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Hawaiian Airlines - Why So Few Intl Routes?  
User currently offlineEmSeeEye From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 508 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6644 times:

I was checking out HA's website and I noticed they have pretty sparse international destinations. What is the reason for this? Why are there no routes to Japan? The last time I was in Honolulu or even Waikiki there seemed to be more Asians that Hawaiians. Also, what is their service like and how are they doing financially?

Thanks for the responses.

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4466 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6636 times:

I agree, it seems odd that Hawaiian or Aloha doesn't serve Japan. I can understand why they don't serve Europe, but Asia is a mystery.

It would seem that Hawaiian has the ability with 767 operations to serve Japan etc. I don't think Aloha and their 737-700s have the range.



"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2371 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6603 times:

Hawaiian has received various rights over the years to fly to Narita but was unable to secure the appropriate slots. Aloha served Taipei/Guam around 1984 with DC-10s (Aloha Pacific) but abandoned it shortly after starting.

HA applied for routes to China, and will again. Aloha will too I think. Both have been rumoured to try HNL-New Zealand also at various times.

I would expect more international routes to Asia from one or both once they get firmly on their financial feet.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineCRGsFuture From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6582 times:

I think the more important question is why doesn't HA serve the East Coast or Midwest?


Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2520 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6558 times:

FWIW, Japan Air Lines and Jalways have the Japan-HNL route covered. UA and NW also offer daily HNL departures to KIX and NRT as well. While it'd be great to see HA and AQ offer such service, it'd be pretty difficult as Japanese tourist arrivals are subject to fluctuations that can kill the leisure market. IIRC, 2006 arrivals are something like 8% off of the 2005 numbers. UA does well to NRT because it serves as their Asian hub and connects to a number of other markets to include ICN, HKG, BKK, etc.

I'm also not sure how a HNL-AKL route would do; I believe Air New Zealand just cut their number of weekly flights down due to reduced demand. Would a HNL-HKG route be possible? Currently, only UPS and KittyHawk serve it for cargo...


777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineMalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6525 times:

HNL-MNL would probably be a money maker


There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlineAlitaliaMD11 From Spain, joined Dec 2003, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6462 times:

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 3):
I think the more important question is why doesn't HA serve the East Coast or Midwest?

I don't think there is that much demand for another East Coast to Hawaii flight. Continental already has a daily flight to HNL with the 767-400 and you can connect on United, American, America West, and Delta.

Personally my mind of thought is that the East has the Caribbean and the West has Hawaii and the Pacific islands. Most people on the East coast prefer to travel to the Caribbean rather then to the Pacific and vice versa for the West.



No Vueling No Party
User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3669 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6368 times:
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The answer is simple, they don't have the route authority to fly them. Hawaii isn't very on on the authorities' list during these competitions. Look at the recent China authorities. Then you also have the fact that Hawaii is not a major destination for most Asian countries.

Yes, HA did have the route authority to fly to NRT, but they originally wanted to do it OGG-NRT, but that got dropped when the State dropped the plans to extend the OGG runway 2,000ft due to heavy opposition from Maui residents. They then wanted to fly HNL-NRT, but they couldn't get slots that would allow connections in Hawaii. AA later got the route authority, but they ran into the same slot problem.


Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 3):
I think the more important question is why doesn't HA serve the East Coast or Midwest?

The lack of money and equipment to open routes past the West Coast. The interisland market was a major drag on HA's profitability and limited them to low risk destinations so that they could support their interisland operations. Then they had their bankruptcy that caused them to reject the leases 2 of their 767s on order.

[Edited 2006-08-05 08:20:10]

User currently offlineFuffla From Australia, joined Feb 2004, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6348 times:

Would HA ever consider BNE? There are currently no HNL servies and all passengers have to go QF via SYD. It could compete with QF pacific services, a one-stop USA service from BNE.

User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1724 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6219 times:

ANZ flights from AKL to HNL, and VV are running at 4x per week at the moment which is good for them , tho at times through out the year this does drop to 3 per week , the route is flown with 763 aircraft which have just had a mini makeover .


CZ 787 to AKL can't wait.
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4466 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6117 times:

I recently flew CO from EWR-HNL. The flight was on a 767-400 and was full both ways. I agree that for the most part East coasters travel to the Carribean but that doesn't mean a market for NYC, BOS etc to HNL doesn't exist.


