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If Delta Does NOT Order The 787-3...  
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6632 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7595 times:

What would be the fate of some of the Florida destinations served by Delta? I know that the 787-8 will have to use Concourse E at ATL, and cannot land at LGA. Out of the Florida airports, I know that MCO and MIA can support the 787-8, although in the fall schedules, Delta has elimnated widebodies from MIA. In question are FLL, JAX, and TPA. From Delta, those airports don't get anything larger than the 767-400ER, which has a shorter wingspan than the 787-8. In fact, Delta is the only airline to fly widebodies into JAX. The 787-3 would be able to use those three airports, and could use Concourse T and Concourse A at ATL. Does anyone have any thoughts on what would happen if Delta did not order the 787-3?


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31240 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7559 times:
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I tend to think that the US airlines will want flexability and will forgo the 787-3 in favor of the 787-8 and 787-9, since it allows them to use the planes on more profitable international routes as well as high-density short-haul.

User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12564 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7541 times:

I'd be very surprised if they did; I think the days of w/b domestics, apart from trunk routes (transcontinental) are gone. Airlines seem now to be desperately trying to move these acft to t/a routes. I agree with Stitch that an order for 787-8/9 (possibly -10s, ultimately, to replace the old 772s) is much more likely. DL will need a pretty large 787 fleet to replace the 767s anyway and if it needs to operate some of these on domestic flights like ATL-MCO/LAX, it can do so with these.

User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6632 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7491 times:

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 2):
I'd be very surprised if they did; I think the days of w/b domestics, apart from trunk routes (transcontinental) are gone. Airlines seem now to be desperately trying to move these acft to t/a routes. I agree with Stitch that an order for 787-8/9 (possibly -10s, ultimately, to replace the old 772s) is much more likely. DL will need a pretty large 787 fleet to replace the 767s anyway and if it needs to operate some of these on domestic flights like ATL-MCO/LAX, it can do so with these.

Delta has NO plans to put the non-ER 767-300s on transatlantic routes. They will not be spending the money on getting them ETOPS-rated. Only 8 767-400ERs are being converted to international. Delta does not have enough 757s to handle all of the domestic routes served by the non-ER 767-300s. The 787-3 would be a perfect aircraft for ATL-MCO/TPA/FLL/JAX, ATL-LGA, ATL-SJU, ATL-CVG/JFK/SLC, transcontinental and near-transcontinental flights (such as ATL-LAS), Latin America, and possibly West Coast-Hawaii flights if the ETOPS 757s are not used on those flights.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8971 posts, RR: 39
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7423 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):

I think Kaitak was talking about a trend, not that DL has any concrete plans. When they order the 787s, which I think they will, they will probably look at the w/b flying domestic and maybe reconsider.

The current 757s and domestic 763s can continue flying domestic until they have a replacement- maybe a 739ER? Or even the new 737s in the works.

Cheers



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6632 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7402 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
I think Kaitak was talking about a trend, not that DL has any concrete plans. When they order the 787s, which I think they will, they will probably look at the w/b flying domestic and maybe reconsider.

Some routes, such as ATL-HNL, cannot be served by the 757 or the 787-3. The ideal aircraft for this route is the 787-9, but it is highly unlikely that Delta will use aircraft in an international configuration with BusinessElite on the route. The 737RS is a long way down, and to replace the non-ER 767-300s, the 787-3 is the ideal aircraft. While some will argue aginst using it on Florida routes, at ATL it doesn't have to use Concourse E. The 787-3 can use Concourse T and Concourse A at ATL. In addition, the 787-3 is a good aircraft for Latin American operations.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2184 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7368 times:

DL has lots of widebodies flying domestically out of ATL, that includes the 764, their largest plane capacity-wise.

It is likely that they will eventually be interested by the 787-3. But the 764 are fairly new so B might wanna be very patient with that!

I see quite unlikely that instead the 787-8/9 will be deployed on these routes (to fill possible free times between 2 int'l rotations) as the demand is mostly for high-density flights with few J seats. And DL probably has enough int'l routes out of ATL so that the problem desn't even shows up.

(I flew the 764 ATL-SLC once, besides the no-meal "service", what a pleasant ride. Very cool plane, very comfy...(as much as Y can be "comfy")



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineBDL2DCA From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7333 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 6):
But the 764 are fairly new so B might wanna be very patient with that!

If I were a betting man, which I'm not, I'd bet that Delta will use 787s to replace 767s flying internationally while reconfiguring the newest 767s back to Domestic. Old 767s will be retired and that the newest of the 767s will be flying domestically for a good 15 years.

If Delta does buy 783s, they will be the last to be delivered, and that will be many years into the future.



146,319,320,321,333,343,722,732,733,734,735,73G,738,744,752,762,763,772,ARJ,BE1,CRJ,D9S,D10,DH8,ERJ,E70,F100,S80
User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7307 times:

For now Delta got relative new 767-400ER, wich do the job fine on Trunk flight within the USA. By the time they need to be replaced, im sure Boeing or Airbus has a better alternative than the 787-3, or they could just go for the 787-9 , wich offers the same capicity , but more range doesn't it?

