makes it a more efficient cargo-hauler then the 744F, which itself was still selling well even in the face of the A380F.

So I do believe that when Boeing did the Cost-Benefit analysis, they decided that the 747-8F would return a positive program ROI so it was worth launching. The 748I then rode it's coat-tails since until one is actually ordered*, the development costs are quite low.

* - And since the first one ordered is a ViP, I wonder if Boeing could use the 747-8F as the structure (should no other 748I orders materialize) and not have to spend the cash formally developing and certifying the 748I.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 13676 times:

The 380F MIGHT be able to expand "point to point" routes, but being so large, those must be pretty dynamic points. The 777F also attempts this same feat, but being a smaller jet, makes more sense for some of these routes. P2P with the largest jet on the market is a small niche.

Otherwise, because the cargo system is based on the range of the 747 and MD11 type heavy freighters, there is huge infrastructure in place that won't be abandoned or moved based on the increased range of a limited number of A380s.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 15):
Im what way?

Because it is wasteful for anything but package freight, carrying so much dead weight around. And cargo carriers so far are not that excited by it outside of UPS and FedEx. I think once Boeing saw that the 380F wasn't selling, and that UPS was buying 744Fs as well, they saw an opening that made the launch a reality rather than a red herring to drive the price of the 380 down.

The weak link of the 380 is cargo, both in the F version and the Pax version. The 748 has advantages there in both versions, as do planes like the 787 and 350. Once you put pax bags into a 388, there's little room for revenue cargo nor available TOW for it anyway.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineA5XX From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 13631 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
The weak link of the 380 is cargo, both in the F version and the Pax version. The 748 has advantages there in both versions, as do planes like the 787 and 350. Once you put pax bags into a 388, there's little room for revenue cargo nor available TOW for it anyway.

What about the B748 wings? 500 pax+ luggage + freight..... Much more than the A380... OK   Of course, the B748 wings have unlimited lift?   

Yves.

[Edited 2006-07-27 01:24:19]


we are the boeing... resistance is futile...You will be assimilated
User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5628 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 13601 times:

Quoting A5XX (Reply 18):

Uneducated comment:
If it flies, it has enough lift.

Tug



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineA5XX From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 13585 times:

Quoting Tugger (Reply 19):
Uneducated comment:
If it flies, it has enough lift.

Read my comments again, and then think about it for a few seconds. Perhaps you'll understand.

Yves.



we are the boeing... resistance is futile...You will be assimilated
User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5628 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 13486 times:

[quote=A5XX,reply=20]
I am guessing you are speaking about the TOW but based on the comment he was referring to the fact the the A380 is maxing out it's TOW. Which for the 380 I think has more to do with the engines than the wings.

Then again I may be speaking out of my backside.

Tug



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 13486 times:

Relax, Yves (A5XX), we're not saying the 747-8 is better overall than the A380, just that it has specific advantages in some areas that will make it a reasonable competitor, despite the age of the basic design.

Quoting Swissy (Reply 9):
Maybe B will end up just like AB with the "350" and would have to spend a lot
more bling bling than they thought they would have to.............

It's not the same situation; the much smaller size of the VLA market that Boeing projects doesn't warrant it to spend nearly the amount it and Airbus are investing in mid-size jets. Since Airbus already has a lock on the bulk of this market, another all-new VLA would be sheer folly at this time.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 12):
what is the total development cost for the 748 programme?

I've yet to read a firm figure on this but I'd be surprised if it's too much over $4 billion. That was about what the more ambitious 747X of 6 years ago was supposed to cost. Even allowing for 5+ years inflation, the 747-8 is not radically changed from the 747-400ER, aside from its heavily modified wings and GEnx engines mostly ported over from the 787. Aside from the stretch, there aren't major fuselage changes. Its development cost is a song compared to the A380 because most of the airplane is already done.


