Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Boeing & Airbus New Development Maxed Out?  
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5370 times:

It seems like Boeing and Airbus have a lot of new developments on their plate right now. Is this normal to have this much going on? Are they maxed out? Is Boeing overloaded with new programs? I know there are lots of things A and B are working on, but these seem to be the major programs that have been launched.

Boeing has something new under each of their current families (excluding the 767)
787 including 787-3, 787-8, and 787-9
747-8
777F
737-900ER

Airbus doesn't seem like they will have as much once the 380 is certified:
380-800 and A380-800F
350 XWB (Which versions are they currently developing?)
330F (I thought this was underway but I can't find it on Airbus.com)

Please keep this discussion to the topic. No A vs B wars allowed.

11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30865 posts, RR: 86
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5339 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I know EADS is currently in the market for new engineers...

The 737-900ER, 777F and 747-8 are based on existing models, so the engineering resources needed to be dedicated to them are probably not very great. Boeing recently completed firm configuration design of the 777F, for example. And serious engineering work on the 748I doesn't need to begin until the first orders roll in (I am aware of the VIP order, but I am not sure how much "passenger-related" engineering it needs).

The 787 will probably require a good deal of engineering work, especially if the prototypes require "factory support" while the suppliers and subcontractors get up to speed, but again, this should not be onerous.


The A380 passenger model is in the final stages. Engineering work will be needed for the A380F model, as well as proposed variants like the A380-900 and A380-800SR, but those programs won't need full staffing until they are formally launched.

The A332F program is a progression of the A300F/A310F programs, so probably not a great deal of "new work" needs to be performed there.

The A350XWB will probably require a good deal of engineering, mainly because they can't draw directly on the tooling used in the A330/A340 series. So a good deal of production tooling and processes will need to be developed, and that will require additional staffing, most likely.


User currently offlineSeJoWa From United States of America, joined May 2006, 347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5281 times:

If I remember correctly, EADS in Germany is some 700 engineers and technicians short of requirements. That is obviously a very significant number - my source will probably have been either 'Die Zeit', the FT Deutschland or German Public Radio.

One reason is the DOLORES (Dollar low rescue?) program of the 90s that culled many engineers from the ranks and greatly discouraged prospective students.


User currently offlineKSUpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5255 times:

I don't know about Airbus, but Boeing doesn't show any signs of being overloaded. Some even think that once the 787 enters service in 2008, boeing will officially launch the 737-RS.

User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5206 times:

The Airbus A320 Enhanced series are under developement
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...dy+plans+with+upgraded+'A320.html

The A330 isn´t over yet. GE is suggesting to "slam some new engines under its wings" afterall..
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...GEnx+offered+for+future+A330s.html

Also some tanker & transport work seems to be under way (KC30 / A400)
http://www.flygplan.info/images/EADS_A400M.jpg
http://www.is.northropgrumman.com/kc30/

The A320 will enter the freighter market: http://en.carnoc.com/list/0/347.html

If the A380-900 is launched after the A380F this will take some engineering too.

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
Airbus doesn't seem like they will have as much once the 380 is certified:

Add the A350 and I think they´ll be OK.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9585 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5206 times:

With regards to Boeing, yes there is a lot going on, but the planes are in different stages of development. Each stage of development has its own engineers associated with it. There are preliminary design, testing, manufacturing, operations, procurement, etc. All these different areas are being utilized. This means that the company is doing well to utilize its resources.

For Boeing the 772LR just finished up testing. The 787 is mostly finished with design and the subsystems are in the testing phase, and manufacturing is being prepared. The 748 and 739ER are in the design phases. So you have different facets of the company being utilized which is very efficient.

One additional thing to remember is that the company has outsourced a lot of engineering work to contractors. Much of the integration of the plane is being handled by outside companies in large amounts. The engineering sources of these companies might be seeing strain, but many of the contractors supply parts for so many different airplanes so that they can simultaneously develop parts for different programs. For example Boeing has outsourced the complete integration of the electrical system to Hamilton Sundstrand, which built an entire facility called APSIF to test all the different facets of the electrical generation and control systems for the plane. This is work that I believe Boeing use to do in house.

Airplanes are not designed now the way they used to be. So much of the work is done by contractors. Boeing acts as a supervisor and coordinator for much of the different systems on the planes that it does final assembly of.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9997 posts, RR: 96
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4962 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):

Good thread, United787. Thanks.

I personally think you'll see the new development programmes maxed out for some considerable time to come.

I believe that we're seeing that the combination of high fuel prices and new ultra-efficient widebodys (787, A350X) is creating a new dynamic in the industry.
In many cases it will now make more financial sense for airlines to convert to the newer aircraft as soon as they can. Failure to do so could damage their competitiveness.

