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F9 Extends $59 LAX-SFO Fare. "We're Very Patient"  
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25416 posts, RR: 49
Posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5353 times:

As predicted by some, Frontier has extended its introductory $59 fares between LAX-SFO which were to have expired at the end of July.
Fares are now available indefinately travel well into the winter.

According to F9's Chief financial officer Paul Tate in the Denver Post, the new route has not had "immediate high load factors". That was expected, he said. "We're very patient about that".

Also no surprise both AA and UA have nearly matched the Frontier fares with $69 offerings themselves.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2987 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5267 times:

Not surprising. This route is in a really dense and competitive market. Good for F9 sticking around awhile to see if it turns into something golden.

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineDesertAir From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 1462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5246 times:

I am happy to see that they are not being scared off as the route developes. I do think it is an odd one for them. I like the way they are expanding into Mexico from Denver and other cities. These type of routes will make them more attractive for passengers who will have FFM to burn.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5246 times:

I'm trying to book it in a couple weeks, but they are running a 7:15 and 8:15 AM flight, and then nothing again until after noon. This sucks for anyone who wants to leave LAX at 10AM or so, considering all the other carriers have myriad options in that time...


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineEmSeeEye From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5201 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
I'm trying to book it in a couple weeks, but they are running a 7:15 and 8:15 AM flight, and then nothing again until after noon. This sucks for anyone who wants to leave LAX at 10AM or so, considering all the other carriers have myriad options in that time...

Do they have enough planes to fill more frequencies?


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25416 posts, RR: 49
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5128 times:

I suppose time will tell how the route develops for them.

Certainly they are not a natural for the market, nor a name people associate with intra-California service which is why loads remain light and the $59 fare has been extended.

The key to ever making this route a success will be lots of advertising and getting the Frontier name out to the market. With United, Southwest and American having common household name recognition along with massive frequent flyer followings, getting people to remember let alone try Frontier is not an easy task.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
I'm trying to book it in a couple weeks, but they are running a 7:15 and 8:15 AM flight, and then nothing again until after noon. This sucks for anyone who wants to leave LAX at 10AM or so, considering all the other carriers have myriad options in that time...

The current schedule seems to be optimized for the same day early morning business traveller. I'd agree however two flights spaced so close are not ideal for a person that does not want to fly at the crack of dawn and cant be that easy to fill back to back. Most likely has something to do with aircraft utilization.

Lets see if they tinker with the schedule during the coming months.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineIceTitan447 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5090 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
Also no surprise both AA and UA have nearly matched the Frontier fares with $69 offerings themselves.

Seriously though, can F9 continue just to prove a point? they dont have the frequencies AA,UA have , right? How much longer?


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5079 times:
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Quoting Laxintl (Reply 5):
The key to ever making this route a success will be lots of advertising and getting the Frontier name out to the market.

This was discussed in last week's conference call.

They said that the route would always depend on the "awareness" factor, that it was performing "slightly above expectations" and that they are seeing some flights with load factors "in excess of 90%".

They also said they are still "tinkering" with the timings.

They also mentioned LAX-SJD - if it gets final approval - in the same breath. It will be interesting to see if they connect to that (if approved) from an existing SFO-LAX flight, or if this is when they would add the talked about 6th frequency.

cheers

marienr



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNZblue From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 638 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4988 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
they are seeing some flights with load factors "in excess of 90%".

Indeed. I recently worked an F9 SFO-LAX flight and we had 120 passengers on board. I again work this segment four times this Friday and, having looked ahead at the loads to expect, I can tell you they are full, full, full!



It's an entirely different kind of flying; all together.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4953 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 5):
The current schedule seems to be optimized for the same day early morning business traveller.

Yep, but for my purposes, my girlfriend, who lives 50 minutes from me, would have to get to my house by 6:15AM so we can make the 8:15AM flight. If we wait until 12:45, we lose 2.5 hours in the SFO area, not great for a weekend trip with limited time. I guess it allows people to have morning meetings in LA and then get back to SFO for afternoon meetings.

