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US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop  
User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 12815 times:

When did non-stop flights between europe and the west coast start ?

Was a 707 variant capable or was it the 747-100 or even the 747-400 in the 1990's before Europe and LA/SFO/SEA were connected direct from europe ?

Which european airlines flew to the west coast before the days of non-stop flights and which started the non-stop routes ?

Before direct flights to europe commenced how did european airlines reach LA and SFO ?

Did BA/AF/LH etc stopover in the US / Canada somewhere then continue to the west coast or was it all handled by partner airlines ?

I assume most US WC pax flew to the east coast and onwards to Europe all via US Airlines ?


So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1593 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12745 times:

I flew LH from SFO-FRA in 1962 and 1964 and we always stoped at YUL and then either LHR or ORY before landing in FRA.

There was no service to LAX on LH in those days.



Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12713 times:

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 1):
I flew LH from SFO-FRA in 1962 and 1964 and we always stoped at YUL and then either LHR or ORY before landing in FRA.

There was no service to LAX on LH in those days.

What a/c type did you fly ?
In those days did airlines have 5th freedoms to pick up and carry passengers say from SFO-LHR or YUL to SFO ?



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12713 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Thread starter):
When did non-stop flights between europe and the west coast start ?

A lot earlier than you are thinking! This is off the top of my head, so the details may vary a bit, but I think I am basically right.

SK started CPH-SEA-LAX in the late 1950s (1958?) with Constallations. I think PA also operated DC7s West Coast Europe.

BOAC operated LHR-JFK-LAX Iinto the 1980s (It was part of their South Pacific service which went LHR-JFK-LAX-HNL-NAN-SYD-MEL)

Gemuser



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User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4939 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12700 times:

I think the 747-100 brought the advent of nonstop LAX/SFO/SEA-LHR/FRA/CDG/ORY services... As the 747 became more successful, more routes were flown, and the -400 made the flights that much more economical in the '90s... The 767, 777 and A340 were also facilitators of EU-West Coast services later on as well.


Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12667 times:

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 3):
BOAC operated LHR-JFK-LAX Iinto the 1980s (It was part of their South Pacific service which went LHR-JFK-LAX-HNL-NAN-SYD-MEL)

That must have been a long interesting flight, was this VC10s ?

I saw a picture of a Comet in Hawaii once but I thought it was just a promo not a viable route.



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5647 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12647 times:

TWA did LAX/SFO-LHR/CDG flights with Connies, and KLM from what Iremember did with DC-8's.


Next trip: SLC-LAX-JFK-LAX-SLC on AA, gotta say goodbye to my beloved 762!
User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1593 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12638 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 2):
What a/c type did you fly ?

It was the 707-330B from SFO.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gerhard Plomitzer


As far as LAX goes I believe LH started around 1969 with a 707-430 and stopped at AMS...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alain Picollet



Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 2):
In those days did airlines have 5th freedoms to pick up and carry passengers say from SFO-LHR or YUL to SFO ?

Here are the rules on LH 1962...

No traffic permitted to be picked up or put down at Montreal for transportation to or from Paris/London or San Francisco or points beyond via San Francisco. No stopover permitted at Montreal to transatlantic San Francisco or points beyond traffic via Montreal. No change of carrier permitted at Montreal to transatlantic eastbound San Francisco or points beyond traffic via Montreal nor to transatlantic westbound Paris/London traffic via Montreal.

Luckily, I had all that memorized from when I was 5 years old!  Wink



Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7254 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12627 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Thread starter):
When did non-stop flights between europe and the west coast start ?

TWs inaugural non-stop SFO-LHR flight using a L1649A was in October 1957. The flight duration was a whole day (24 hours) less around 40 minutes.


User currently offlineRC135U From United States of America, joined May 2005, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12620 times:

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 6):
TWA did LAX/SFO-LHR/CDG flights with Connies, and KLM from what Iremember did with DC-8's.

TWA started LAX-London service on September 29, 1957 with their new 1649A Connies - called "Starliners". Transit time was something like 23 hours.


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12608 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 5):
That must have been a long interesting flight, was this VC10s ?

I saw a picture of a Comet in Hawaii once but I thought it was just a promo not a viable route.

Yes was usually a VC/SVC10, could have been a Comet eairler I suppose but I have no info on that.

It was an intersting route, particully when you consider that there was another VC/SVC10 that went LHR-Europe-Middle East-India-SIN-SYD-AKL-NAN!

Gemuser



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User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12608 times:

so 24 hours on a Constellation from LAX-LHR in the 1950's surely this didnt last when the 707 came around, wouldnt it have been faster to fly 1 stop on two 707's/DC8's ?

