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Delta To Fly JFK-LGW  
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3262 posts, RR: 35
Posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11723 times:

Isn't this interesting.

http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/060728/102896.html

163 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11700 times:

Haven't I been saying for months that DL would find a way to serve this most important market... the one they call the Crown Jewel.

Gives CO and AA one less advantage over DL in NYC... esp. in negotiating corporate agreements.

JFKNRT is the last major route left on the hit list.

This also is notable in that it marks UA’s continued deterioration in the NE. Gotta be a sad day for some UA employees.

[Edited 2006-07-28 15:51:06]

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11679 times:

LGW - JFK CO nice comfy PTV 772 excellent service.

or

LGW - JFK DL ancient 763 NO PTV crappy service.

Let me see....

Ummmm.....

Can you repeat the question?



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3262 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11637 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
LGW - JFK CO nice comfy PTV 772 excellent service.

or

LGW - JFK DL ancient 763 NO PTV crappy service.

Let me see....

Ummmm.....

Can you repeat the question?

Well, your point might make sense if CO served LGW-JFK, but they don't.

And even if they did, the money is made in the front cabin, and the products their are roughly comparable. And very few actual customers care about a 777 vs a 767. Really.

LGW vs. LHR is the long-term competitive challenge for Delta here, not EWR vs. JFK.

[Edited 2006-07-28 15:50:10]

User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3262 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11610 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 1):
Haven't I been saying for months that DL would find a way to serve this most important market... the one they call the Crown Jewel.

I think all of WorldTraveler's critics should at least acknowledge that he did make this call. Certainly adds a little credibility to some of his insight.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11610 times:

You also fail to note that DL is putting PTVs up front on all of their 767s and throughout the planes on the 764s and 777s. Thankfully, the British and America people both are largely literate and most can stomach the thought of reading a book for 7 hours and change.

User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11587 times:

Well this was the missing link in Delta Airlines system. Congrats to Delta for a route that is sure to fill the gap in the network! SKYTEAM needed this route for a very long time!

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11587 times:

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 3):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
LGW - JFK CO nice comfy PTV 772 excellent service.

or

LGW - JFK DL ancient 763 NO PTV crappy service.

Let me see....

Ummmm.....

Can you repeat the question?

Well, your point might make sense if CO served LGW-JFK, but they don't.

And even if they did, the money is made in the front cabin, and the products their are roughly comparable. And very few actual customers care about a 777 vs a 767. Really.

LGW vs. LHR is the long-term competitive challenge for Delta here, not EWR vs. JFK.

LOL sorry my bad - not enough coffee!



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 45
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11555 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
You also fail to note that DL is putting PTVs up front on all of their 767s and throughout the planes on the 764s and 777s. Thankfully, the British and America people both are largely literate and most can stomach the thought of reading a book for 7 hours and change.

Not to mention the latest on the back of the bus on the 767s...

But that will come in time  Wink



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11497 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
You also fail to note that DL is putting PTVs up front on all of their 767s and throughout the planes on the 764s and 777s. Thankfully, the British and America people both are largely literate and most can stomach the thought of reading a book for 7 hours and change.

LOL...

Heaven forbid that someone be well read this day in age..  wink 

P.S.

World Traveler, Alitalia 744... How many people on here said that JFK-LGW would never happen?


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6603 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11480 times:

This is an important route for DL as they will never be the player they want at JFK without access to London. Of course, whether DL will make money on this route is a different story. NYC-LON can be a notorious money loser in the winter and tough even in the summer.

User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11437 times:

This also validates my point that I made over and over again that DL couldn’t begin JFKLGW service even if it wanted to because of the restrictions in Bermuda II. NYC-London is a restricted access market to both LHR and LGW. DL obviously will be flying JFKLGW now because it bought its way into the market, not because it previously could but decided not to.

User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11425 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 10):
This is an important route for DL as they will never be the player they want at JFK without access to London. Of course, whether DL will make money on this route is a different story. NYC-LON can be a notorious money loser in the winter and tough even in the summer.

I am skeptical of this route as well. LHR is without a doubt the preferred airport for business pax. However, even if it loses money, I can't see DL letting this route go especially after all they have done to get it. Hell, CO makes it work across the river. If DL truly builds JFK into a hub, perhaps the feed can make it work.



