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Pilots As Passengers?  
User currently offlineSpruit From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 375 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 15999 times:

Hi folks,

My question is, does being a pilot, airline or private, make you a better or a worse passenger?

As a private pilot, do you pick up on other pilots mistakes easily?

Commercial pilots, do you notice when in the cabin, mistakes of your colleagues?

Thanks in advance for your answers?

Spru!


E=Mc2
193 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 15981 times:

I guess it'd make them more aware of mistakes and operations compared to say, an a.netter oraverage pax. I sat next to a PPL pilot yesterday on AUA-CLT and he and I discussed how the landing was a bit fast for a wet runway. We were in an A319 on 36L and we were fast and i could have sworn I felt the tires start to slip a bit...


Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 982 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 15948 times:

[quote=Cadet57,reply=1]how the landing was a bit fast for a wet runway. [/quote

Virtually impossible to determine such a thing from the passenger cabin. I'm sure it made him appear knowledgeable, but he (or she) would have no way of determining that the approach/landing were "a bit fast".

I commute every week, and sure, you might notice things that are done that you might have done differently. This typically revolves around "technique" and being smooth as opposed to things more critical. No different than riding in someones car and noticing hard braking or cornering.



...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 15939 times:

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 2):
Virtually impossible to determine such a thing from the passenger cabin.

Why not? its easy to tell a great landing from a shit one, and plus the fact that when we were slowing down I was really lurched foward, something that rarely happens when I fly.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 15905 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 1):
how the landing was a bit fast for a wet runway

As said above, this is not possibly known from the back. You have to consider in winds, and many other factors which cannot be determined from the back without any raw data.

A couple of weeks ago I was in the back of a Cessna 172 for the first time since I was a kid, and it was a very bad experience. I was there so that an older gentleman could do a full load check on a 172. I didn't know the guy, but he was with an instructor at the front. In the two circuits that we did, the instructor had to take control 4 times, and from the back I could see things developing which somehow were completely unapparent to the pilot. It was a very helpless feeling, and I was extremely glad to be on the ground after it all. I was also apologized to for the flight, even the instructor said he hadn't been that nervous in a long time.

In a somewhat related note, there is a famous race car driver (forget who now) who is a very nervous flyer. He is used to driving extremely fast cars on tight circuits, but being in an aircraft with no control over the situation makes him quite nervous.



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineSpruit From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 375 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 15905 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 3):
Why not? its easy to tell a great landing from a **** one

Okay, so landing, or the part on the runway with no aerodynamic forces acting on the control surfaces is really akin to driving a very speedy car! (Waiting for the flames on that comment)

But what I'm more interested in is the application of power on the approach as opposed to a smooth approach with good glide slope hold?

Interesting take off's from a Pilot-Passenger perspective!

How much of civil aviation flight is now actually hand flown?



E=Mc2
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15884 times:

Quoting Spruit (Reply 5):
How much of civil aviation flight is now actually hand flown?

Id say the first 20 mins and last 20 mins nowadays.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6094 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15845 times:

Quoting Spruit (Reply 5):
How much of civil aviation flight is now actually hand flown?

It depends on the airports, stage length, altitude, and capability of the aircraft at the time.

—If the autopilot is deferred, the airline is not going to pull the plane due to lazy pilots.
—If the flight is to be operated at an altitude low enough to permit manual operation, then many pilots would take that advantage to work on their hand-flying skills for the entire flight.
—If the flight is short enough to not need the autopilot, then it's up to the pilot to not use it.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineSJCRRPAX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15827 times:

I'm not sure. Does being able to drive a car make you a better or worse PAX in a taxi-cab?

User currently offlineThrottleHold From South Africa, joined Jul 2006, 659 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15827 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 3):
Why not? its easy to tell a great landing from a shit one

Tell us then, what in your opinion is the difference?

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 1):
he and I discussed how the landing was a bit fast for a wet runway

As mentioned before, it is virtually impossible to accurately judge the speed of the aircraft from the cabin. Unless you are aware of the specific conditions of the day, how can you say it was fast? Did you know the wind velocity? The strength of the 1000' wind to judge any shear? If its been raining, there might be CB's near by which could be giving gust fronts, requiring some extra knots on the approach.

Come back to me after you have a few thousand hours of practice landing commercial jets (not just on FS) and give me your opinion them.

[Edited 2006-07-30 20:44:48]

User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15785 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 3):
Why not? its easy to tell a great landing from a shit one, and plus the fact that when we were slowing down I was really lurched foward, something that rarely happens when I fly.