I'm trying to understand the history of "true" long haul flights in the jet age and how they came to be ?

So BOAC flew via the US to Australia ? I would have thought they would have gone down under via Asia with better pickup/drop off potential and leave higher demand flights to the US as dedicated flights ?



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently offlineRC135U From United States of America, joined May 2005, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12561 times:

VV701 you just beat me to it. BTW, my data indicated it was from LAX, but was it indeed SFO?

Best


User currently onlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12546 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Thread starter):
Was a 707 variant capable or was it the 747-100 or even the 747-400 in the 1990's before Europe and LA/SFO/SEA were connected direct from europe ?

It most definately wasn't the 744, which BTW came out in January 1989. The 707, DC-8 and 741 were all capable of making the non-stop, as were later versions of piston aircraft that could do it but very slowly.

Quoting San747 (Reply 4):
I think the 747-100 brought the advent of nonstop LAX/SFO/SEA-LHR/FRA/CDG/ORY services...

Nope, the 707 and DC-8 were already capable of that. The 747 brought the ability to do it with a fraction of the CASM

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 7):
As far as LAX goes I believe LH started around 1969 with a 707-430 and stopped at AMS...

Which still qualifies as non-stop from Europe to the West Coast

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11):
So BOAC flew via the US to Australia ? I would have thought they would have gone down under via Asia with better pickup/drop off potential and leave higher demand flights to the US as dedicated flights ?

The political and infrastructure climate in those days dictated that it was a better idea to use US points to make stops



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12358 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11):So BOAC flew via the US to Australia ? I would have thought they would have gone down under via Asia with better pickup/drop off potential and leave higher demand flights to the US as dedicated flights ?
The political and infrastructure climate in those days dictated that it was a better idea to use US points to make stops

BA was a true "round the world" airline in the 1960s, 70s and early80s.

It flew to Oz via the Middle East and India, via the US, via HKG and via ANC & TYO (with a connection)

Flights to Oz/HKG/TYO usually had one stop in Europe, one in the Middle East, one in India (Raj definision) then BKK to HKG to TYO or SIN/Malaya to SYD/MEL via PER/DRW.

They also flew LHR-ANC-TYO-HKG and HKG-TYO-HNL-SFO (cant remember if it went anywhere from their). Remember this was BEFORE BII.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineZKNBX From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12331 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 5):
(It was part of their South Pacific service which went LHR-JFK-LAX-HNL-NAN-SYD-MEL)

WAS being the key point here, as BA Pacific / Australasia service was long gone by the mid 1970s in favour of flights via India and SE Asia


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3786 posts, RR: 30
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12241 times:

Quoting RC135U (Reply 9):
TWA started LAX-London service on September 29, 1957 with their new 1649A Connies - called "Starliners". Transit time was something like 23 hours.

...assuming conditions allowed for the SFO-Paris and LAX-LHR legs of TWA's L1649A U.S. West Coast-Europe services to be operated non-stop on a given day, as advertised. Timetables showing these flights as non-stops also carried a disclaimer "A fuel stop(s) may be necessary." When such was the case, transit time was even longer. Nonetheless, the capability of U.S. West Coast to Europe non-stop service in under 24 hours was a very impressive feat in its day. Although, iirc, TWA's L1649As were capable of flying LAX/SFO-Europe non-stop only when operating at reduced payload, even in ideal weather conditons.

Does anyone have reasonably reliable data as to how consistently (or inconsistently) TWA was able to actually operate LAX/SFO-Europe non-stop as scheduled, sans fuel stop(s), with their L1649 Starliners?


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12202 times:

Quoting ZKNBX (Reply 15):
WAS being the key point here, as BA Pacific / Australasia service was long gone by the mid 1970s in favour of flights via India and SE Asia

A bit later than that. They were definately operating in 1978 and IRCC into the early 80"s.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 12119 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 16):
Does anyone have reasonably reliable data as to how consistently (or inconsistently) TWA was able to actually operate LAX/SFO-Europe non-stop as scheduled, sans fuel stop(s), with their L1649 Starliners

When did these turn over the route.

I reach up on the 707/dc8 and found they had fuel ranges of aboiut 3800 / 4500 miles.

SFO/LAX is 5500/5600 miles... so the 707's must have refueled somewhere ? Or am I missing something ?



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently onlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 12071 times:

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 14):
They also flew LHR-ANC-TYO-HKG and HKG-TYO-HNL-SFO (cant remember if it went anywhere from their).