I think that we are about to see a) 787/A350X efficiencies brought to all ranges of aircraft and b) substantial technology enhancements brought to the market far more rapidly, by the OEM's and engine makers, driven by demand from the airlines.

I certainly don't see the recruitment of engineers dropping off anytime soon.
Those OEM's are going to be bringing us some GREAT aircraft in the next 2 decades  Smile

Regards


User currently offlineStickShaker From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 753 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4832 times:

If we leave out derivatives and freighters and just look at new programs it might look something like this (with a little guesswork).

Boeing:

2008-2013
787-3, 787-8, 787-9, 787-10

2015
797 (737NNG) subject to engine availablity

2018
Y3 350 seater

Airbus:

2007
A380-800

2008/9
A400M Military airlifter

2012-2014
A350XWB-800/900/1000

2015-2016
Composite A320 replacement - also subject to engine availibility.


The A400M is included as it will be the first all composite aircraft for Airbus and will require significant resources.
Airbus will have little to compete with the 773ER until the arrival of the 350-1000XWB in 2013. They should then enjoy a significant advantage until Y3 makes its debut around 2018 - competing with Y3 will be far more difficult than competing with an ageing (by then) 773ER. It will be interesting to see how Boeing react when the 350-1000 inevitably begins to steal sales from the 773ER.
The 380 has no effective competition in the 550+ seat market until later models of Y3 emerge around 2020 - even then they will only compete at the lower end. The 380-900 if launched will be further out of reach.

Not easy to gaze into the crystal ball and predict how the industry will be late into the next decade.
Quite a lot on the plate for both manufacturers - throw in the odd recession, war or bird flu pandemic and that might slow things down a bit.


Cheers,

StickShaker


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9585 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4775 times:

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 7):
The A400M is included as it will be the first all composite aircraft for Airbus and will require significant resources.

The A400 fits nicely in the development stage between the A380 and A350 since it is in the final design stage which means the contractors are doing much of the engineering. I don't think the A350 contracts have been awarded yet, or at least I haven't heard any announcements.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1724 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4714 times:

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
Is Boeing overloaded

Pretty close.

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 3):
Boeing doesn't show any signs of being overloaded

Their current hiring of engineers indicates otherwise.
They have hired pretty much all the local engineers available. To increase engineering staff further, they will have to bring them in from further away, pay alot more or both.

Boeing stole one my best guys last week and just about every engineer I know (including myself) have been approached recently.

Tod


User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2212 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4559 times:

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 7):
The A400M is included as it will be the first all composite aircraft for Airbus

I don't think the A400M has a composite fuselage. See here.

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 7):
The 380-900 if launched will be further out of reach.

The A380-900 is a walk in the park compared to these other programmes. I'm surprised it didn't show up on your list. I would expect it (market willing) to enter service around 2012... that's when the new-generation engines can be handed down from the A350XWB. There is already industry speculation on power for the A350 being shared with the A380-900 in this FI article. Probably ditto for a longer range version of the A380-800.


User currently offlineStickShaker From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 753 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4533 times:

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 10):
Quoting StickShaker (Reply 7):
The A400M is included as it will be the first all composite aircraft for Airbus

I don't think the A400M has a composite fuselage. See here.

Looks like it doesn't - thanks for the link.

I agree the 380-900 is far simpler than the other programs - was just highlighting the lack of competition in that segment. The sharing of 350 engines for the 389 is interesting - should produce impressive CASM figures for the 389 and assist the payload/range for the 388R.

Interesting times ahead.


Cheers,
StickShaker


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
CX Orders New Boeing's & Airbus's posted Thu Apr 15 2004 04:34:01 by Sydscott
Why I Love Boeing & Airbus (and What I Don't Like) posted Sun Mar 5 2006 22:40:44 by JAAlbert
WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Cause Cfrp Price Hike posted Tue Jan 24 2006 18:41:46 by N328KF
WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory posted Sat Jan 14 2006 17:35:26 by BoomBoom
Pressure On Boeing & Airbus To Improve 737&A320? posted Sat Nov 5 2005 01:14:35 by Keesje
Boeing & Airbus; Pots & Kettles posted Wed Oct 6 2004 01:26:33 by Arrow
Boeing & Airbus Reject BBD On Ncap posted Fri Jun 18 2004 22:34:03 by Planemaker
BA Talking To Boeing & Airbus On 767 Replacement posted Tue Sep 2 2003 09:25:04 by Keesje
Boeing & Airbus' Face Future Competition From Who? posted Thu Jun 26 2003 17:31:14 by DIA
Boeing & Airbus Production Comparisons posted Mon Jul 22 2002 15:19:51 by MEA