So classify a great landing? Many in the public think a great landing is a greaser, which is not always true.

Quoting Spruit (Reply 5):
But what I'm more interested in is the application of power on the approach as opposed to a smooth approach with good glide slope hold?

Adding power on the approach is no indicator of a great approach. As you come down the glideslope, the winds may change, requiring one to add or decrease power to hold the glideslope. Remember at this stage of flight, pitch controls airspeed and power controls altitude. So adjusting power to maintain the glidesplope is actually the proper method, and as such if you hear it occuring, you know you have a pilot that is aware of the changing conditions outside the plane. If you are lucky enough to be on a flight that no power is added, then more than likely it is because the wind is calm.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 6):
Id say the first 20 mins and last 20 mins nowadays.

Not in most cases. Sometimes the AP may be turned on at 500ft., other times the pilot will want to hand-fly. It all depends.



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15755 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 3):
and plus the fact that when we were slowing down I was really lurched foward, something that rarely happens when I fly

This could have been due to the aircraft touching down further down the runway than desired, it could have been the pilots wanting to take one particular exit so they got on the brakes more than usual (seen this many times, with plenty of runway left). There are endless scenarios, but I will still say that from the back, it is virtually impossible to tell if the aircraft is coming in faster than it should be, since so many things can be causing this to be an illusion.



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineVEEREF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15691 times:

Interesting that a PPL can tell all of that from sitting in the back. How does he know how fast the aircraft was travelling?
Assuming by the routing it was an Airbus of some kind. I don't fly the Airbus, but IIRC there are different autobrake settings for different scenarios. Airbus guys help me out here, wouldn't the autobrakes be set to full when the landing runway is contaminated or reduced?
I can say that autobrakes are no bullshit items, when you ask for full you get FULL and sometimes they will grab rather dramatically.
We don't have autobrakes on the DC-10 but if I mash the pedals to the floor I get EXACTLY what I ask for.

I too, am curious, what the difference between a good landing and "shit" landing is!


User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1574 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15656 times:

Quoting Spruit (Thread starter):
As a private pilot, do you pick up on other pilots mistakes easily?

A private pilot on an airliner can not understand any mistake from the passenger cabin.

A commercial pilot without any type rating can not understand any mistake from the passenger cabin.

A commercial pilot with type rating and above does not search to look for a mistake of the collegues from the passenger cabin.

A real pilot with experience does not mention about the mistakes in the passenger cabin,because he/she knows he can not undestand any mistake from the passenger cabin.  Wink



Widen your world
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15625 times:

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 9):
Tell us then, what in your opinion is the difference?

Well when I dont get thrown around like a rag doll on approach or have the overhead door slam open becuase the pilot threw the 757 onto the runway as experianced last week in AUA. And the weather was winds from the west at 2mph with temps in the mid 80's and unlimited vis so dont give me weather as a rebuttle. Compared to a landing where you barely feel the wheels touch

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 9):
Come back to me after you have a few thousand hours of practice landing commercial jets (not just on FS) and give me your opinion them.

There was no need for you to act like such a jerk here. I'll have you know I have flown, not jets, just cessna;s but I do know how its done This is why I brought up the point this pilot made to me when we were discussing this matter. And maybe if you were a bit more polite, Id answer your questions better, but since it seems you cant do that with out flaming me...

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 12):
Interesting that a PPL can tell all of that from sitting in the back. How does he know how fast the aircraft was travelling?

All I was saying was the observation HE made. Not ME. IDK why im getting flamed for this. Spruit asked a question and I tried to give a response. I know its impossible to tell. But the pilot said thatt wind were sending us to use the west side of CLT on 36L and that it had gusts to 8mph with a visibility of 10 miles and light rain.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6094 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15614 times:

These would be 'shit' landings:


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Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently onlineTWAL1011727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 633 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15589 times:

All I have to say is them pilots up there better put the flaps down for takeoff. If they don't by the time they get to the end of the runway, theres gonna be trouble.

KD


User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15570 times:

Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 16):
All I have to say is them pilots up there better put the flaps down for takeoff. If they don't by the time they get to the end of the runway, theres gonna be trouble.

And which aircraft are we talking about, and under which conditions?



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineVEEREF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15506 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 14):
IDK why im getting flamed for this

Nobody is flaming you.
Mention to your friend that just because a landing felt rough doesn't mean that it was unsafe.