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4009 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11402 times:

It is shame on the American and British governments that this 1950's transaction is taking place. Delta should be free to serve any market in the UK it wants without having to purchase an "authority" from another airline. Aren't the USA and the UK realms of freer markets?

User currently offlineAirMailer From United States of America, joined May 2006, 465 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11379 times:

"
Delta To Buy NY-London Route Authority From UAL >DALRQ


DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
July 28, 2006 9:55 a.m.

DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

Delta Air Lines Inc. (DALRQ) reached a definitive agreement with Chicago-based UAL Corp. (UAUA) to acquire the route authority to serve London's Gatwick Airport nonstop from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport.

Terms of the deal weren't disclosed.
"

I though that everyone on here was convinced that DL was too broke to be purchasing rights like these.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11379 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 11):
NYC-London is a restricted access market to both LHR and LGW.

Under Bermuda II, EVERY market to LHR and LGW is restricted to a maximum of 1 carrier on each side unless certain market-size thresholds are exceeded, in which case an additional carrier can be authorised. There are also 2 sets of city pairs for each side whereby an additional carrier can operate. This leaves a de-facto maximum of 3 carriers from each side as a theoretical maximum competing on a single route.

This is also the reason why MaxJet and EOS are forced to serve Stansted rather than Gatwick.

[Edited 2006-07-28 16:26:16]

User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3262 posts, RR: 35
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11379 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 10):
This is an important route for DL as they will never be the player they want at JFK without access to London. Of course, whether DL will make money on this route is a different story. NYC-LON can be a notorious money loser in the winter and tough even in the summer.

Excellent point. In fact, it isn't likely to make money in its own right for ages. Maybe not even until they can move it to LHR, if then. BUT, what it does do is make them competitive for major corporate contrats that they had been previously shut out of, or at least disadvantaged with. It also allows access to London for Delta customers in the northeast, further cementing the carrier as their full-service airline of choice.

Another thought...NW and UA have both exited the JFK-NRT market. While this is a dubious statement on the economics of the market, it is probably also an indictment on each carriers position in the NYC market. Anyone care to place bets on how soon Delta goes after JFK-NRT?


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11351 times:

Tin,
I will reiterate again. DL and CO have consistently had better average fares from their ATL/CVG/EWR/IAH gateways to LGW than UA has had from either JFK or even – get this – ORD – to LHR. UA has not been able to get a fare premium to LHR over DL and CO to LGW from its hometown hub to LHR.

LHR is not in any way a guarantee of success. And neither is LGW a sentence to lose money.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11529 posts, RR: 61
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11319 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
DL and CO have consistently had better average fares from their ATL/CVG/EWR/IAH gateways to LGW than UA has had from either JFK or even – get this – ORD – to LHR

I think this is largely more a function of United's dwindling corporate contract presence in the New York area, and United's overall shrinkage in the London market vis-a-vis American and BA.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
And neither is LGW a sentence to lose money.

From JFK, I think it is. I simply fail to see how this is really going to change the corporate contract situation for Delta in New York. Sure, there will be companies who now shift business to Delta because they will offer a link to London (as long as it may or may not last) but I still feel that the vast majority of the big, high-dollar corporate contract players in the New York-London market want Heathrow. They are not going to shift business to Delta which is going to get them to Gatwick, when American can get them to Heathrow 6x per day and BA can 7x per day.


User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11304 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 13):
It is shame on the American and British governments that this 1950's transaction is taking place.

The British need it to protect the interest of archaic British Airways...


User currently offlineAirMailer From United States of America, joined May 2006, 465 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11304 times:

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 4):
I think all of WorldTraveler's critics should at least acknowledge that he did make this call. Certainly adds a little credibility to some of his insight.

I believe that you did call this one in fact. Good Job!
Now just remember that Delta sucks, CO rules, and DL will loose Billions of $ operating this route.  Wink

I can't believe that DL plans to start this service before the end of the year, but I guess why wait?


User currently offlineAwysBSB From Brazil, joined Sep 2005, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11285 times:

JFK-LGW-JFK would be great for a LCC, as those airports are peripheral.
Could Song operate that route?