User currently offlineA5XX From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 13421 times:

Quoting Tugger (Reply 21):
am guessing you are speaking about the TOW but based on the comment he was referring to the fact the the A380 is maxing out it's TOW. Which for the 380 I think has more to do with the engines than the wings.

The current A380 wing was developped for all the A380 variants.... The A388 being the smallest of all the A380 variants.

Of course, you can stretch the 747 design, as much as you want, but unless you put MUCH more powerful engines on the B748, (Compared to what the B744 currently has), with it's current wing, i just can't see how the B748 can beat the A380 wing design. If you need more power, to take off, and stay aloft, it means more fuel will be consumed.... The F-104 had no wings too (sort of)

If they need to put new wings on the B748, it means that Boeing will have to go through certification again, since this would be basically a new aircraft.

No market for VLA? Right..

Yves.



we are the boeing... resistance is futile...You will be assimilated
User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 13380 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Has a 496 seat capacity without compromising range been discussed before?

lol

 biggrin 

Where's the Z-Man "Zvezda", when you need 'em .

This is intriguing & a smart move on Boeing's part .

Take your time Boeing !

Halibut


25 Post contains images Tugger : You do realize you going to get **whacked** for that don't you. Yes, I understand that the wing is designed/rated for all variants (What about the wi
26 A5XX : Right. My point was that the current B74X wing design is limited. Boeing will not be able to stretch the B74X ad infinitum, hence the A380 advantage,
27 BoeingBus : Dude, shut up! such thoughtless and pathetic statements. Boeing never said there was no market.... Of course there is as Airbus sold 139 copies. Boei
28 Kaitak744 : Yo, give him a break. Boeing is using the structure of the 747-400 wing, but they are redesigning the leading and trailing edges (more efficient lift
29 Brendows : But have Boeing talked about stretching the 747 further than what's the case with the 748F, no. Why not? The 744 wing is a highly effective wing, and
30 Post contains images A5XX : I agree. The B748 will be a potent competitor. But in the way I see it, right now, it's like you are comparing the B747SP pax and cargo capabilities,
31 Stitch : Insufficient lift is not why an A380 can't carry as much cargo as a 744 or 748 can. It's because the A380's lower cargo holds are physically smaller
32 Kaitak744 : And Airbus won't be able to "stretch the A380 ad infinitum." Stretching an aircraft takes more than just wing. You need, especially in the A380's cas
33 Post contains images A5XX : So you think the 1000's of Airbus engineers, who studied their shit at the same schools Boeing engineers did, don't know how to design an efficient w
34 Post contains images Kaitak744 : Ha, I totally agree. I have been trying to convince some people here on A.net that Airbus's claim that the A380 carries more cargo than the 747 is fa
35 A5XX : The A380 has not yet flown commercially, yet most of the Boeing cheerleaders know how many suit cases can be fitted in the A380 cargo hold... Is it a
36 Khobar : Would you care to venture a guess as to how much such a car costs on the market currently, in like-new/reconditioned condition? Talk about irony... T
37 Post contains images A5XX : I know! I could tell you, but then i'd have to kill you, cause it's classified.    Why do you think i used this particular example? No leather seat
38 Zeke : I was of the understanding that the current production 747-400ER has a cargo capacity of between 140-160 m^3, less than that of a A330-300 or the A38
39 Zoom1018 : I am sorry, but Boeing has never stated that there is no market for VLA! Please do check the information before criticising!
40 Post contains images Jacobin777 : the GeNX engines will basically be the final engines for the 748....there isn't the added cost.....Boeing admits to Airbus having a better wing desig
41 F14ATomcat : Kind of makes you wonder why they couldn't get the required 150% of max design load. Maybe the -900 is design to carry 800 pygmies in luxurious comfo
42 Khobar : You did include a smiley and made clear that those particular remarks were not to be taken seriously, and I didn't see the forest for the trees. Oh w