The ANC stops were because overflying the USSR without a stop in Moscow was a no no. Hence, BA had to go the long way around.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 18):
I reach up on the 707/dc8 and found they had fuel ranges of aboiut 3800 / 4500 miles.

SFO/LAX is 5500/5600 miles... so the 707's must have refueled somewhere ? Or am I missing something ?

You are missing that later versions had greater range. You may also be mistaking nautical miles for statute miles



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11713 times:

Bear in mind that the DC-10-30 and DC-10-40 had the range to make this flight in the 70s as well. I don't know of anyone who used them for this, but the A/C were there.


"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineN174UA From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11382 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 20):
Bear in mind that the DC-10-30 and DC-10-40 had the range to make this flight in the 70s as well. I don't know of anyone who used them for this, but the A/C were there.

 checkmark  Flew British Caledonian (remember them?) on a DC-10-30 nonstop LAX-LGW-LAX in August 1982.


User currently offlineLredlefsen From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 151 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11264 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
the 707 and DC-8 were already capable of that.

The 707 and DC-8 could do SFO-LHR *NON*stop, i.e. without landing to refuel?

I'm not talking about "direct" flights, where the plane might land, and pax might even change planes, but the flight number stays the same...


User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11165 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 20):
Bear in mind that the DC-10-30 and DC-10-40 had the range to make this flight in the 70s as well. I don't know of anyone who used them for this, but the A/C were there.

A310
SFO-BGR-ZRH: BalAir

DC8
OAK-BGR-ORY : Minerve
LAX-BGR-ORY : Minerve

DC10
SAN-LAX-LGW : BCal
LAX-LGW : Laker Airways
LAX-MAN : British Airtours
SFO-CDG : Air France/UTA
SFO-ORY : Air Tours
LAX-SVO : TransAero
LAX-ZRH : BalAir
LAX-LGW : American Airlines
LAX-GVA-ZRH: SwissAir
LAX-CPH : LAX-CPH
LAX-ORY : AOM
LAX-ORY : Air Liberte

L1011
SFO-DUS : LTU
SFO-FRA : Delta Airlines
SFO-FRA : RyanAir International
LAX-FRA : Delta Airlines

IL62
SFO-SEA-ANC-SVO : Aeroflot
SFO-SEA-ANC-Novobrisk: Aeroflot


User currently offlineSK601 From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 976 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11139 times:

I don't know about west coast to Europe, but KLM's first transatlantic service was on May, 21st, 1946 from AMS-NYC with a DC4, carrying 44 passengers. Travel time 21 (!) hrs. Air France started just a month later PAR-NYC on June, 24th. 1946 also with a DC4.

First longhaul route for KL was 12 Sept. 1929 AMS- Batavia (Indonesia)
First transatlantic route for KL was on 14th Feb 1946 from AMS to PBM and CUR. Some other facts:
7 Oct. 1947 first AMS-JNB
4 Dec. 1951 first AMS-MNL-TYO
7 Dec. 1951 first AMS-SYD
23 May 1957 first KL non-stop LAX-PAR (!!) with DC7C (not a scheduled flight)

[Edited 2006-07-29 21:19:20]