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 45
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11268 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18):
From JFK, I think it is. I simply fail to see how this is really going to change the corporate contract situation for Delta in New York. Sure, there will be companies who now shift business to Delta because they will offer a link to London (as long as it may or may not last) but I still feel that the vast majority of the big, high-dollar corporate contract players in the New York-London market want Heathrow. They are not going to shift business to Delta which is going to get them to Gatwick, when American can get them to Heathrow 6x per day and BA can 7x per day.

$ talks and bullshit walks. If DL offers them a contract for less money than AA, they'll shift. Todays' market is ruled by lowest cost across the board - look at how corporate travel contracts work



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11268 times:

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 4):
I think all of WorldTraveler's critics should at least acknowledge that he did make this call. Certainly adds a little credibility to some of his insight

He did make this call, and he does deserve the due credit for this...


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11529 posts, RR: 61
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11247 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 22):
If DL offers them a contract for less money than AA, they'll shift.

And if Delta is giving away corporate contracts "for less money than AA" on a regular basis, and tying up premium BizElite seats with these cheapo contracts, how are they supposed to make money on the route?

(And, by the way, Alitalia744, I want to make it clear that I agree with you completely -- heavily discounting of corporate contracts is indeed exactly how I anticipate Delta is going to approach the market.)


25 WorldTraveler : Thank you. I’ve said that for years but all the “experts” here were convinced that LGW is not a restricted access airport. Amazing that someone
26 BHXDTW : Didnt DL operate the JFK route into LGW a while back still with a 763 ?? I think they did.... why did they stop ? Im guessing it was post 9/11 ?? Joe
27 MalpensaSFO : Delta Airlines has to do what it has to do in the market. In addition Delta Airlines is supported heavily by tour operators that can use Delta for al
28 DLPMMM : A small note to think of for those who say it can't work, DL will be the ONLY airline offering non-stop JFK-LGW. There are alot of people and business
29 AirMailer : I thought that the 763ERs were getting PTVs throughout. It was going to take a while, but I'm pretty sure that it's in the pipeline. Please Someone C
30 Post contains images Alitalia744 : Shhh...
31 Post contains images Commavia : I do understand the corporate arena. I understand that there are thousands of people each week that fly between New York and London, many of them ver
32 MalpensaSFO : It is what fills UAL from HNL-Japan, SEA-Japan, LAX-Japan It is what fills NWA from HNL-Japan, SEA-Japan, LAX-Japan
33 BCAL : Why does everyone equate Bermuda II solely with BA? VS is the other designated UK carrier, and the US carriers are AA and UA, all of whose interests
34 Richierich : What are the chances of BA or even VS adding a LGW-JFK service to combat DL? For me personally, I have no problem flying to LGW for my UK/London needs
35 Dutchjet : This certainly will be interesting to watch.....the big question is whether Delta can make the JFK-LGW route work, there are very well reasoned agruem
36 DLPMMM : Other than Laker Skytrain, I don't know that anyone else has tried JFK-LGW. Seems that everyone automatically went LHR.
37 Dutchjet : BA had a JFK-LGW flight for years, one flight per day, in addition to their Heathrow services. It was dropped a few years ago.
38 BCAL : BA had a LGW-JFK service, which they inherited from their merger with British Caledonian in the late 1980s. IIRC, the service was then routed via MAN
39 RayChuang : Why bother. Given that BA and VS already can fly to JFK from LHR anyway, they'll never do it.
40 Kiwiandrew : I don't understand your comment - are you suggesting the JFK is UA's 'hometown' ? If so I think you need to check a route map . The point is not that
41 Jumbojet : With what aircraft? correct me if I am wrong but with the start up of JFK to BOM on November 1st, doesnt that tie up all DL's T7's on routes that req
42 BCAL : British Caledonian operated the route in the 1970s and 1980s. It was temporarily dropped in the late 1970s, when all airlines were experiencing diffi