43 Post contains images Aeroplan73 : I don't know much about the 748, other than the engine cowlings look like shark teeth. What exactly are they doing that makes it so different from a
44 Post contains images DfwRevolution : That's like saying any airline could by a 737-300 or A300 from the desert and upgrade them into new 737NG or an A330. It's not possible. You've said
45 Post contains links and images WingedMigrator : Hey, I'm not Keesje, but please allow me to cut in... To do an apples-to-apples comparison you need the same class mix (percentages) and the same sea
46 FlyDreamliner : Maybe a little of both, I think the biggest thing is that in surveying their potential customers, Boeing is finding out what their buyers want is a l
47 Cloudy : The A380's "expandability" will not mean much because by the time a significant market develops for the A380-900, Boeing will have built Y3. Y3 is a c
48 PolymerPlane : but A388 cannot fly 8000NM with 571. I think that's why Airbus only quotes the typical pax payload at 555, for the range trade-off. Usually Airbus li
49 Zvezda : Boeing never said that. It may also be the largest WhaleJet variant. BTW, a smaller WhaleJet was once envisioned, but Airbus have realized that its s
50 Darrenthe747 : A5XX, maybe you should write a letter to Boeing since they have absolutely no idea how to run their business.
51 Post contains images WingedMigrator : Quite true. On the other hand, the A380's nose, wing root fairing and tail were all designed with the latest CFD and optimized as a system to minimiz
52 Post contains images Astuteman : Engines, dear boy, engines. The availability of the GEnx has prompted the 747-8, nothing else Undoubtedly - the wing is aerodynamically good for 750T
53 Chiad : The 748i of Boeing reminds me somehow of the A350 of Airbus, where the manufacture keep changing the configuration of a cheaper existing model to comp
54 MarkHKG : Doesn't the number of pax they can cram into the B748 eventually come down to one thing, evacuation certification? The number of doors will physiciall
55 Post contains images Johnny : @Ikramerica "That's not a real 496 though. But it would be a real 450 depending on configuration" Absolutely!!! I think Boeing has realized that the o
56 Post contains images Johnny : @ Cloudy "This is the true problem with the A380. It is the last plane built with yesterday's technology. That is true of every plane to some extent,
57 Post contains images Brendows : I didn't say that the Airbus engineers don't know how to build efficient wings, or don't understand the basic laws of aerodynamics. As Jacobin777 say
58 Post contains images Danny : Obviously you assumed that yet another stretch for 747 will add zero weight
59 Brendows : Boeing has stated that a further stretch to allow 496 pax would reduce the range to about 8000-8100nm. If you look at the payload range-chart for the
60 Aviator27 : So far Boeing has sold a grand total of one (1) B748I. I think it went to some Emir in the "Middle East". The freighter program,however, has been more
61 DeltaDC9 : When will this myth die? Just how many 744s do you think are idle with no future? Yes it will, but maybe not in the way you think. The 748 simply all
62 DfwRevolution : It's probably marginal at best considering that wing properties constitute much more of the aerodynamic performance of the aircraft than the fuselage
63 Swissy : Good question but Boeing said the VLA market is not big enough today which I agree with 100% however more and more people start flying and I see a ve
64 DeltaDC9 : Which is when Boeing will be marketing Y3. Market timing is everything. They were proactive not reactive with Yellowstone, it is playing out right no
65 Rheinbote : Are you referring to Vision 2016, Boeing's 20-year strategy launched in 1996? Or to the Aircraft Creation Process Strategy (ACPS) which was launched
66 Brendows : There's a difference, a big one. The A330NG (later A350) was launched to compete directly with the 787, while the 748i have never been considered a d
67 OldAeroGuy : No, the A388's lower lobe is larger than the 744. The problem is that it isn't enough larger to accommodate the additional passenger baggage on the A
68 Post contains images Stitch : I was not aware that a plane had to fly commercially in order for it's physical dimensions to be measured... No I am not sure, and as I look back I a