Though it looked like it ended in a pretty smooth touchdown, a good example of unsafe is the recent photo of the KLM 744 appearing to touch short of or right on the threshold markings at SXM.
BIG no-no in a large jet.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 14):
Well when I dont get thrown around like a rag doll on approach or have the overhead door slam open becuase the pilot threw the 757 onto the runway as experianced last week in AUA. And the weather was winds from the west at 2mph with temps in the mid 80's and unlimited vis so dont give me weather as a rebuttle. Compared to a landing where you barely feel the wheels touch

I'm pretty sure you didn't get "thrown around like a rag doll" or you would have ended up in the hospital. What were the winds aloft? You mentioned SURFACE wind at 2mph. I have seen cases where the surface is calm but at 2000ft you can have 30-40kt. Yes, that will make for a rough ride due to the wind shearing to almost nothing in the span of a couple thousand feet.
Believe it or not, the LEAST safest way to land an airplane is to "grease" it on, as such a maneuver consumes valuable concrete better suited to stopping the aircraft.
BTW I've had a number of overheads come open during takeoffs and landings. All were due to mechanical issues with that particular mechanism, not with the quality of the landing. If it was TRULY that bad, they will ALL come open, and most likely so will the oxygen masks.

On the other hand, pilots are human. Not every landing is perfect. What has been described above would be considered uncomfortable, but hardly unsafe.


User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15495 times:

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 18):
Mention to your friend that just because a landing felt rough doesn't mean that it was unsafe

He diddnt say it was unsafe, just commented that it seemed a bit fast.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineWard86IND From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 15441 times:

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):
Airbus guys help me out here, wouldn't the autobrakes be set to full when the landing runway is contaminated or reduced?

Not an expert here, but I believe settings 1-2 are used normally going all the way up to MAX AUTO for the situations you are talking about. I was on an A320 recently and after touchdown at MSP we came to a stop VERY quickly, it was either pedal to the medal manual braking or a high setting autobrake.

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 17):
All I have to say is them pilots up there better put the flaps down for takeoff. If they don't by the time they get to the end of the runway, theres gonna be trouble.

Reminds me of the NW Md80 crash at DTW in the late 80s...



Live your dream.
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 15419 times:

Quoting Ward86IND (Reply 20):
Reminds me of the NW Md80 crash at DTW in the late 80s...

you misquoted me  Wink However, not all aircraft under all conditions require, nor should have flaps down for take-off. This includes one or two airliners that will take-off with flaps "0" set.  Smile



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7643 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 15388 times:

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):
A private pilot on an airliner can not understand any mistake from the passenger cabin.

 checkmark 

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):
commercial pilot without any type rating can not understand any mistake from the passenger cabin.

 checkmark 

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):
A commercial pilot with type rating and above does not search to look for a mistake of the collegues from the passenger cabin.

 checkmark 

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):
A real pilot with experience does not mention about the mistakes in the passenger cabin,because he/she knows he can not undestand any mistake from the passenger cabin.

 checkmark 

Not much more needed to add to that.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineWard86IND From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 15388 times:

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 21):
you misquoted me However, not all aircraft under all conditions require, nor should have flaps down for take-off. This includes one or two airliners that will take-off with flaps "0" set.

Sorry, I had the thread up there a while and I think what happened was 2 other people replied which misaligned the quotes...and what airliners can do this? I don't think I've ever been on one that took off without flaps.



Live your dream.
User currently onlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8339 posts, RR: 23
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15295 times:

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 15):
These would be 'shit' landings:

I beg to differ on the B1900. That's a great landing. The gear collapsed yet they stayed on the runway and nobody got hurt.

Don't make me use the cliche "any landing you can walk away from" phrase....  silly 