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6525 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6107 times:

Quoting CX747 (Reply 10):
recently flew CO from EWR-HNL. The flight was on a 767-400 and was full both ways. I agree that for the most part East coasters travel to the Carribean but that doesn't mean a market for NYC, BOS etc to HNL doesn't exist.

If that is true, why do you think AA,UA,DL,US, and NW are not flying it?


User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4466 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6094 times:

There could be multiple reasons why those airlines are not flying the route. Obviously, there could not be enough traffic to support all of them. At EWR, there is enough traffic to support a daily 767-400 on the EWR-HNL route. The 767-400 flight is the only non-stop flight but not the only flight to HNL.

The -HNL routes might not be that great of money makers. It could be that the airlines are focusing on other routes where the profit margins are higher. That doesn't mean there isn't demand for a non-stop route from pax, it just means that there isn't as much of a demand as there is for another route.

My third and last point is the fact that people who run airlines make mistakes. If they were perfect then we would still have the great Pan Am, Braniff and Eastern flying the friendly skies. Airline CEO's are major bean counters and sometimes when all you look at is data printouts, your decisions can be pretty far off the mark.



"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6525 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6057 times:

Quoting CX747 (Reply 12):
Airline CEO's are major bean counters and sometimes when all you look at is data printouts, your decisions can be pretty far off the mark.

Describe a "bean counter" and how you are so sure that airline CEO's fall into that category. Are you suggesting they should not look at financial data for a proposed new route? What criteria would you look at, that you feel they are not looking at?


User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3669 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5910 times:
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Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 6):
I don't think there is that much demand for another East Coast to Hawaii flight.

The demand is there. Hawaii probably has the best tourism statistics in the world and they are published every month, with an annual report published every year. From the New England area (Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island) and Mid-Atlantic (New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania) we have the following numbers for visitors arriving by air:

2004 (latest annual report)
393,982 (New England and Mid-Atlantic MMAs)
1,756,940 (total Domestic U.S. East MMA)
22.4% of Domestic U.S. East MMA

2005 (preliminary)
417,444

2006 (preliminary)
196,025 (Jan-Jun)

http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/info/visitor-stats

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 11):
If that is true, why do you think AA,UA,DL,US, and NW are not flying it?

AA, UA, DL, and NW all route those pax through their hubs or West Coast cities since they don't have hubs in the NYC/BOS area. Only CO does and they are routing pax from that area through EWR. US never had a presence in Hawaii until HP started flying here and they would route pax through PHX.


User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4466 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5888 times:

That does seem to be where the majority of the traffice heads.


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineETA Unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5847 times:

HA used to serve Fukuoka and Sydney (1st time around via Pago Pago)- they sold both these route authorities to Northwest. HA also flew to various Pacific Island destinations with the DC8's- these services were unprofitable and terminated.

The Air New Zealand AKL-HNL 763 service is not doing too well (outside school holiday time) and rumored to soon be replaced with an A320 service via an intermediate stop (Apia,Nadi or Tonga).


User currently offlineN174UA From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5758 times:

Quoting CX747 (Reply 1):
I agree, it seems odd that Hawaiian or Aloha doesn't serve Japan. I can understand why they don't serve Europe, but Asia is a mystery.



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
Hawaiian has received various rights over the years to fly to Narita but was unable to secure the appropriate slots.

It's not profitable for them to do so. Wasn't then, isn't now. That's the answer.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 11):
If that is true, why do you think AA,UA,DL,US, and NW are not flying it?

UA used to operate BOS-HNL nonstop with a DC-8 years ago. Granted, there were times it had to stop at SFO or LAX for fuel, but it did operate nonstop on several occaisions. This was in the 60's and early '70's.

Quoting CX747 (Reply 12):
Airline CEO's are major bean counters and sometimes when all you look at is data printouts, your decisions can be pretty far off the mark.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Airline CEO's are leaders who essentially herd cats full time, and rely on financial analysts to do cost/benefit analysis on existing routes and forecast revenues for possible expansion.


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4865 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5634 times:

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
HA applied for routes to China, and will again. Aloha will too I think. Both have been rumoured to try HNL-New Zealand also at various times.



Quoting 777fan (Reply 4):

I'm also not sure how a HNL-AKL route would do; I believe Air New Zealand just cut their number of weekly flights down due to reduced demand.



Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 9):
ANZ flights from AKL to HNL, and VV are running at 4x per week at the moment which is good for them , tho at times through out the year this does drop to 3 per week , the route is flown with 763 aircraft which have just had a mini makeover .