69 Ikramerica : Fine. Show me the 748i brochure with 496 seats... Why, because it suits you? I've done presentations a couple times to show that with the same ratios
70 ERAUgrad02 : Anyway boeing could do the standard 747-8 and then the longer one the -9? Probably not a cost effective move huh? Desmond,
71 Stitch : The 747-8 is pretty much at the limit for stretches for the airframe. Boeing might be able to get more out of her by lightening the fuselage with new
72 BoeingBus : The 744 has achieved its ROI and then some. The 748 program is much cheaper than building a whole new plane? So any new tooling is expected on a proj
73 Ikramerica : I'd like to see Boeing go back to the 747 original length and offer both a 747-8i (current 744 size) and a 747-9i (full stretch) at 415 and 495 seats.
74 A5XX : This thread has been interesting so far. However, i still think the only viable B748 version, is the freighter version, because of the B748F front loa
75 Brendows : Why won't you call the 748i a viably version? What does it not offer airlines compared to the A380 and the smaller A346/77W?
76 A5XX : The possibility to evolve. Yves.
77 Ikramerica : Explain that. In theory, the 747 could continue to evolve over the years. I doubt it will, but in 10 years you could do another new wing, another set
78 Tugger : The exact thing that you are saying is one of the prime reasons why it is viable: The airplane is in current fleets, the "switch-over" costs are very
79 Stitch : Not a bad analogy on the meta-level. The trick is, Boeing owned the market. It was Airbus that had to invest substantially to crack it. Now, if Boein
80 PolymerPlane : How does this have anything to do with aircraft sales? A346, B773ER, A321, B737-900, A333, etc. are all top of the line model with a small to none ro
81 Joni : This depends on the premium product you can offer on the larger jet - if it's compelling then it can capture a larger share of the premium traffic.
82 Atmx2000 : Uhm, perhaps you should have left out the A346.
83 Post contains images A5XX : Yup! It could. But why would Boeing continue to invest huge amounts of money, on the B74X or other VLA development, while saying, at the same time, t
84 Post contains images Swissy : Agree the market did not grow too much in the past, and high fuel prices have a big impact for airlines to make a decision to get new metal........ w
85 Post contains images 787engineer : The 748's wing will be more efficient and will obviously provide more lift than the 744's. Engines get the plane moving forward, but provide very lit
86 Brendows : Boeing said that the market wasn't big enough to make two new airplanes (the A380 and a completely new Boeing airplane.) That's why they went along w
87 Post contains images WingedMigrator : You're not seriously suggesting that one family can cover everything from 300 to 500 seats and up? That 540 seat figure is when you only compensate f
88 PPVRA : I think it would be wise for Boeing to up the 748i and steer clear of the A350XWB competition. And yes, IMHO the 748i can offer competition for the A
89 A5XX : Boeing makes planes, not engines. Sooo, to power the planes it makes, it has to buy what's available... Nothing new here.. Funny how things work out.
90 DfwRevolution : And what point are you possibly trying to make? To the casual observer, you appear totally clueless. You probably disagree with that branding, so why
91 PolymerPlane : what's with all the negativity. No, Boeing does not just buy what's available. Boeing, just like Airbus, works with the engine manufacturer in develo
92 AvObserver : No way will Boeing spend a ton of money on this market at this time; it's been said numerous times in this thread: the 748 pretty much maxes out the
93 A5XX : It works that way, most of the time. But not always... Sometimes, they can't (A350XWB-1k/GE90-115). Airbus would certainly like to work with GE, to d
94 Stitch : Uh, yeah... Airbus sure was lucky RR and EA both had engines lying around that could power the A380, weren't they? And Boeing! RR and GE must both ha
95 Post contains images Swissy : Very well spoken!!!! However a lot depends on the 787 in B future and yes so far they are more or less on target . We have to wait and see what the r
96 A5XX : Maybe you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. I agree 90% with what 787engineer said in this case. Yes, most of the time, it works that way