This Website Censors Me
25 Post contains images Fly727 : I'd say better. Generally one tends to sympathize with the crew and is willing to make their job easier. Private pilots -specially those on their way
26 H53Epilot : Try 1st 20 seconds and last 20 seconds.
27 N766UA : That's more like in, unfortunately. Last week I flew into ATL on a 738 and CMH on a CRJ, in both cases I was near the front and could hear the autopi
28 Captaingomes : Thanks RM, I thought the F100 was one of them, but I wasn't 100% sure. I think I recall something about an A300 or A310 doing the same, but frankly I'
29 TheGreatChecko : Jeez....lots of animosity here. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of sitting in the back, I'd rather sit up front and fly. If the approach is particularl
30 Mainliner : As a mere CFI with under three hundred hours, I generally do not feel qualified to judge an ATP-rated and type-rated professional with many times more
31 Halls120 : My brother is a Delta Captain. From time to time, I've asked him to decipher an event I've encountered while on a commercial flight. He will always t
32 FlyDreamliner : The only difference being a private pilot has ever made for me in the passenger cabin is that on the air traffic control channel of the audio system,
33 Jetdeltamsy : It is my experience that most commercial pilots are a pleasure to have on board. It's the private, Piper-flying pilots that are a pain in the neck. Th
34 PhilSquares : I think this is great! We have all these experts giving their opinion about judging everyone's mistakes from the cabin! I wish I had the talent/expert
35 Amazonphil : A good and experienced pilot that has flown many hours and many hours in a cabin also, CAN tell from the pax cabin when a landing is somewhat too fas
36 Post contains images Fly727 : Consciousness helps but so does his/her McGyver knife with an integrated aircraft weighting device to calculate VRef, right? Oh, wait a minute... Poc
37 PlainSmart : PhilSquares ladies and gentlemen is a Professional. Thank you. I could not agree more as a pilot, the last thing I am doing is looking for mistakes.
38 FSPilot747 : Your friend's about as clueless as you are.
39 Ual777 : Are you positive it wasn't the OM or IM ringer. It goes off at about 500 agl.
40 Outlier : You flame yourself. I don't know what else you would call it when you describe yourself as a "supermarket bitch".
41 PhilSquares : So what's your point? Is there anything in the SOPs that says the autopilot has to be turned off at a certain point? I don't think so. Let me tell yo
42 SCCutler : Agreed, subject to this caveat: All those guys above are "real" pilots. If any of them choose to pass judgment based upon the "view" from the passeng
43 Post contains images CptSpeaking : Not quite...lots of times the autopilot is engaged in the same motion as putting the gear up. Even in the 172s I fly all the time, we turn the autopi
44 Usair320 : when on a plane other than the F-100 I dont sit back and relax until those flaps are extended for takeoff.
45 PhilSquares : A "good landing" is composed of several things. A smooth touchdown is just a small part of the entire process. Everyone talks about being able to judg
46 Ual777 : uhhhh. right. Most pilots on departure hand fly it up to 12,000-18,000 and a few hand fly it all the way to cruise. On the way down, same drill just
47 Post contains images Fly727 : What aircraft type and operation you're talking about? If you mean commercial, I have a hard time believing you. And turns awkward if it comes from a
48 Turnit56N : Others have said things much better than I can. No person, regardless of experience, is capable of judging another pilot's flying job from the passeng
49 AirWillie6475 : Oh please, some guys especially Southwest fly their planes like they're fighters or something. I remember one flight from BUR to SJC where pilots wer
50 PhilSquares : I can tell you the only requirement for autopilot engagement at my airline is if it's specified on the SID or in the airfield notes. For example, EBB
51 Post contains images UAL777 : Im talking United Airlines and 777s. I was curious about this myself so tonight at dinner I asked the old man (who has 28 years on the line and has f
52 MPDPilot : I think that your right no person, pilot or not, can understand a mistake from the flight deck unless he or she was at the controls. However I think
53 Barney Captain : No restriction here at WN. I know of one guy at least that does just that on nearly every leg. As for me, the AP usually goes on @ 10k, and off once
54 AirWillie6475 : I could care less as long as they don't crash the plane, it's just that the guy asked a question. Oh yea a real expert, it doesn't matter what ATC to
55 Ward86IND : You have NO IDEA of the context of the situation. For example ATC could have needed them to get down quick, you don't know. No you can't classify pil
56 Ward86IND : Could have been a textbook crosswind landing, better than landing level and sliding all over the runway...
57 Spruit : Thanks folks it's an interesting topic so far! I agree that you can not make a good judgement from the cabin and the reason I asked the question was t
58 LPLAspotter : I remember flying from LAX to HNL on a CO DC10 and I had the window and a copilot was sitting net to me. Before we started talking (I'm not good at st