They should consider adding a frequency on Friday and Sunday in both directions. But I guess if they can't fill the seats, why would they do it? Maybe changing the morning flight times on Friday and Sunday?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25416 posts, RR: 49
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4667 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
They also mentioned LAX-SJD - if it gets final approval - in the same breath. It will be interesting to see if they connect to that (if approved) from an existing SFO-LAX flight

Using a thru flight number is certainly possible.

I'm still waiting to see what F9 decides to do with FIS at LAX, whether they decide to use TBIT or T-2. I understand they are reviewing the costings for both.

Quoting NZblue (Reply 8):
I again work this segment four times this Friday and, having looked ahead at the loads to expect, I can tell you they are full, full, full!

Its not too hard to fill Bay Area-SoCal flights on a Friday. Its more indicative of how F9 might be doing how a Tuesday or Saturday afternoon might look.

Out of curiosity F9 does use a pair of aircraft to cycle back and forth between LAX-SFO or do they intermingle with the DEN flights regularly?

From an ops point of view will be interesting to see what F9 does come the winter and the well know and extensive ATC delays up and down the corridor when winter storms bring the rain, winds and low ceilings to the Bay Area.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13608 posts, RR: 61
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4665 times:
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Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
According to F9's Chief financial officer Paul Tate in the Denver Post, the new route has not had "immediate high load factors". That was expected, he said. "We're very patient about that".

Patient, foolish, whatever. They're just words.  duck 



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4425 times:
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Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
According to F9's Chief financial officer Paul Tate in the Denver Post,

Any chance of a link to the article? I've done a search on both the Denver Post and the Rocky Mountain News using both Frontier Airlines and then, separately, Paul Tate - but without success.

And I've tried a Google News search, but no luck.

TIA.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 11):
Patient, foolish, whatever. They're just words.

Ah, the competition speaks.  wave 

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5804 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4371 times:

Mariner, the quotes in the original post seem to be the ones from the earnings article. See the bottom.
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_4105071

I haven't seen an article confirming the fare continues. I'm guessing that info is from a res system.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4358 times:

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 13):
I haven't seen an article confirming the fare continues. I'm guessing that info is from a res system.

They are still bookable. $118+35 in fees and taxes R/T... They also have the $79 and $99 and $109 fares, just like WN and others.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4343 times:
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Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 13):
Mariner, the quotes in the original post seem to be the ones from the earnings article. See the bottom.

Thanks, FATFlyer, I see that now.

I had read that article, but I didn't connect it with any continued sale. I think it is still more expensive than DEN-SLC.  Smile

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25416 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4248 times:

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 13):
Mariner, the quotes in the original post seem to be the ones from the earnings article

 checkmark  Thats the one.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 13):
I haven't seen an article confirming the fare continues. I'm guessing that info is from a res system.



Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):
but I didn't connect it with any continued sale

Connection was mine that I made. Frontier on Monday blast emailed out info to folks in the travel industry that the $59 fare which was due to expire 7/31 would be available for sale indefinitely for travel into 2007.

I read the Denver Post 7/28 article and Frontier email on the same day.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4237 times:
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Quoting Laxintl (Reply 16):
I read the Denver Post 7/28 article and Frontier email on the same day.

I understand that now, I got the clue from FATFlyer.

But thanks, anyway.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4159 times:

I so wanted to take F9 but ended up having to book WN BUR-SJC instead do to timing.

Maybe next time, F9.

But it'll be my first WN flight, so that'll be fun!



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13608 posts, RR: 61
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4065 times:
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Quoting Mariner (Reply 12):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 11):
Patient, foolish, whatever. They're just words.