97 Zeke : The fan diameter on the 748 is smaller than the 787/350 due to physical constraints. In my view the investment that they are making is a dead end, th
98 Post contains images Ikramerica : And yet there is still no proof that this moderate investment will pay off. Only time will tell. But surely a $15Billion investment would have been f
99 Post contains images WingedMigrator : Sorry I didn't make myself clear. To summarize posts 45 and 89: B748I @ 496 = A388 @ 571 B748I @ 450 = A388 @ 563 Please take the time to understand
100 A5XX : What makes you think that??? If you're not willing to invest your money, you can be sure you'll never gain from it. Those who try, well.. sometimes t
101 Zoom1018 : I think it is more about long-range twiner vs quads that people often quote Airbus here!
102 SparkingWave : That certainly sounds true... But the 747 program is still viable and this design is holding its own against the A380. What does that say about the 7
103 Cloudy : The 747-8 will be the last 747-8 ever built, Boeing admits that. Yet it is still economically competitive with the A380. Why is this so? Because it w
104 Post contains images Kaitak744 : You might want to add to that 2 things: High speed and non-oil consuming engines.
105 Post contains images WingedMigrator : I think that if the A389 ever sees the light of day, it will have '787 tech' as you call it, in the form of new engines handed down from the A350X. I
106 Post contains images Zvezda : For all the problems the WhaleJet programme has, this is not one of them. All of the 23 or 24 airports that will accomodate the WhaleJet in regular p
107 Post contains images Art : A year or so ago Boeing was saying that the market for VLA's was much smaller than they say it is now.The way I see it is that their PR machine was p
108 Zvezda : Airlines don't buy airliners for the possibility that a derivative may offer better performance i.e. airlines aren't buying abstract designs. Airline
109 Post contains images AS384 : Would the mooted stretch of the B748I design to accomodate (a notional) 496 three class passengers create a "product gap" between the B773ER and the B
110 DeltaDC9 : No, I am suggesting that they will concentrate on their large market segments, and let the VLA market mature while they milk their big planes. Y3 cou
111 Sphealey : > The 747-8 will be the last 747-8 ever built, > Boeing admits that. Yet it is still economically > competitive with the A380. Why is this so? I think
112 DeltaDC9 : A good example is the steam locomotive.
113 Post contains images Astuteman : Must be a shipbuilding thing - when we want to strengthen a particular structure, we add additional "stiffening" - if you want to be picky. You're qu
114 Swissy : Since most of us are pros. or they think they are, what would be your opinion about were is more room left for improvements. A: Aircraft design/effice
115 Zeke : Anyone able to confirm that one of the reasons why the 748 is lighter is that it will be designed to FAR Part 25 effective February 1, 1965 under gran
116 Zvezda : Boeing long considered a B777-400X. The idea was decisively put to rest when the B747-8I SuperJumbo was launched. Boeing will not produce both. I don
117 PolymerPlane : What are the 21st century design requirements from regulators point of view? Which part of FAR is different in certifying B747 and A380? Cheers, PP
118 Post contains links Zeke : FAR 25 has had about 120 amendments since then, each amendment changes many paragraphs in the FAR. http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...y/rgFAR.nsf
119 MD-90 : The 737NG were designed as ammendments to the original certification.
120 Post contains images Jacobin777 : unless.. 1)Boeing drops the weight of the 777 significantly (which they say the will) 2)carriers want to go 10-abreast ala-EK..
121 Stitch : Or perhaps airlines that didn't express interest in either the A380 or the 747-X now are expressing interest in the 747-8, which is increasing the ma
122 Rheinbote : Or a typewriter. They were even given internal memory and programmable 'macro' functions in a largely futile attempt to keep up with the IBM PC.
123 Sphealey : > Or a typewriter. They were even given internal > memory and programmable 'macro' functions > in a largely futile attempt to keep up with the > IBM P
124 ERAUgrad02 : this is exactly what i ment by my comment. but it was misunderstood but lengthening the 800 further. wasnt saying that. but im on the same page with
