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The Future Of Origin Pacific  
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24631 posts, RR: 86
Posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4605 times:
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I am interested in this small airline, which seems to have had a fairly turbulent history (for its size), but mostly before I came back to NZ:

http://www.originpacific.co.nz/

So - if anyone wants to share - I would be interested in any opinions about it, to what extent it is considered viable and it's possible future.

Whether anyone thinks it has a place within the NZ - domestic or regional - airline structure.

Would it be good to see an alternate airline operating successfully in NZ? Would Air NZ simply buy it out, if it is ever successful, to get rid of the competition?

I have no real opinions on the airline one way or the other - yet.

 Smile

cheers

mariner


aeternum nauta
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAlaskaqantas From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 902 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4581 times:

I have flown it once, and it was nothing special or anything.

My aunt or Uncle won't fly with them, she says just to stick with Air NZ. I don't see them booming... I mean while NZ is flying around some 737's they are still flying jetstreams with a one plane maxing 29 people.

I don't have a real problem with them, I just don't see them doing better then air NZ, so personally I'll just stick with NZ.
~Cheers-
~~Kyle H.
The Airline it self isn't that bad... its just not the best Wink



to some people the sky is the limit, to aviation enthusiasts, its home!
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24631 posts, RR: 86
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4521 times:
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Thanks for that input.

I wonder why you Aunt and Uncle won't fly with them? Sticking to what they know (Air NZ) perhaps or maybe they just don't trust them. Perceptions of safety can be a problem for very small airlines.

The points about the small aircraft are valid, but it would appear to be a matter of funding for them - they do seem to be under-capitalized.

I can see I'm going to have to do some reserach in the newspaper archives if I want to learn anything about their history.

I think I read that Air NZ tried to drive them off at least one route, so I'll start there.

From a commerical viewpoint, it could be the name is a problem - it doesn't give them much of a sense of place.

Maybe if they were Tasman Pacific or Kiwi Pacific they might have better recognition? Then again, "Freedom Air" doens't give any real sense of place, and I gather they did okay.

Interesting little airline, though - is survival possible? I'll dig around. And I'll be back.

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2006-08-05 13:44:56]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1515 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4509 times:

I have flown them once and was in their j31 i think it was man it was squashed i was in the window seat and i could not sit comfortably in it i am 6ft but my neck was sore as i could not sit straight up in the window seat on the left hand side ..thankfully it was only a 25 min flight since then i have stuck with air nz also ...


"Pride of the pacific"
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24631 posts, RR: 86
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4497 times:
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Quoting Nzrich (Reply 3):
man it was squashed

That got my interest. I don't know much about the Jetstreams - some are in ervice with American regional airlines, but I don;t think I;ve flown on one.

So I looked around - and you're right - the J31's are wee:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jorge Albanese



The bigger J41 looks a tad more comfortable - maybe just because it looks longer - but curiously, not so many were sold:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Aaron Lupton - WorldAirlineImages



I had not thought about customer resistance to the aircraft, but it could be important to the fortunes of this airline.

Then again, if I am right about their funding issues, I guess it is all they can afford.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3432 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4490 times:
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I made use of them on 2 occasions on their ATR's, between CHC and ZQN. Unfortunately the service was mediocre and I now make use of QF and NZ when in New Zealand.


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24631 posts, RR: 86
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4437 times:
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I'm still working on the history and structure, but in the meantime, here's a fun read - some very different opinions, from 2003 to 2006:

http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/origin.htm

From 2003:

"I had an absolute horrific experience with them recently."

To 2006:

"I need to extol the wonderful service I continue to receive from Origin Pacific."

You really have to hope they are getting better.  Smile

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePlanemanofnz From New Zealand, joined Sep 2005, 1653 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4430 times:

Why did they dispose of the ATR72's? Would there be any chance of them getting bigger aircraft? Maybe a Dash-8, another ATR or maybe even an Embrarer?

I also don't understand why the partnership with QF had to go down the drain. I think QF would be able to make alot more money domestically within NZ if it could fly to regional points.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24631 posts, RR: 86
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4425 times:
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A picture is starting to build, but it's a complex one. I need to find out about their close brush with bankruptcy, and what is called "their resurrection":

However, puzzles keep coming up. In May they announced a new route from Tauranga to Christchurch, to begin in June 2006.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/organisati...ory.cfm?o_id=145&ObjectID=10383051

But here we are in August 2006, and I don't see the route on the map - I don't even see Tauranga on the route map.

Other stuff seems to involve Air New Zealand behaving like a 600 pound gorilla:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/organisati...ory.cfm?o_id=145&ObjectID=10386774

So whoever runs Origin, they appear to be scrappy. They started a route - Hamilton to Christchurch - and then Air NZ announced the same route. Origin went to the Commerce Commission, but - surprise, surprise - the Commission found in favor of Air NZ:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/organisati...ory.cfm?o_id=145&objectid=10375391

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24631 posts, RR: 86
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4409 times:
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Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 7):
Why did they dispose of the ATR72's? Would there be any chance of them getting bigger aircraft? Maybe a Dash-8, another ATR or maybe even an Embrarer?

I don't know. I'm the novice here, I didn't know they had ATR 72's. I shall attempt to find out.

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 7):
I also don't understand why the partnership with QF had to go down the drain. I think QF would be able to make alot more money domestically within NZ if it could fly to regional points.

Once again, I am the novice here. I didn't know they had a partnership with QF.