43 TinPusher007 : I am certainly no expert... True. Also true. You are 3 for 3.
44 Klwright69 : WT, I think you take things too far sometimes....... But I think this is one of your best written and thought out postings!
45 WorldTraveler : Why couldn’t DL use tour operators for JFK-LGW? I doubt if they will need to but there is no reason they couldn’t. It is entirely possible BA wil
46 Burnsie28 : They already had PTV's in their 777's, in fact it had them in 2002. When I flew DL from ATL-FRA-ATL in 2002, walking past the biz class, it looked to
47 AirMailer : Factor in the lead time that they would need for such an announcement... 6 months or so right? Well 6 months from now we will be in the beginning of
48 AirMailer : Don't forget that Boeing will be announcing their ramped up production schedule and subsequent newly availble slots next year for the 787... just in
49 Pilot21 : BCAL, Aer Lingus have 5th freedom rights out of Heathrow? I know they had them out of Manchester, and used them a lot for yrs on their European route
50 Commavia : Who said they couldn't? I was simply stating the obvious, namely that if an airline has to turn to tour operators to fill a plane up, yields probably
51 Kiwiandrew : is that meant to be EI or LY ( El Al ) ??
52 WorldTraveler : I’m fiercely competitive. I do things I win at. I post here in discussions in which I will be the leader. It’s who I am. Perhaps a GE kind of thi
53 Alitalia744 : Look for reconfigured 764s to ply routes to CDG/FRA and LGW that currently are served with 777s and you got 3-4 777s freed up for expansion!
54 Post contains links and images A340600 : No they're not, BA used to have a LGW/JFK service in addition to LHR. BA did for years from British Caledonian. It was dropped after 9/11. It used to
55 BCAL : It is meant to be Aer Lingus.
56 Kiwiandrew : thanks for that Trevor , didn't LY used to have 5th freedom rights LHR to the US as well ?
57 BCAL : Not as far as I am aware.
58 Richardw : any skyteam flights at LGW apart from the AF flights to LUX?
59 Burnsie28 : DL won't even get their 787's if they ever do order, anytime around when NW does, the new slots just means that the airlines that have slots will get
60 Dutchjet : Honestly, it doesnt matter......the new DL JFK-LGW flight will be all about O&D traffic, plus some connections to/from US cities on the JFK end. Very
61 Post contains links AirMailer : Did anyone else see this? If Open Skies happens in the next 4 years DL gets to stop paying UA for the route athourity. From the WSJ: Terms of the deal
62 B747-437B : BA will struggle to do this without sacrificing another longhaul frequency. Gatwick North is pushing against its terminal capacity ceilings (first se
63 Richardw : Didn't ask about the importance, just wondered about skyteam flights from LGW to Europe that's all. AF used to do BOD and NTE. UX PMI and MAD, CSA PRG
64 Alitalia744 : Ok so what is the big deal? They can fly 777s on the route? By your logic, NWA should fail because they fly older DC9s on routes where other airlines
65 Burnsie28 : What I am saying is that NRT-JFK is a low yeilding route, thus if NW is flying a 787 on that route with over 20% more savings then yes NW will have a
66 B747-437B : Any EU carrier essentially has unrestricted 5th freedom rights out of any other EU airport PROVIDED the destination country is willing to grant the s
67 Alitalia744 : They have the authority. Slots were either sold or leased to FedEx. Latest is they're getting slots back.. not sure from where tho
68 Pilot21 : Yeah, but in the case of UK-US, Bermuda 2 states that only 2 US and 2 UK carriers can serve Heathrow, (along with various other restrictions for othe
69 Captaink : AA?
70 B747-437B : EI = Aer Lingus = neither a UK nor a US carrier. Hence, EI's access to the route would not be governed by treaties between the Governments of the UK
71 B747-437B : Technically, LGW is not a restricted access airport (apart from runway/terminal capacity restrictions). Any airline may fly into Gatwick. It is the m
72 FlyPNS1 : I agree. I think the route will lose money for many years, but it is a necessary part of the corporate contract market. As for JFK-NRT, DL can try it
73 MalpensaSFO : Funny that logic hasnt been used to drop the low yielding HNL-NRT flight by NWA. The reason NWA left the market, was due to several reasons. Of which
74 RwSEA : Off topic, but there are persistent rumors of NW adding back more capacity on SEA-NRT. Perhaps 2x daily, some saying at the expense of PDX. However,
75 MalpensaSFO : That is unknown yet, who at NWA can answer this one?