125 Zvezda : 7 tonnes would not be enough. That and a reduction in SFC to about 0.500 or so would put the B777 back in the game. Seems unlikely. Remember, EK has
126 Art : Could be. If that is the case, I would expect to start seeing orders for the 748-I in the near future. If the airlines are telling Boeing that they a
127 Post contains images Jacobin777 : it could be the way other carriers go....the A350-1000 wouldn't be able to fit 10-abreast... I'm sure they will pressure GE to get them to update the
128 Zvezda : By that time, after spending perhaps $3 or 4B on additional development, Boeing could have had a better aircraft for less money by building a B787-11
129 BlueSky1976 : Boeing engineers admitted a few months ago that A380 has the most efficient wing for its size. Also, the fact that 747-500X/-600X had pretty much ver
130 Brendows : Exactly, for its (the A380s) size, and not necessarily for the size of the 748. It would be a phenomenal aircraft in terms of cargo hold volume, but
131 Ikramerica : it's only 33" on their new 772s, and there are other airlines with 33 and 34" pitch with 9Y. Boeing may be able to trim 2" off the internal insulatio
132 Zvezda : The B787 wing is good for at least 640,000 lbs TOW. A 640,000 lbs B787 would need more powerful engines, an additional two-wheel centre-bogey, and so
133 Post contains images BoomBoom : The "old straw man" argument again Astuteman, you just can't help yourself... Come on, if they're so frequent ,you should have no problem coming up w
134 Post contains images Rheinbote : Fully appreciated here. If you read last week's article titled "Course Correction - New Management Eyes Big Changes for Airbus", you'll find that EAD
135 Cloudy : The 787 covers the lower part of the range. If there is a true market for it, the Y3 will be able to cover everything between a super stretched 787-1
136 A342 : To stay on topic, there is one thing which all of you seem to have forgotten: When the 748 gets bigger, current A380 customers will lose interest in i
137 Joni : What do you mean by this?
138 Zvezda : I would guess that Cloudy was referring to the fact that one can build a wider range of structurally efficient shapes from CFRP than from metals. Exa
139 Stitch : When Boeing first offered the 747-X, LH decided the higher capacity of the A380 was better. Then when 9/11 and SARS hammered traffic, LH wanted the 7
140 Post contains links and images Leelaw : I offered this article for the forum's consideration last week, but as yet, the A.net onnisciente couldn't find anything therein worth discussing: AW
141 Post contains images Jacobin777 : intersting compares and contrasts.......I still don't believe a lot of the "weight saving" work on the 777 has been done...its been selling fine as i
142 DeltaDC9 : As I said above, I do not think that Y3 must be limited to one plane. Must have missed that one. Wonder why everyone thinks the GE90 wont evolve? Als
143 Ikramerica : Exactly. When compared to the heavy and thirsty 340, Boeing didn't need to spend money on structural lightening. They instead spent it on improved wi
144 Astuteman : The REAL genuine advantage that I see the A350 - 1000 has over the 777 is that it is designed "with the new generation engine in mind". It's not just
145 Post contains links Rheinbote : Me too, as the same article also revealed the root causes for the A380 wiring problems. See my reply http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_a
146 Zvezda : I see the B787 as very competitive with the A350 -- to the benefit of the airlines and their passengers. I don't see the B777 as being competitive wi
147 Post contains links Keesje : It seems to me the 747Adv / 747-8i is still attracting overwhelming interest from at least 20 airlines and will soon be ordered. I will set a new benc
148 Glacote : That sounds interesting - would you have more material on this? Thanks for your (as usual) informative posts...
149 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : No one is saying GE won't improve them monsters...the problem is the GEnx can't get to such a high rated 95k thrust...its pushing the thrust limit fo
150 Zvezda : It's not something I read. I just understand the materials. An analogy would be the change from constructing buildings from unreinforced masonry (16
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