Hush-Kit From Germany, joined Sep 2000, 124 posts, RR: 0 Posted (8 years 9 months 1 day ago) and read 7568 times:
for a short time after PAN AM's breakdown in the late 80'ies, Delta overtook not only PAN AM's transatlantic London - bound routes, but also some of PAN AM's A310 (part of the deal). DL wasn 't pleased to operate A310's, as Airbus in general until today, so the 310 had to leave the fleet very soon. Where did they go ???
Delta777Jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1388 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day ago) and read 7530 times:
United took over Pan Am`s London/Heathrow rights! The only flight which Delta took over was Detroit - London/Gatwick!
Delta flew the A-310`s till 1995/96 and they flew all over Europe mostly from New York/JFK to Berlin/Hamburg/Bruxxles/Copenhagen and Frankfurt
and beyond Frankfurt to Destinations like Budapest, Athens, Istanbul
Delta had several 727 and 310 based in Frankurt between 1991-1995 !
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 23 hours ago) and read 7259 times:
When DL took over PA's transatlantic operarations......they also acquired 21 A310s that were operated by Pan Am; 7 A310-200s and 14 A310-300s were part of the deal. DL operated the A310s on the transatlantic services out of JFK and also flew a handful of routes from ATL and CVG....the A310s also showed up on some JFK-LAX/SFO transcons. The A310-200s were problematic, they were short on range and made transatlantic operations difficult; the A312s were used on shorter transatlantic routes such as JFK-BRU and JFK-AMS and there were issues even on these routes and frequently loads had to be restriced on the westbound journeys. (I flew on PA/DL A312s between BRU and JFK several times...rarely on the BRU-JFK segment could the flight go out with a fully loaded coach cabin.) Nothing wrong with the airplane, it simply was not designed for such long segments and using any airplane at its absolute limit is problematic.
DL then went on to order/lease additional A310-300s from Airbus....these A313s were among the last A310s to be built and delivered; the airplanes were leased from Airbus and the intent was to replace the A312s with new, more capable A313s. Shortly after the new A313s were delivered, DL was experiencing continued losses on its transatlantic operations (especially the JFK-Europe flights) and made severe cutbacks in services....in conjuction with the cutbacks, DL decided to eliminate the A310 from its fleet and go with the 763ER as its primary trans-atlantic airliner. Being that the A310 fleet was leased, all of the airplanes made their way back to Airbus and were placed with new operators as described in the posts above.
DL seemed to like the A310, but they liked the 763ER better.....and being that the 763ER fleet was larger, that became DL's transatlantic airplane. Also note that the 763ER is more versatile, carries more passengers, and has more range than even the most capable A313, so it was probably the right decision.
Note that PanAm also operated a fleet of A300B4s (mainly on domestic and caribbean/latin american services).....DL did not take those airplanes as part of the Pan Am deal.
BigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2973 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 6958 times:
Quoting Hush-Kit (Reply 12): DELTAMIA: DL took over MIA - LGW from PA, you mean just the traffic rights, yeah??? Not the A310 on this leg
I might be on crack, but I thought this route went to Eastern which was, in turn picked up by AA when they acquired EA's MIA international operations. Since AA was a Bermuda 2 carrier by then (and MIA a Bernuda 2 gateway), they were able to switch the authority to Heathrow.
AAL0616 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 274 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 9 hours ago) and read 6560 times:
Pan Am's Miami-London authority was to Heathrow and the senior USA holder, having purchased it when they acquired National Airlines. At that time, 1979, there was strong opposition to Pan Am from Eastern, who wanted the National authority. Pan Am, which had been bid up to a problematic purchase price for National by Frank Lorenzo and Texas International, argued that their entire transaction was compromised without the Miami-London authority. The Carter administration approved the transfer to Pan Am. The rest is history.
Eastern was given authority to fly the parallel route to London Gatwick. You may recall that British Airways, like Pan Am, held and still holds Miami-Heathrow. Several generations of Miami-Gatwick UK charter and scheduled competitors came and went before Virgin came along and was able to move the UK-based Miami-Gatwick service to Heathrow, where they had slots.
Here's a trivia factoid for you. Before BOAC, can anyone recall which UK-licensed carrier flew Miami-Nassau-Bermuda-London? British Eagle.