59 JBirdAV8r : When I was a young private pilot, I used to think I could...
60 ShowerOfSparks : If I recall correctly the flaps 1 setting for a 737(Classic) reduces the stalling speed in the order of 50 knots from a flaps up condition. Needless
61 Wing : Ofcourse every alive person can notice everything happening in the airplane.You can understand the climb,descent your aers clogg, even babies start c
62 PhilSquares : Of course, I forgot you know everything that's going on. How silly of me. You really need to see the world and see what it's really like. Then come b
63 ThrottleHold : ....and thereby demonstrating a textbook crosswind landing!! (Assuming of course it was a crosswind from the left....!!) This episode perfectly illus
64 Post contains images Seanp11 : this thread makes me think of backseat drivers. (except these guys have even less info)
65 PlainSmart : I think my post was deleted so I will state it again. PhilSquares is correct on this subject. People with little or no experience making assumptions a
66 Post contains images Halls120 : your statement is on the money and bears repeating. Often.
67 Outlier : Wow. Well this has been interesting. I guess all the compliments that I have given the Pros over the years go in one ear and out the other. They don't
68 N766UA : I'm a pilot. I love to fly and I'll be damned if I let the computer do all the easy stuff too. If you choose to fly gear up to short final with the a
69 Post contains images 777DAD : This has been turned again into a "Beat each other up thread" . However I feel that "ANY" landing that you can walk away from is a good one, bumpy or
70 N353SK : It's impossible for anybody to know if the pilot is making mistakes if you are sitting in the cabin. I was sitting next to a Non-revving pilot on one
71 Grbld : That's just fine Outlier, in the end it's yourself that gets high blood pressure. I don't mind people coming up to me and complimenting me on my land
72 Post contains images 777DAD :
73 Barney Captain : I ALWAYS appreciate kind words from pax as they leave, being thanked for "a nice flight" is a great way to finish a leg. That's a far cry from some b
74 PlainSmart : Grbld, well said. I think that in this day and age people are so used to flight, that they take it for granted. Let us not loose the importance of avi
75 Post contains images 777DAD : You guys got my R.E.S.P.E.C.T. Jeff
76 Spruit : I find it disappointing that people would rather argue with each other instead of participating in the forum and answering questions from others or wi
77 Post contains images Pe@rson : PhilSquires - you just made me laugh-at-loud at work (12 hours now). I love your comments. Keep them coming... As for me, I find everything appealing
78 Cadet57 : Look here. You have all reacted way to tenderly to my post. I merely responded to the thread starters question with an observation that was made to me
79 Post contains images 777DAD : Relax man. The question was honest.Just bent to shit by backseat pilots,and answered as best as they could by real Pros. The only dumb question is th
80 FSPilot747 : Sorry you feel that way, Spruit. The problem is when it gets to these discussions, and inexperienced members who *think* they know what they're talki
81 Cadet57 : Im sorry you feel the way you do to where you cant get your point across unless you shit all over me with your "expertise". Heres an idea, instead of
82 Thepilot : All right, I'll see if I can weigh in on the subject. As my username suggests, I am a licensed pilot with over 100 hours. I do not feel I can make ass
83 IFEMaster : Personally, I love it when something "unusual" or "unexpected" happens, such as a 'perceived' fast or hard landing, an unusually abrupt decent, pilots
84 PeterPuck : This thread is hillarious! Keep it coming "experts".
85 Motopolitico : I always thank the pilot after a go-around. Safety first, plus they're fun!
86 UAL777 : Again, in Europe this is not the case because you guys have like 25 departure tracks. This doesnt apply when flying into O'hare, but when flying into
87 Outlier : Its a lousy topic because once a professional pilot comes on and says "there is no way for you to know jack in the back" its over. No knowledge shari
88 PlainSmart : Bing! This is your captian speaking, I have just turned on the fasten seatbelt sign for reported moderate chop all the way to our destination on this
89 VEEREF : That's usually the by product of the pilot trying to "feel" for the runway in an attempt to "grease" the landing. The sad part is the pilot will usua
90 MPDPilot : Actually I think that I did notice more than the average person. I also am not presuming to understand weather it was a mistake or not maybe the pilo
91 VEEREF : I fly the DC-10. I recently rode in the back of a DC-10, window seat just behind the wing. Though I have almost 800 hours as a crewmember, the only th
92 ThrottleHold : Jeez, no need to start sounding like a manic depressive over it. Imagine you've just been to the hospital, would you open the door of the operating r
93 Post contains images CRGsFuture : This statement is so true. Honestly as a PAX I have had only one bad landing and it wasn't terrible just a bad idea by the pilot flying to not use th