Quoting ETA Unknown (Reply 16):
The Air New Zealand AKL-HNL 763 service is not doing too well (outside school holiday time) and rumored to soon be replaced with an A320 service via an intermediate stop (Apia,Nadi or Tonga).

The main problem with the AKL-HNL route is that it is a relatively long flight (9 hours) for New Zealanders to go visit a tropical island when there are so many other tropical islands that are only 3-4 hours flight time away (Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, Rarotonga, Vanuatu, French Polynesia etc) that are also much cheaper to stay at. As Hawaii is a pretty damn nice place to live and many people live there purely for the lifestyle there is also not much demand from Hawaiians to fly to New Zealand (which is also a lifestyle country albeit colder than Hawaii). The upgraded 763 aircraft should help this route out somewhat by making it more pleasant for the passengers, but I too see it changing to an A320 service via the Islands... most likely APW in Samoa. This service could actually be a daily service to HNL which may lead to increased useage whilst being more economic for NZ.  Smile



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineSoonerLT From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5596 times:

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 3):
I think the more important question is why doesn't HA serve the East Coast or Midwest?

Is it also possible that the investment in long range aircraft wouldn't be worth it? I'm thinking they'd have to buy a brand new aircraft type such as a 777 (don't think the 767s they already have could make the trip to the East coast could they?), training new mx and crew to work on them, as well as on-station service for each destination. This would be a big investment for what...maybe 7-8 new aircraft to cover routes to places like EWR, ATL, ORD, or DFW (figuring 2 aircraft per destination, 1x a day flights)?

Of course, as already stated, airlines like DL, AA, UA, and CO already serve HNL from the Midwest and East Coast. I don't think the demand for that level of capacity would be there, although that could bring down fares and then you allow ever Joe and his family who ever wanted to go to Hawaii to finally do it, increasing demand through an increase in supply. That seems antithetical to economic law though  Smile


User currently offlineHawaiian717 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3208 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5517 times:

Quoting SoonerLT (Reply 19):
don't think the 767s they already have could make the trip to the East coast could they?

Yes they can. The only ones that can't are the four ex-DL non-ER 767-300s coming online later this year. The current 767-300ERs could do it. Delta has used their 767-300ERs on the ATL-HNL flight in the past.


User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2371 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5468 times:

Quoting SoonerLT (Reply 19):
This would be a big investment for what...maybe 7-8 new aircraft to cover routes to places like EWR, ATL, ORD, or DFW (figuring 2 aircraft per destination, 1x a day flights)?

Well I wouldn't expect them to fly any of those routes since they are all served. Current cities without non-stop service include JFK, BOS, YYZ, DTW...

Also, each route would require only one aircraft, not 2. DL and CO use only one aircraft for their daily roundtrips from ATL and EWR.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineStr8fromthe808 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 43 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5379 times:

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 21):
Well I wouldn't expect them to fly any of those routes since they are all served. Current cities without non-stop service include JFK, BOS, YYZ, DTW...

back when i was in college the marketing director from HA came to speak in one of our marketing classes...she had mentioned that JFK was almost certain until 9/11 happened....



it is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness...chinese proverb
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2572 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5356 times:

Quoting Str8fromthe808 (Reply 22):
back when i was in college the marketing director from HA came to speak in one of our marketing classes

This is the same woman who told those of us who work for HA that advertising on the mainland was too expensive, so we should talk up the airline with our mainland friends. Or in other words, use the "coconut wireless" to save the company money.   

When anyone challenged her, her only response was "But I have a degree in marketing, and you don't."

And that is why people have hardly heard of Hawaiian, even at places we go to.

I love this company, and the people who work here. However it does need to step into the 21st century and run like a real airline.

HAL

[Edited 2006-08-07 02:53:31]


One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5326 times:

HA could probably get authority to some destinations in Asia like NGO, KIX, FUK, (NW dropped it), TPE and MNL. But I doubt they will be that profitable. Japan is all about package tours at dirt cheap prices. JTB has a package from NGO on CO staying on Waikiki for 5 days right now for around than $800. That is hotel, airfare and probably some kind of amentities (passes for public transport, coupons for some restaurant...). But if you buy only airfare from NGO to HNL, it will cost you $800 or more. Airlines just don't make a lot of cash on the leisure routes. But that does not mean HA couldn't do the routes. Unfortunately NRT is now out for them until new slots open in 2008, but most of those will go to Middle Eastern, Japanese and major international carriers offering mainline routes.