User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6632 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7112 times:

Quoting BDL2DCA (Reply 7):
If I were a betting man, which I'm not, I'd bet that Delta will use 787s to replace 767s flying internationally while reconfiguring the newest 767s back to Domestic. Old 767s will be retired and that the newest of the 767s will be flying domestically for a good 15 years.

If Delta does buy 783s, they will be the last to be delivered, and that will be many years into the future.

However, the 787-3 would be more efficient on domestic routes than the 767-300ER or the 787-8. It uses less fuel than both aircraft. Delta actually had eight 767-300ERs configured as domestic aircraft, but have been converted to international.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7087 times:

737-900 then since it can land at LGA and can seat nearly as many as the 757 now.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineDc10s4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7050 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
I know that the 787-8 will have to use Concourse E at ATL, and cannot land at LGA.

Why cant it? The DC10 and L10 both used LGA. The 787 is not much larger, plus with a better wing and higher thrust engines LGA should not even be an issue


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6632 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6964 times:

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 11):
Why cant it? The DC10 and L10 both used LGA. The 787 is not much larger, plus with a better wing and higher thrust engines LGA should not even be an issue

The 787-8 has a longer wingspan than the DC-10, L-1011, or the 767-400ER.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineBDL2DCA From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6964 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
However, the 787-3 would be more efficient on domestic routes than the 767-300ER or the 787-8. It uses less fuel than both aircraft.

If you ignore capital costs, fine. But I doubt that Delta will focus on ordering new widebodies for the domestic market. They will critically replace the international 767s and use the best 767s for domestic. Then, maybe 15 years from now, if the market warrants it, they will get 783s to replace the birds they converted to domestic.

Fuel efficiency is important, but if a US carrier is going to invest a lot in capital, they are going to spend it on their international routes, where the yield still warrants it.



146,319,320,321,333,343,722,732,733,734,735,73G,738,744,752,762,763,772,ARJ,BE1,CRJ,D9S,D10,DH8,ERJ,E70,F100,S80
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8690 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6875 times:

I opting that DL will order a bunch of 788/789 planes.. No need for 783 as others have said.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineNADC10Fan From United States of America, joined May 2005, 165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5881 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
What would be the fate of some of the Florida destinations served by Delta? I know that the 787-8 will have to use Concourse E at ATL, and cannot land at LGA. Out of the Florida airports, I know that MCO and MIA can support the 787-8, although in the fall schedules, Delta has elimnated widebodies from MIA. In question are FLL, JAX, and TPA. From Delta, those airports don't get anything larger than the 767-400ER, which has a shorter wingspan than the 787-8 ...

Well, I can't speak to JAX or TPA - although I think TPA has handled plenty of widebodies previously. No idea about now ...

However, I can say that during the winter tourist season, I've seen A332s - I believe in Air Transat livery - at FLL. With a wingspan of 197ft, that's equivalent to the 788. So the 788s at least could be flown into FLL ... although I think that Delta is more likely to act as others have said, reconfig their 763s and 764s as necessary to the service.



TANSTAAFL!
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8971 posts, RR: 39
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5798 times:

They could, however, be useful as far as NYC-Western Europe flights go. . . NYC-FRA and as far south as MAD are all within the -3s optimun design range, and the extra capacity should be welcomed. And I don't think it would be a terrible idea to offer just few transcons with BizElite in addition to the regular norrowbody service from NYC to, say, LAX? Lots of very high yielding O&D.

What do you guys think? Would the -3's lower MTOW prohibitively affect European flights?

Cheers

[Edited 2006-08-05 18:58:51]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5484 times:

Well, Delta has operated the 777 to FLL before on charters, so they could deal with the wingspan of the 787-8 there. As far as JAX goes, DL has brought the 764 and M11 there on occassions, but I'm not sure whether they ever scheduled a 777 there. Even if, JAX is rebuilding its entire airside terminal area, so by the time DL could be flying the 787, there will be a whole different terminal to deal with anyway.

Now, as far as the 787-3 goes, I read all the replies, and most of them only talk about using the 787-3 on domestic runs. But the fact of the matter is, the 787-3 would not only be good for high-density domestic routes, but easily can go south as far as Lima, even from JFK, and also reach many European cities from JFK. Given that fact, the 787-3, with a regular FY layout, could be used on both domestic routes as well as economy-heavy international routes, like Ireland. Also remember that DL is no stranger to operating non-ERs on international routes, most obvious examples being SJU, SDQ, CUN, AUA, LIM, SJO or GUA, which at one point or another have seen DL 767 service.
The 787-3 definitely has a chance with Delta in my book, but obviously primary focus for DL would be on the longhaul fleet.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6632 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5279 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 17):
Well, Delta has operated the 777 to FLL before on charters, so they could deal with the wingspan of the 787-8 there. As far as JAX goes, DL has brought the 764 and M11 there on occassions, but I'm not sure whether they ever scheduled a 777 there. Even if, JAX is rebuilding its entire airside terminal area, so by the time DL could be flying the 787, there will be a whole different terminal to deal with anyway.