94 UAX170 : I had a funny experience with a Polar Air pilot. I was commuting to work into ORD from ATL, on the DL MD90, and I am sitting in the middle seat. To my
95 EmiratesA345 : I find this whole thread terribly amusing. A while ago I got my ass blasted by the "experts" in the trip reports forum, because I told someone that it
96 ThrottleHold : Just as a matter of interest, which of the posters here actually have experience flying commercial jets?[Edited 2006-07-31 22:43:50]
97 Amazonphil : This whole forum just amazes me! You offer a simple answer and you get all this non-sense from so called "professionals" that really don't know what
98 VEEREF : After rereading this entire thread something has dawned on me. Perhaps the pilots on this board, including myself, have mistaken the term "bad" as "un
99 Amazonphil : --------------------------------------------------------------------------- This a good point VEEREF. Just to sum up what I have learned from this th
100 EmiratesA345 : Judging by your comments, my observation is that your beliefs are absolutely ridiculous. Mark
101 AirWillie6475 : No you have no idea, what the hell do you know about the flight I'm talking about? Get a clue and learn to take some criticizm, I'm a pilot I know wh
102 MPDPilot : I think that was probably what happened but who knows it was several years ago.
103 Amazonphil : By looking at your profile, you don't state that you are in fact a pilot yourself and have the necessary experience but that doesn't conclude that yo
104 Post contains images A340600 : My god, you really shouldn't say things like that, it's too funny!
105 ThrottleHold : Care to gives us a quick synopsis of your pilot qualifications and experience? From your profile it seems your still in training. I doubt you have th
106 Post contains images Amazonphil : This a fairly accurate statement. I fly jumpseat quite often to get where I need/want to go(CO's seats are always so full..bad for me, great for us a
107 EmiratesA345 : Wow. Firstly, the word is spelled criticism. Secondly, if that didn't make you seem like the biggest moron, I don't know what more you have to write.
108 Post contains images Corey07850 : Yeah, what he said... Even a Comm/Multi/Inst, I wouldn't even begin to question PhilSquares choice of socks for a flight, much less their piloting ab
109 Amazonphil : The typical A.netter with no experience, qualifications..think they know something about a topic that they no NOTHING ABOUT comment. I never claimed
110 Post contains images PhilSquares : I have no problem with any criticism from anyone. However, it has to be based on reality and your statements haven't been based on reality. I'm not p
111 FSPilot747 : You're right. I could have been more civilized in my post, and for that I apologize. For the record, though, I didn't call you an idiot. I was referr
112 Outlier : Hey, this thread has rocked the foundation of my entire being! Good to know I've got the schtick down. I can go on one of those talent tv shows now!
113 Fly727 : I do. What began as a pretty interesting thread is getting a little out of hand... Is it too difficult for some to take the word of professionals? I
114 MoMan : Phil, I always enjoy reading your comments. Opinions are like assholes, every passenger has one and most of them stink. Safe flying.
115 MD88Captain : You can know very little about a flights conduct while sitting in the cabin. You here such stupid stuff from the "experts in the back". After so many
116 Post contains links AirWillie6475 : Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 105): Care to gives us a quick synopsis of your pilot qualifications and experience? From your profile it seems your still
117 Post contains links and images ZOTAN : Wrong. 20,000 hours of experience is a ton, and more then you will ever have. Someone with 20,000 hours of experience knows a lot more than you do, s
118 PhilSquares : Do you judge a surgeon's work? I don't think so. I would suggest going back and re-reading my post. Or perhaps you can explain why when someone doesn
119 Ual777 : You are very arrogant and very ignorant. Having 20,000 hours in heavy metal, and having 200 in a bugsmashing 172 is like driving a smart car and driv
120 Canyonblue737 : Let me chime in here as yet another guy with thousands of hours of heavy jet time... as a very experienced pilot (in particular if flying on your own
121 Post contains images Canyonblue737 : Many, many major airlines have nothing in their SOP banning hand flying based on altitude or phase of flight in normal operations. That includes the
122 AirWillie6475 : I never said I knew anything about weather ATC or other factors and it doesn't matter in my case, read my other post where you got your britches in a
123 PhilSquares : Oh, ok....now I understand, you don't have all the information, such as turbulence, flight control problems, ATC restrictions and yet you feel you ca
124 ZOTAN : How were you able to tell from the cabin that it was the pilots that caused a bumpy ride? What you just said doesn't matter, really does. Pilots don'
125 AirWillie6475 : What the hell are you talking about? Who said anything about bumpy. Why don't you try reading?
126 AirWillie6475 : WOW, that's exactly what I was thinking of you! The fact that I'm a pilot doesn't have anything to do with other than I'm not just an ordinary pax.