76 WorldTraveler : Which makes it all the more likely DL will succeed. AA probably is more likely to do it but they would be giving up a frequency at LHR in order to se
77 UnitedFirst : As far as I see it, to a certain extent, JFK-NRT is pretty much moot right now. Unless DL pushed REALLY hard with it's 777 schedule (and at this point
78 RwSEA : Does the 763 have the range to make it reliably? I would think not. And on a tough route with so much competition, there is no way the flight would b
79 LGW : Whether DL makes money on JFK-LGW is yet unknown of course but what I will say is that many a.netters have an unhealthy obsession with LHR, yes the co
80 Post contains images MalpensaSFO : Welcome to my Respected Users List!
81 Dutchjet : 1. With what aircraft......its not a 763 route and arent the 772s already tightly scheduled? 2. Does DL have slots at NRT to open a well timed servic
82 Alitalia744 : 772s can be pulled from ATL-LGW/FRA/CDG and CVG-CDG if needed....
83 MalpensaSFO : The slots when available are at a huge sum.. Bets are on for DL to drop ATL-NRT for an ATL-JFK-NRT.. An outlandish rumor today was ATL-SLC-NRT(777),
84 WorldTraveler : DL could fly JFKNRT, JFKBOM (w/o the ATL tag), ATLNRT, and ATLTLV all with 6 operating aircraft. They could fly one ATL-Europe flight and still have a
85 Commavia : No offense -- and believe me, I'm saying this as a person who loves England, loves London, and much prefers the ease of Gatwick over the chaos of Hea
86 Incitatus : Yes, that is DL main aim simply because there cannot be another aim. The reality is that if Heathrow is opened up the majority if not the entirety of
87 Humberside : No we dont (in my opinion). We need open skies and bmi allowed to fly LHR-US and none of this having to buy the right to fly between LON and NYC and
88 BigGSFO : I imagine DL will make the route work and will keep in on the schedules even if it take awhile to generate a profit. A 767 is not hard to fill and DL
89 Post contains links BCAL : Source: http://www.publications.parliament.u...00/cmselect/cmenvtra/532/53206.htm Para 15[Edited 2006-07-28 20:22:27]
90 Dutchjet : I thought that the 777s were already gone from those routes once ATL-NRT, ATL-TLV and JFK-BOM are all up and running? The addition of Bombay will gre
91 Post contains images RobTrent : Way to go Delta - Good to see this route confirmed. Prefer it to be a T7 but it will depend on the loads I guess. Easier for me if I am at my place in
92 LGAtoIND : I think this is a great move by DL, as I have wondered for years why they didn't connect London with their JFK European gateway. With Delta having a h
93 B747-437B : I would beg to disagree with this. I have done extensive studies of the LHR vs LGW markets and have also worked on slot acquisition/sale/lease broker
94 Delta4eva : DL would not move their NRT flight to JFK. The NRT flight makes good money for DL and is one of the best performing in the system. ATL-NRT was one of
95 Commavia : I'm not saying anything based on any "generalized assumptions." I'm letting the market speak for itself. Once again, whereas others can argue until t
96 B747-437B : No you aren't. You are simply jumping to conclusions based upon your amateur observations of the situation. Markets don't lead you to conclusions, bu
97 Commavia : Answer this one simply question -- very easy, yes or no. Did Continental, Delta, Northwest and USAirways not at one time or another, or at multiple t
98 Post contains images B747-437B : And did not Continental, Delta, Northwest and USAirways at one time or another, or at multiple times, independently and seperate from each of the oth
99 Commavia : That is such a ridiculous comparison; I honestly don't even know how to respond to it, beyond: you have your opinion, I have mine, and I guess only t
100 TinPusher007 : I have to agree with Commavia. This really doesn't answer his very legitimate question. But having said that, your original arguments against him do
101 WorldTraveler : B747-437B, You are a wealth of information and a breath of fresh air. To the rest, DL has built an extensive European route system using its own aircr
102 B747-437B : Our opinions are not any different to be honest. We both agree on the facts of the situation and the interpretation of those facts. It is only the se
103 ANstar : I prefer LGW over LHR as it's never as busy and has a much better BA lounge than LHR. I am pleased there will be another DL tail to look at in the mo
104 Post contains images Commavia : !!! "Just because?" !!! That's the response? Are you guys kidding? You honestly think that Delta wants to fly to Heathrow "just because" "everyone wa