Ah, the competition speaks.

cheers

mariner

I don't know that I'd call AS "The Competition" with our single LAX-SFO flight. LAX-SJD is another matter of course, though...  Wink



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4042 times:
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Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 19):
I don't know that I'd call AS "The Competition" with our single LAX-SFO flight. LAX-SJD is another matter of course, though

Oh. Sorry. Gosh. I wasn't just thinking of LAX-SFO.  wave 

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3901 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
As predicted by some, Frontier has extended its introductory $59 fares between LAX-SFO



Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
Also no surprise both AA and UA have nearly matched the Frontier fares with $69 offerings themselves.

For every seat on every flight -- or is it typical bait-and-switch airline pricing where most pax will pay 2-4 times more than the advertised fare to fly on the dates/times they prefer?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 19):
I don't know that I'd call AS "The Competition" with our single LAX-SFO flight. LAX-SJD is another matter of course, though...

But I thought Alaska has about 8-10 daily frequencies each way in the SFO-LAX market. Wink Howver, by some bizarre coincidence, it seems that AA flies "wingtip-to-wingtip" on each and every one of the AS flights...now that's what I would call brutal competition!!!  Wink (With empasis on  Wink)


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25416 posts, RR: 49
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3891 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 21):
For every seat on every flight -- or is it typical bait-and-switch airline pricing where most pax will pay 2-4 times more than the advertised fare to fly on the dates/times they prefer?

Looking in the computer, the majors have $69, $79, $89 etc..fare buckets. Once one sells out the next one is avail.

For fun I just priced a $138 trip on UA for late August with multiple flight options each direction , so its certainly possible to purchase.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3858 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):
For fun I just priced a $138 trip on UA for late August with multiple flight options each direction , so its certainly possible to purchase.

yep, availability is pretty good on all carriers, though none have matched the $59 fare. (WN already offered it, F9 was matching them, so it doesn't count).

The other majors really don't have to. They don't have to win customers, just not lose customers. They have so many frequencies and options, F9 is at a disadvantage. After all, i wanted to fly them and still ended up on WN...

Chasing the $59 customer doesn't make sense for UA and AA. BestBuy realized that chasing the ultra cheapskate customer who would shop elsewhere in a second was losing them money. hopefully the majors are realizing this, too. Let WN fight with F9 for the $59 "funfare" customer in this market, and the majors can start fighting at $69 and above...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26499 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3851 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
Chasing the $59 customer doesn't make sense for UA and AA. BestBuy realized that chasing the ultra cheapskate customer who would shop elsewhere in a second was losing them money. hopefully the majors are realizing this, too. Let WN fight with F9 for the $59 "funfare" customer in this market, and the majors can start fighting at $69 and above...

Actually, the reason legacies have been struggling is that they seel too many "funfares" while WN is the one cleaning up on yield. What makes the most economic sense is offering the lowest fares, but limiting them and going after last minute traffic with reasonable flexible fares as opposed to monopolistic pricing.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 25, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3830 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
What makes the most economic sense is offering the lowest fares, but limiting them and going after last minute traffic with reasonable flexible fares as opposed to monopolistic pricing.

I don't agree with the first part, but do the second. I don't think anyone needs to compete with the $59 fare, because it is limited even at WN, and $59 customers show little if any loyalty nor do they bring in any profit. They may bring customers to the airline to see, but if the fares are limited and sold out, it will only anger the customer who thinks the fare is a scam.

Further, WN fares don't show up on travelocity or orbitz or what have you, which is what F9 is counting on. On those sites, F9 is cheapest, at least until they sell out those limited $59 seats, but they don't offer the frequency or options in the market to steal away customers en masse. After all, a lot of people will look and say: "is $20 saved worth getting up too early?" Or worse: "do to bad timing, sure, I'm saving $20 in airfare, but I'm spending MORE than that on extra rental car time..."

But the second half, with more reasonable fares up to the last minute, is the key.

WN has max of $117 each way in the LA to SF market right now, while AA and UA can approach $400 or more when you get close to departure at a peak time. Despite no monopoly, they still price these tickets at a ridiculous pricepoint. And nobody can tell me that on a 1:05 block time flight that you are getting anything but an airtaxi and a can of soda anyway...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
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