127 CptSpeaking : I totally agree. As a fellow pilot, I love to fly as well, but there are times when it can be not only easier to perform your duties, but safer as we
128 Post contains images CRGsFuture : I don't know about you, but as a student pilot I shut up when someone's trying to teach me stuff. All I do is take notes, and smile. The same when a
129 Post contains images Fly727 : Thanks for the correction! I incorrectly assumed that other operators SOP's were as strict as those from the airline I fly for. Absolutely nothing wr
130 N766UA : I know, and like PhilSquares said, after a long 4 day with alot of turns you're pretty well just ready to go home, which is understandable. However,
131 Ward86IND : I don't think you should consider the responses from pilots on this thread representative of all pilots. Quite frankly, SOME, NOT ALL real-world pilo
132 Post contains images Fly727 : WHERE'S THE BEEF? RM.
133 ZKSUJ : To answer the question. I don't think it affects you as a passenger. As far as I'm concerned, if you are a pilot sitting in the passenger cabin, who a
134 VEEREF : And each person is entitled to exactly that. What a GOOD or BAD landing is is really up to each of the few hundred or so individuals on the aircraft.
135 Nugpot : I don't know whether it is worth extending this thread with another post, but here goes. I don't live at my home base, so I spend a lot of time in the
136 Post contains images BlueShamu330s : .... and slagging him off for days afterwards to other work colleagues! Phil, you're a glutton for punishment on these boards, arguing with 16 year o
137 AirWillie6475 : Sorry wrong number, it's convenient to pick 16 for your argument isn't it?
138 BlueShamu330s : 16, 17, 18, 19, 20.....whatever. That's the age range on your profile, and the maturity of your responses reflects it. Grow up kiddo.
139 PhilSquares : So very true!!! I have given up on this thread, it's just not worth it!!!
140 Amazonphil : Phil, Phil here also. I have noticed your posts and respect your comments and accomplishments! I guess I don't quite know what to make of this thread
141 Post contains images SJCRRPAX : If I may add my Interesting thread, I'm glad you all responded, I had no idea it would be controversial. I've always been of the mind that any landing
142 PhilSquares : Phil, I agree with what you're saying, however your situation wasn't related to pilot ability/inability. That was weather related, not skill or SOP r
143 Post contains images Amazonphil : Agreed. However have you, in your wild youth(I had one.. ) have you gone down the freeway in your car or motorcycle at speeds that ummm, were a sligh
144 PhilSquares : However, how is that, to quote the thread starter, a "mistake". You illustrate my point exactly. The cabin doesn't have all the info and has to ask "
145 Amazonphil : It appears possibly we are talking about two different things here. I guess the observant pax whether pilot or just a pass would just notice that som
146 EmiratesA345 : Interesting... Yet you posted not once, not twice, but three more times. Kid, you are completely lost. I wish you the best in life because if you're
147 Amazonphil : I was doing just what I said I would do, reading on further..and posting to someone else that I could have a descent conversation with without the at
148 Jhooper : How does one land "too fast for a wet runway"? A pilot will fly his computed approach speed based primarily on landing weight and 1.3 times stalling s
149 Amazonphil : Experience my son, experience... I have somewhere around 1.8 +/- millon miles traveled on airliners. It's not that hard to tell, really, just observe
150 Amazonphil : Now this is an intelligent comment and answer about this whole thread! Wish more people would think like this before making some sort of uneducated t
151 Ward86IND : People that ride in cars out there...can you tell the difference from the passengers seat looking out, between 60-70 mph or 100-115 kph? I bet I could
152 Amazonphil : You have a very good comment here, however may I point out that any winds(headwinds hopefully) that would be affecting the approach isn't a factor..w
153 Ward86IND : Yeah, that's why I said "groundspeed-wise." Assumming calm winds, I don't doubt that you could tell an abnormally fast/slow approach.
154 MD88Captain : I just remembered an example from my past of a passenger (FAA Inspector) who thought the L1011 Captain was landing too fast. I was the FE and we were
155 Post contains images Baron95 : Of course I totally agree that it is virtually impossible to determine that from the back. But just for the heck of it, lets take the devil's advocat
156 Post contains images SJCRRPAX : Sometimes a post comes along that should end a thread. I mean, what else is left to say? I think that's a wrap. Anybody care to archive this thread n
157 EmiratesA345 : In order to be able to tell if the speed was too fast, you'd have to know what the perfect speed is in those weather conditions. Since the weather is
158 AirWillie6475 : Why would I want a job there??
159 Barney Captain : Cool, but ground speed has little to do with indicated airspeed. No, with all due respect, he could not. We don' t fly in a vacuum. Conditions change
160 Post contains images Baron95 : Dude - that was meant as satire to prove the point that there are too many variables which, any of which would be very hard for him to obtain making