105 Post contains images B747-437B : If his question was anything other than rhetorical, I might have answered it. But we all knew the answer to it and we all knew what conclusion he was
106 Flydl2atl : Delta pushes its connecting European traffic through CDG. As has been stated before this route will make money on O+D. I agree with B747-43B in that
107 Commavia : As do I, I completely agree. Gatwick is an absolute pleasure to deal with compared with the chaos of Heathrow, especially since the BA North Terminal
108 MalpensaSFO : As well as MXP, FCO, and AMS...
109 JFKLGANYC : Kudos to DL and good luck on this route. BTW, for all those who predict failure, keep in mind that DL will be paying for this route authority for 4 ye
110 Commavia : Maybe. That's conditional on whether or not a bilateral is revised between now and then, and thus -- by deduction -- whether or not they can shift th
111 WorldTraveler : I've made it even simpler for you Commavia.
112 SHUPirate1 : Here's what I have to ask...everybody states that if United started DEN-London, that it would have to be to Gatwick, and then British Airways would be
113 Dutchjet : Its part of the Bermuda 2 deal....... AA, BA and VS are designated carriers into LHR.....2 US carriers (originally TW and PA but now AA and UA) and 2
114 Incitatus : Heathrow provides far better access not only into Central London but most office areas around it. The yields that both airports provide are only equi
115 SHUPirate1 : For some reason, I was under the impression that Denver was a Heathrow-designated city from the British side only. Didn't realize that Denver wasn't
116 Post contains links AeroWesty : While over 4 years old now, this thread is still the definitive Bermuda II summary: Bermuda II Synopsis (by B747-437B Jun 12 2002 in Civil Aviation)
117 Post contains images Burnsie28 : Those ran out after the first year. Obviously its not that low yeilding if they fly two daily flights from NRT-HNL and KIX-HNL. Oh right, thats why t
118 Alitalia744 : And Delta and Jet Blue and Continental fly multiple daily NYC-FLL/PBI - what's your point? Put your money where your mouth is and show us the figures
119 Post contains images A340600 : Try South Terminal departures on a Saturday morning in peak holiday season and you'll soon change that quote . Ever heard of packed sardines? The new
120 MalpensaSFO : From the screw ups at a few magazines that think the entire World of air travel revoloves around airlines within the U.S. borders... CHEAP SEATS... T
121 Misbeehavin : It's not only the cost. There are many, many companies based in or with large operations in NYC (mine's one) that have a preferred supplier arrangeme
122 Burnsie28 : Yes, all the 744's have the new WBC, and NW said that it was a low yeilding route, so they decided to move that aircraft to more profitable routes. I
123 Alitalia744 : And I can sell ice to an eskimo right? C'mon - do you think airlines would ever say it just wasn't working for them? No, it's always low-yielding, lo
124 BigGSFO : It's not about low yield vs. high yield - it's about the right mix of yield. JFK-LGW will do fine for DL and no, AA, VS and BA will most likely not gi
125 N1120A : It is not that your logic is outrageous, it is that the established logic is only logical on the surface level. The biggest problem with the US legac
126 ViveLeYHZ : This has nothing of substance to do with this post, but I thought this thread was about Delta flying from JFK to La Guardia (LGA). Ooopps. Cheers.
127 ANstar : LOL Never stepped foot in the South Terminal except to catch the connecitng train. My comments refer to the North Terminal and being a QF Gold I main
128 EXAAUADL : This route will be a major loser for DL. The real winners here are UA (for getting $20m) and AA for having UA out of the market. There is a reason why
129 Panamair : As has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread, of course everyone wants LHR access because LHR is perceived by the market to be the easier and bett
130 EXAAUADL : Has it occurred to you that DL's existing corporate contracts might already be flying to LHR on AA? Very few companies are exclusive. If a company ha
131 Panamair : Of course I have. My company already does that and we have deals with AA,UA, DL, and others from the NYC area. As I said in my post above, they will
132 EXAAUADL : Will DL make money on JFK-LGW? If not will they create a halo in NYC that results in additional incremental revenue that will offset their JFK-LGW los
133 Cgnnrw : Your points are well taken. Established facts are often too easily accepted as being written in stone thus nobody is willing to challenge these so ca