Back to point, as I mentioned in another thread, one might fault United for not demanding Miami-London when they bought the US-Heathrow authorities and slots, then, later, backing out of negotiations with Delta in the summer of 1991 regarding Delta's acquisition of the remainder of the Atlantic Division, Kennedy, Frankfurt and route authorities (Europe, Middle East, Africa) less Heathrow, which United had already grabbed; or, once Delta pulled the plug in December, 1991, fighting for Miami-Heathrow.
When United tool Heathrow, Pan Am clung to Miami and Detroit, transferring them to Gatwick. At this same time, as has been stated, Eastern sold their Panagra-Braniff South American services to American and, led by their far-sighted machinists union and Charlie Bryan, Eastern blew up. By then, American had entered Heathrow alongside United by purchasing TWA's authority. Hence, shiny silverbirds were probably inevitably bound for Miami-Heathrow.
Not being an attorney and only having a sporting interest in route negotiations or rules, as I understand it, the governing rules appear only to allow one USA competitor on Miami-Heathrow and the second is stuck with Gatwick, which is why United stayed out, only flying their 747s for a brief time on an emergency basis after Pan Am was euthanized. Wny, then, a lopsided deal where two UK carriers can fly the route? I've never figured this out, as many times as I've looked out over the Atlantic eastbound from Miami.
Back to the Pan Am and Delta A-310s, from our perspective now, this seems like a surreal conversation, given the subsequent mass of Delta 767 metal crossing the pond. However, at the time, Tom Plaskett was serious about downsizing and populating non-London services with the busses, in an attempt to improve cost and revenue performance and serve more stations nonstop before longer-range and better-payload Airbus equipment was available or the company could be stabilized enough by accelerating transfer of mainline narrow-bodies into Miami. Sadly,Lockerbie, the weight of history and American pouncing on the Eastern carcass in Miami all made it a mute point.
It was interesting once to find myself on a Delta A-310 from New York to San Francisco, staffed with a former Pan Am flight deck and cabin crew. We had a great conversation up front and the folks seemed pleased to be with Delta for the most part. It was strange to look at the Airbus cockpit layout and avionics as compared to a Boeing 727 layout. The Airbus-type feel became more familiar later, albeit in tan, with the 767 and 757 and now 777 layout.
Fed Ex must get something out of the birds and I keep seeing them every morning in several markets on their 6:00 a.m. or so arrivals.
FoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3032 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 6212 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 18): DL also operated their A310's to LIS for a brief period, I think they went to replace PA.
Yes, that's right. My only flight on a DL A310 was JFK-LIS (DL96) in December 1994. It was operated by N835AB, one of the A310-324s built for DL, which was quite new at the time. Nice flight, as I recall.
Going just a bit off-topic, I wonder if we might see DL return to LIS in the near future, especially if DL starts flying 757s from JFK across the Atlantic...
The PA aircraft were crap. Worn interiors, no real galley to serve J class (all food cooked in F class, back of the planes smelled like blue juice. The new ones DL bought were great! Proper galleys, comfortable plane for passengers, good overhead space. I was sorry to see those planes leave.
FoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3032 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 2 hours ago) and read 4055 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 22): DL back to LIS? That would be excelent but I doubt it, now we have CO flying to EWR, US to PHL and TP also to EWR from LIS and OPO...looks to me that the market is quite saturated!
True. However, word is that DL will continue to build its JFK gateway, and LIS seems to be one of the larger markets in Europe that DL does not serve at the moment.
Back to the original topic (sort of), I seem to recall that my JFK-LIS A310 flight in December 1994 continued on to NCE. Can anyone confirm?
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
: Stephen Wolf wanted Miami-Heathrow badly but because as you stated AA was already into LHR with the old Air Florida, and then EA route authority (eve
: wow had no idea DL operated so many A310s at once I don't know which routes it was on but the only DL A310 I've ever seen I saw it in Miami, in 1993
: Some of the Atlantic authority Delta acquired, flew but withdrew, including Gatwick but also San Francisco-Frankfurt and Dulles-Frankfurt were flown w
: I think that their aircraft were flying quit a lot, the first A310-200 was delivered in May 1985 and the first A310-300 was delivered in June 1987. P
: What might have become of UA's MIA opps if they had been able to serve MIA-LHR? Would it have been possible for UA to maintain its MIA presence and c
: TP's flights to EWR, with 7 weekly year round and 10 weekly during summer and peak periods, presented one of the highest loads among its routes durin
: The IAD-FRA at least was also operated with the 763ER as was I believe LAX-FRA (when it existed).