161 VEEREF : Was the original poster's aircraft landing "faster' than he was used to? Probably. Was it "too fast"? Not likely. Just appropriately adjusted for weig
162 Amazonphil : This is an excellent post!! Nice VEEREF! Explains everything I have been attempting to point out, especially the BOG or UIO example. I fly to these c
163 Baron95 : At see level on a cold day with typical 15 knot head winds and light fuel and passanger loads you may have a ground speed not much above 100 Kts on a
164 Turnit56N : I am breaking my promise to myself and actually posting a second reply on this thread. I think part of the reason this has gone on so long is because
165 Post contains images SimProgrammer : PhilSquares. Im amazed any 744 pilots even bother to come here when you can have a pax in J31 telling you how to fly your plane. Keep up the good wor
166 PhilSquares : Thanks. I owe it all to a AA DC-4 Captain that I flew with when I was about 4. If it wasn't for him, no telling what I'd be doing!!!!
167 Thepilot : I just had this happen to me at BFI the other day. I was taxiing to the runway and a Cargo 360 B742 passed behind me and turned the same direction. I
168 ChrisMUC : PhilSquares, thanks for your replies! Wanted to add something about Auto Pilot usage. I'm flying classic B737 in Europe and the A/P limits are 1000ft
169 PhilSquares : Hi Chris, I agree. I think both Airbus and Boeing recommend the use of automation to reduce workload. I think it's a great idea. Our MEL is structured
170 Amazonphil : Does your MEL structured policy have you then make the autopilot system "not Cat III"? At CO, it's this way, in a NG or 757, if one is out where the
171 PhilSquares : Yes, on the 744 there are three autopilots, L,C,R. If you have one inop then you're limited to CAT II only. To be honest, the autopilot system is ext
172 Amazonphil : I agree with that. Here at CO maint. we RARELY MEL/placard an A/P itself to Cat II. as they really are very reliable. It almost always seems to have
173 Goldfinger : An experienced pilot does not have to keep repeating his experience ever so often as you have done with your frequent posts, unless you are trying to
174 PhilSquares : Please re-read my post, I never said anything about being dispatched with a controllability issue. No I did not quote him at all, I merely questioned
175 Goldfinger : Reread your post 34. You mention ATIS, MEL/CDL. How does a pre-departure unservicebility affect the flying segment such that an off-duty pilot could
176 TinkerBelle : Welcome to my RU list, sir!
177 Post contains images Amazonphil : At least somebody now is siding with my arguements! Thanks Goldfinger! Welcome to the A.net and my RU list! There are very smart and diserning youngst
178 FSPilot747 : But, who wants to mentor a bunch of 80 hour *know it alls*?
179 Moek2000 : I flew into AMS this summer and upon a rough landing, I told the guy next to me that the pilot could have done a better job. But he told me that he di
180 FSPilot747 : Side slip maneuver for x/wind landing
181 PhilSquares : I assume you mean safe when you wrote save?? However, now we're changing the post to reflect safety vs. mistake. However, let me get this straight, a
182 VEEREF : Wow this thread is still going? This is one of the reasons I'm glad I fly freight. I don't have to justify my landings to anyone but myself, my crew a
183 Goldfinger : Not me. Pretty dramatic!!!. Maybe a job on broadway. It's words and criticism like these that we should refrain from using and let everyone have thei
184 ThrottleHold : Not on any Boeing aircraft that I've ever flown. The autopilot will land with crab, this being one of the reasons for reduced crosswind limits on CAT
185 Amazonphil : Been on a few autolands in our NG's and from what I saw, the autopilot held the aircraft with a 5-700 ft descent all the way until the 100ft call out
186 Aerobalance : As a private pilot, an owner of an aerospace company and whose family involvement dates back to my great grandfather working with the Wright Bros., al
187 Goldfinger : Well Throttlehold, you have forced me to look at all your posts on this thread. With all your experience you cannot give one example? Let me. When the
188 Aerobalance : No Not all Again, where is my test bench. I don't have all of the info. in front of me as a passenger. Enquiring is theorizing - but don't call it a
189 PhilSquares : Ok, so let me get this straight, you are now the self appointed fourm police? And yet, you accuse other people of arrogance? Seems a little strange t
190 PlainSmart : Coming from a Cessna pilot with a few hundred hours of bug-smashing, I'll be the first to admit that it can even be difficult to accurately judge a la
191 ThrottleHold : From the 737 OM: 400FT RADIO ALTITUDE: The stabilizer is automatically trimmed an additional amount nose-up. If the A/P`s are subsequently disengaged
192 Supa7E7 : As a veteran of several video games I am well qualified to comment on this. Recently, I put on a uniform with a silver mustache and sat in coach, just
193 Goldfinger : No. A dictionary I consulted quotes "police" as an organisation that maintains the law or resolves crime. Have I done that? "Diatribe" is quoted as c
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