134 TinPusher007 : Really? That's funny because BA only serves EWR 3X daily. And I believe thats the exact same amount of frequencies CO flies on the route, in the summ
135 WDBRR : Yes...I TRUE. I wondered at first why it wasn't LHR. Then I realized that UA will still fly to LHR from ORD, IAD, LAX and SFO. if they pulled out of
136 BigGSFO : Any speculation on what UA will do with their Heathrow slot now?
137 Incitatus : In the past United has operated three frequencies from JFK and one from EWR. Possibly you did not get this part of the agreement right.
138 EXAAUADL : Funny..dont tell that to CO. For NY originating business it certainly is (The type of traffic DL is chasing) For Europeans, they prefer JFK yes. It i
139 TinPusher007 : All points well taken. I don't have any dillusions about this route being a cash cow and neither do the network planners at DL, Im sure. In fact, I'v
140 77411 : That may be, but will NW be around by the time the 787 is delivered? NW may have the word AMERICAN painted on the sides of there aircraft by 787 deli
141 MalpensaSFO : Not in the form it is today, in most cases the 787 order will be non existent and the airline will be part of another.. Yes, now downgraded 2x 763, 1
142 B747-437B : Not outrageous, but rather superficial. Network planning is not a black-and-white science and your attempt to pigeonhole a one-size-fits-all solution
143 B747-437B : Unfeasible? Please spare us the hyperbole. Feasibility is a sliding scale equation, and like every equation, it takes two sides to reach an answer. T
144 TinPusher007 : Give me break! NW is not merging with AA.
145 A330323X : Perhaps that's because NW gets a PRASM of 12.62 cents on HNL-NRT, against only 5.8 cents on JFK-NRT, making HNL-NRT in fact quite a high-yielding rou
146 USPIT10L : Don't you mean PHL-LHR? I remember the application from 1996 stating BOS-LHR, CLT-LHR, PHL-LHR and PIT-LHR, but two of those cities are now focus cit
147 A330323X : No, I meant what I said. BOS/PIT-LHR would be the ones with greater numbers of beyond connections; CLT/PHL-LHR would have more behind connections.
148 WorldTraveler : EWR is a separate gateway under Bermuda 2. UA has indeed operated more service on JFKLHR than they have today. 330, You are correct that the correct
149 A330323X : When did I say that? What erosion? UA is entitled to operate exactly the same number of flights this year as last year. How does it prove that they w
150 B747-437B : A viable series of LGW slots for a JFK service (scheduling will dictate a tight band with arrivals somewhere between 0630 and 0930) are non-existent
151 AirbusA6 : Archaic airlines???? Hmmm Alitalia perhaps. Or maybe those inefficient American carriers who've hidden behind Chapter 11, and provide an inferior pro
152 JFKLGANYC : "Or maybe those inefficient American carriers who've hidden behind Chapter 11, and provide an inferior product..." "P.S. I prefer EWR and think JFK is
153 Post contains links AirbusA6 : My last night to EWK was with CO actually - I had onwards connections. I thought EWK was quite nice. And EWK has better transport into town, the trai
154 Post contains links RobertS975 : Some more factual information thrown into this thread of opinions: http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p86/406913.pdf DL will start w/ one daily flight Inc
155 B747-437B : That is the slot pair currently being held by DL58/59. Delta holds W06 slots for 0655, 0740, 0920 and 1115 arrivals - and 0825, 0955, 1120 and 1300 d
156 AAL0616 : The Delta-United transaction is a logical move by United (see post on other thread) and an investment or gamble by Delta, depending upon your point of
157 MalpensaSFO : It is actually a bigger gamble for UAL.. From that statement one can summize that you have never been to either airport...
158 SparkingWave : Pan Am could not make LHR work by the time it was on the skids. After they sold LHR to UA, they flew between JFK and LGW. That didn't help the airlin
159 RobertS975 : DL has a large and loyal FF base in the NYC area and the Northeast in general. There is and will continue to be a decent domestic feed into JFK. If j
160 TinPusher007 : FYI, It's EWR, not EWK!
161 Panamair : PA did not fly JFK-LGW. After the LHR route sale, they operated only DTW-LGW and MIA-LGW. The whole Pan Am case back in the early 90s can hardly be c
162 SHUPirate1 : Could DL put a 763 on a daytime flight JFK-LGW, so it gets to Gatwick when slots are more plentiful? West-coast redeyes could always connect into the
163 WorldTraveler : There is apparently considerable opportunity for DL to expand its JFKLGW service based on its DOT filing. I’m sure they will look at a daytime fligh
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