Luckily there are enough second and third generation Japanese, Chinese and Filipinos living in Hawaii that are still close to relatives in their "old country" to make the trips a little more worth while. They pay for airfare and not for the package.

Here at NGO CO and JL offer flight to HNL and they are doing well. If we had another carrier, someone would have to pull out.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
25 ZK-NBT : An HA service to AKL would be able to connect to the mainland which I think would be good offering a few more connections than NZ do with UA. I was fl
26 Ha763 : So that's why NZ was in HNL during the day. I thought their flight was delayed.
27 Flamedude707 : HA has great service. I flew them on SJC-HNL-KONA in December and it was a treat. The crew was friendly and I actually got free lunch. Forgot if it w
28 Anthsaun : Hawaiian Airlines should try to serve MEX twice a week. Going to LAX or SFO is too much for Mexican travelers.
29 Socal : Hawaiian's main routes are west coast, I think they do fine as they are doing. If Hawaiian expands, I think they will see alot of problems. I think Ha
30 Centrair : Maybe if HA had the planes they could try to connect Asia to South America via Hawaii. You know Japanese business man doing some trade in South Americ
31 Zkpilot : compared to 763 sure... compared to 737 the A320 carries more.
32 Markabcan : I always thought that ANC would be an interesting and profitable route for a Hawaiian carrier
33 Aloha73G : Hawaiian flies to ANC...they are charters, but they've been doing it for years. -Aloha!
34 777fan : IIRC, so does NW (seasonally). I don't see why HA couldn't continue on its theme of vacation-related charters from select mainland cities. Its best c
35 Bobnwa : Do you have numbers to justify service from MEX to Hawaii twice a week. The travel between these points would appear to be minimal.
36 DC10Forever : I work a lot with Japanese companies and business man and I have never seen a Japanese business man going out on vacation ... But would be nice to se
37 777fan : I'm not sure there'd be much of a demand to justify nonstops to Mexico and/or South America. According to the Circle Mapper, HNL-GRU runs about 8,100
38 AlanCHS : Because Government Leaders in small island nations demand they leave?
39 HALFA : Actually, HNL-MEX flights have been very seriously looked at here as there is a growing population of Mexicans here in Hawaii and especially in Maui.
40 MotorHussy : How about MEL and/or AKL to HNL via PPG? Regards MH
41 Post contains images HALFA : Sounds good to me although we have already tried AKL-PPG-HNL with the DC-8's without much success. Perhaps the 767 would be better suited for this ro
42 MotorHussy : Wow, brilliant! Using whose metal do you know? The containerised freight capacity on the 736 is preferable over that of the "loose" 738. Regards MH
43 KL808 : This could be, but PR serves this market daily. Also the US and Philippines don't have an agreement with regards to open skies. I believe there's a l
44 Anthsaun : I used to live in the Laie back in the 80's and it was usual to see Mexican tourists down there every day. Now I live in Mexico City and one of the t
45 Alohajock : I would love to see HA explore flights to Mexico. We share a similar climate, so we are well adjusted to seasons and dress requirements. Maybe HA can
46 B6FA4ever : since people are speaking of Mexico...i remember a long time ago (probly around late 80's/early 90's) seeing a DC-10 Mexicana (the kine w/ gold cheatl
47 Ha763 : It's supposed to be a codeshare using Polynesian Blue planes. PR only flies HNL-MNL 3x weekly, Tues, Thurs, Sat. More pax probably go through NRT on
48 Bobnwa : I would bet that more pax fly on NW between HNL-MNL than on JAL.
49 EmSeeEye : From a domestic standpoint what would be the best destinations for HA?
50 BeachBoy : Probably DEN with a F9 codeshare, JFK with a B6 codeshare, or ATL with a FL codeshare.
51 HAL : From what I understand, it is supposed to be our (HA) planes serving the route. HAL
52 HAL : Personally I've always thought it should be New York. With 13 million people in the NYC metro area and currently only one nonstop flight a day (CO ou
53 HALFA : If everything I have been hearing is true, the Apia flights will be utilized with HA 767's and not with Poly'Blue's planes, but the arrival in Apia b
54 Post contains links HAL : A link about the codeshare is here: http://pidp.eastwestcenter.org/pireport/2006/June/06-27-11.htm Among other things it says: Polynesia’s chief exe
55 Ha763 : HAL and HALFA, thanks for the correction. I believe it was supposed to be originally on Polynesian aircraft.
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