Even with the new terminal at JAX, I don't think there will be any airlines other than Delta flying widebodies into JAX, as demand into JAX is much lower from airports other than ATL.

And what about TPA? Does TPA have gates that can fit the 787-8's wingspan?

[Edited 2006-08-07 19:42:24]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDLCnxgptjax From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 353 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5245 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 17):
As far as JAX goes, DL has brought the 764 and M11 there on occassions, but I'm not sure whether they ever scheduled a 777 there.

DL has never scheduled a 777 into JAX, as far as I know, but it has been sent in on equipment subs, and a diversion once.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13430 posts, RR: 100
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5224 times:
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I just cannot see DL keeping with the domestic widebody strategy. Customers want frequency and non-stops. One reason DL is hurting is the LCC's are bypassing the ATL hub and taking the customers where they want to go directly. While there will always be hubs, why fly LAX-ATL-TPA when LAX-TPA will easily fill 738's, etc. DL needs to rationalize their fleet. If not, expect the LCC's to fill the role.

Neil



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6632 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5152 times:

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
I just cannot see DL keeping with the domestic widebody strategy. Customers want frequency and non-stops. One reason DL is hurting is the LCC's are bypassing the ATL hub and taking the customers where they want to go directly. While there will always be hubs, why fly LAX-ATL-TPA when LAX-TPA will easily fill 738's, etc. DL needs to rationalize their fleet. If not, expect the LCC's to fill the role.

The thing is, Delta doesn't have enough narrowbodies to take over the role of all of the domestic widebodies, and the 737RS is a long way down. If you have ever flown any of the domestic widebodies, those aircraft are almost always filled (with the possible exception of ATL-SJU). My last 767-400ER flight from SLC-ATL was almost 100% full, even though it was connecting two hubs. Some routes, such as ATL-HNL, cannot be served by narrowbodies at all.

For the ex-TWA ETOPS 757s, routes to Hawaii have been considered, but I do believe the top priority is to put them on transatlantic routes.

[Edited 2006-08-07 21:03:05]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8690 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5114 times:

The 783 has a chance, but I think a small number will be ordered making it a niche a/c. If Boeing can expand its range to say 4500miles, DL will order it. I heard from my Uncle who works for Vought, that DL was talking to Boeing about 788/783 Deliveries in 10-11.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineGalapagapop From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 910 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5022 times:

-3's will be ordered a lot by US airlines reguardless of how travel is going right now, the capacity is a plus, it replaces the 767's but has more belly cargo which is perfect for Carribean flights and S. American flights, even as few as they are on DL. Right now ER equipment is moving off Domestic to International as the Major's are still left in debt and bad tastes from 90's for poor deployment of A/C. And are not ordering the a/c they actually need right now to expand, so the ER and ETOPS capable equipment is moving international, has nothing to do with a change in domestic traffic for the most part, but its their fault for lack of foresight in International growth.

User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31240 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5004 times:
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Quoting PPVRA (Reply 16):
They could, however, be useful as far as NYC-Western Europe flights go. . . NYC-FRA and as far south as MAD are all within the -3s optimun design range, and the extra capacity should be welcomed. And I don't think it would be a terrible idea to offer just few transcons with BizElite in addition to the regular norrowbody service from NYC to, say, LAX? Lots of very high yielding O&D.

One issue I see with this is that it would only allow DL to use these planes to the EU. What happens during "low season"? Do they fly empty seats or do they drop fares below cost to fill them and hope the incremental revenue covers the whole tab?

With 787-8s, they could service most (if not all) of DL's routes. So if traffic to the EU is soft, and Asia or Africa are strong, DL could re-task the 787-8 to serve those routes, something they could not do with the 787-3.


25 AirCanada014 : DL didn't even mention ordering 787s 3 or 8 or 9 series why have this post up when there's no word on it yet even though we know sooner or later they
26 Post contains images Stitch : Idle speculation is one of our pasttimes here on a.net.
27 Post contains images DAL767400ER : That's what I was referring to, fully aware that DL 764 or M11 flights to JAX usually use flight numbers in the 9XXX sequence . South America. Depend
28 Express1 : Im sure there is a website that shows statistics of commercial aircraft,if there is,it might give the answer to the questions above. dave
29 Mir : I believe that 777s were scheduled into JAX for a brief time when JAX had the Super Bowl. -Mir
30 Delta767300ER : I fly the MCO-ATL/ATL-MCO Route 10-15 times a year, mostly on 767-400's and nearly every flight is full. The ATL-Florida Routes warrant widebodies and
31 Post contains images DAL767400ER : Not any different from the 752s, plus the 738s on those flights will soon have PTVs, so that should satisfy most people .
32 Bobnwa : Don't the 738, 752, and the 764 have the same size seat in coach?
33 1337Delta764 : I think they do, but IMO the 767-400ER seats do seem to be wider than the 757-200. The 767-400ER also has headrests.
34 Stitch : DL uses a mix of 17" and 18" wide seats on the 764 and 17" on the 738/752.
35 ElmoTheHobo : Most, but not all US carriers. If (and when I'd suspect) American does order the 787, they will choose the -300 to replace the A300.
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