25 Tristarsteve : When SAS inauguarted Polar flights CPH-LAX in 1954 were they non-stop?
26 Baw716 : SK operated CPH-LAX in 1954 via Sondre Stromfjord with a DC-6.
27 Timz : Just talking about nonstops for a minute-- Like he said, TW 1649 schedules said maybe a fuel stop; as I recall the PA DC-7C schedules didn't mention t
28 Tango-Bravo : Plus an additional technical/fuel stop, typically(?) at YWG (at least on many, if not most/all CPH-LAX flights opb DC-6B equipment) Even Western Euro
29 Timz : Like he said SK started scheduled flying to the West Coast in 1954; BOAC started LHR-IDL-SFO in 1957 or 1958. No other European airline scheduled pro
30 Timz : As for NY-Europe-- many airline timetables showed nonstops eastward, starting with the Constellation 749. How often they lived up to it we don't know,
31 OB1783P : You should look for a book called SKYLINERS by George Hamlin (and its 2 sequels). Wonderful picture books with interesting detail, about the late pis
32 Stirling : Statute Miles. Big difference from Nautical miles. LHR-SFO is 4660nm The 707-320C had a range of 6465nm, at a MGTOW of 279,000lbs. (zero weight was 2
33 Timz : Full tanks, zero payload, you mean? By the way-- anybody know what the nonstop airliner distance record was, as of 1962? (A one-time flight, not sche
34 RoseFlyer : SEA-CPH 1966 DC-8 In 1966 Seattle got nonstop service to Copenhagen Denmark on Scandinavian Airlines using a DC-8 on a polar route. This was the first
35 Juventus : Its a shame that San Diego has no direct flights to Europe, and SEA gets very limited 'direct' European service.
36 LPLAspotter : When I was 3 months old (1966)I took my first flight nonstop TWA 707 from ORY to SFO. My mom said she'd never forget having me sit on her lap kicking
37 RayPettit : Westbound, tech stops were often made at Winipeg or Spokane, depending on the airline. In later years, such stops were dependent on the wind condition
38 Timz : Maybe so, but the 8/76 and 7/77 ABCs show no BA transpacific flights.
39 RC135U : Not sure they ever did it nonstop. I took a MAC charter on the way to Okinawa. Trans International DC-8-63 with the full coach 259 seat configuration
40 VV701 : BA used NZ DC-10 30s on the LAX route from May 1975 to April 1979. This came about because BA's 747s were too big at that time and their L-1011s did
41 Gemuser : Actually this was NOT KLMs first service to SYD. It was in fact the resumption of services after World War II. KLM started services to SYD in 1934 an
42 Post contains links 474218 : Quoting RC135U (Reply 39): Quoting Stirling (Reply 32): All of these carriers had contracts with the US Government to shuttle troops back and forth fr
43 Rongotai : In 1969 I flew on a BA 707 NAN-HNL-SFO-JFK-LHR, returning the same route on a QF 707. The BA flight had a scheduled stop for 8 hours at SFO and all th
44 Timz : Forgot that Vancouver is on the Coast-- and Canadian Pacific probably did YVR-AMS nonstop now and then with their Britannia. Never westbound, though?
45 RC135U : That's why we always preferred deploying in our own RC's where we could just wear our flight suits and not get stuck in the sling seats/web seats. Tr
46 474218 : I never had a choice who I was going to fly with. Every, TDY I went on we just loaded up in a good old KC-135 and off were went. I did get a ride on
47 RC135U : Being out of Beale, did you work with the Habu? This'll end up on the military forum pretty soon![Edited 2006-07-30 21:24:19]
48 Bnamaxx : BA used to serve SAN using a 744 with various efforts at one time or another to LHR - nonstop, via PHX, and I beleive via LAX as well. Kinda sorta on
49 Post contains images Solnabo : SK fleet never had Connie´s. Typo:::: Micke/SWE
50 474218 : Yep, first airplane I ever worked on sheet metal shop 1966-1969. RyanAir International never flew the L-1011. In fact I have never heard of RyanAir I
51 Timz : 3/61 OAG shows 707-320 flights: 1/week PA SEA-LHR no stop shown, schedule 9 hr 30 min 1/week PA SFO-LHR with operational stop, sched 12-10 3/wk PA LAX
52 Tango-Bravo : Keep in mind, eastbound is shown in the example given above. According to my sources, Pan Am's DC-7Cs had a range of 4,000 statute miles or 4,600 nau
53 Timz : Averaging maybe 220 knots?
54 Tango-Bravo : My reasoning is based on the flight times shown for SEA-LHR and SFO-LHR by Pan Am DC-7Cs being slightly less than double the flight times of today's
55 Timz : Actually, I bet the one-stop time wouldn't be much different from the nonstop time. If they tried to do it nonstop they'd have to use long range (slow
56 StarGoldLHR : I assume you mean the Non-Stop would fly slower to conserve fuel, but the 1stop would fly faster to make up time ? When did TWA give up with a non-st
57 Timz : TWA started jets across the Atlantic in ... September 1959? I'd guess their hopefully-nonstop polar 1649s ended around that time. Certainly they were
58 Tango-Bravo : It seems an irony, albeit an understandable irony, that the most advanced piston-powered longhaul airliner also had the shortest life-span of the pos
59 Timz : Aviation Week for 13 January 1958 says "TWA has an advantage over both Pan American and SAS-- the Lockheed 1649A Constellation, which can often fly th
60 Timz : Aviation Week for 31 August 1959 says PA started their first 707-320 flights "last week" -- I somehow thought they started on the Pacific, but no, it
61 N1120A : As was PA. In fact, UA was a single plane, round the world airline until right around 9/11 Not only did BCal do LGW-LAX but Laker even did LGW-West C
62 Tango-Bravo : Interestingly, in Pan Am's June 1, 1974 timetable, when their 747-121 fleet had become well-established, Pan Am's only U.S. West Coast-Europe non-sto
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