First line, first post:

Quoting Mariner (Thread starter):
which seems to have had a fairly turbulent history (for its size), but mostly before I came back to NZ:

Maybe the QF deal went in the brush with bk? It is stuff like this that interests me.

I shall go to trusty Google, but given NZ's ambivalent relationship with the Internet, it may not be easy.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMotorHussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3038 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4399 times:

Origin Pacific Airways (QO) was launched and founded in 1997 as a charter air service in NSN by Robert Inglis, the founder of Air Nelson in 1979 which was sold to NZ and makes up an important part of their Link line.

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 7):
Why did they dispose of the ATR72's? Would there be any chance of them getting bigger aircraft? Maybe a Dash-8, another ATR or maybe even an Embrarer?

The ATR72's were brought on board to support the increased passenger numbers brought about by the QF codeshare - becoming surplus to requirement when this codeshare was ceased.

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 7):
I also don't understand why the partnership with QF had to go down the drain. I think QF would be able to make alot more money domestically within NZ if it could fly to regional points.

QF ceased this codeshare partnership without any indication they were considering it and without any previous complaints to how the relationship was working. The contract renewal came about and QF chose not to proceed with it; this was devastating for QO.

There was much speculation at the time about behind closed doors agreements between NZ and QF, "You stay out of our regional patch and we'll stay out of yours!". Needless to say, this nearly bankrupted this country's only truly New Zealand owned and operated airline. QO has been clawing back since; wary of over-extending and partnerships.

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 5):
I made use of them on 2 occasions on their ATR's, between CHC and ZQN.

QO no longer fly CHC-ZQN and neither do they now operate ATR's.

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 5):
Unfortunately the service was mediocre and I now make use of QF and NZ when in New Zealand.

I've flown this leg a few times recently with NZ ATR's - they were mediocre too. It's a regional leg - a cup of tea and a biscuit, oops mind your head - what do you expect? But yes, NZ and QF operate 733's on this leg too.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):
Maybe if they were Tasman Pacific or Kiwi Pacific they might have better recognition?

Tasman Pacific was the name of the parent company for the doomed Qantas franchise into New Zealand. Kiwi Pacific has the heritage of Kiwi Air, the doomed airline brought about by Euan Wilson who later served time for fraud.

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 3):
I have flown them once and was in their j31 i think it was man it was squashed

Yeah the J31's (and J41's) are squashed because of the fuselage curve but you can stand up in them unlike the Metroliner and they do have a loo should the need arise unlike the EMB or Metroliner. They're comparable to NZ's Beechcraft (also wee). The J41's have one cabin staff too.

Quoting Mariner (Thread starter):
Would Air NZ simply buy it out, if it is ever successful, to get rid of the competition?

They did with Air Nelson and thought they'd seen the last of Robert Inglis as a thorn in their side which is why, many believe, that they'd rather see the total demise of QO.


Regards
MH



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24631 posts, RR: 86
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4390 times:
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Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 10):
Origin Pacific Airways (QO) was launched and founded in 1997 as a charter air service in NSN by Robert Inglis, the founder of Air Nelson in 1979 which was sold to NZ and makes up an important part of their Link line.

That's a terrific post, just the sort of stuff I am looking for. Thank you.

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 10):
There was much speculation at the time about behind closed doors agreements between NZ and QF, "You stay out of our regional patch and we'll stay out of yours!".

Since I am the novice, how much faith would you put in that speculation?

When I lived in NZ back in the 60's, there was no competition, Air NZ and Qantas ruled the Tasman and NAC ruled NZ domestic (with flurries from Mt. Cook and a couple of very minors). I am interested to see how the big boys are reacting to the freer market.

I am also not sure that I think the amalgamation of Air NZ and NAC was the best thing for NZ, but I'm still working on that.

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 10):
They did with Air Nelson and thought they'd seen the last of Robert Inglis as a thorn in their side which is why, many believe, that they'd rather see the total demise of QO.

I have a of of sympathy for people who are thorns in the sides of huge corporations. I am not keen on monopolies.

That's given me a lot to work with. Again, thanks.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 6900 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4337 times:

I know from bird/animal keepers (parrots/dogs/cats etc) from around New Zealand that they use QO as live couriers. The aircraft are well suited to that and the rates are competitive - not to mention the animals are treated very well indeed from some of the reports I have read. I'm not sure they'll last on just that though, although their cargo operation seems to be going better than their pax operation. It's the fare structures I think make them less competitive on that front.

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24631 posts, RR: 86
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4330 times:
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Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 12):
although their cargo operation seems to be going better than their pax operation.

They might question you about that, but perhaps not much.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/location/s...ory.cfm?l_id=135&objectid=10006963

So, in review, they lose a code share (pax) arrangement with Qantas, but they gain a (cargo) relationship with JetConnect:

"Origin made changes last year when it entered an arrangement with Qantas' New Zealand freight arm, Jet Connect."

But - I thought JetConnect was more than just the "NZ freight arm" of Qantas?

This does seem to be more to this than meets the eye.

 confused 

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAxio From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4266 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
But here we are in August 2006, and I don't see the route on the map - I don't even see Tauranga on the route map

According to their schedule (http://www.originpacific.co.nz/TravelInfo/Timetables.aspx) weekdays between Tauranga and CHC commenced at the end of June, and while TRG doesn't appear on their route map there are fares for sale on the front page.



Time for a new viewing deck at AKL!
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3432 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4228 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 10):
QO no longer fly CHC-ZQN and neither do they now operate ATR's.

I am aware of the fact. However, thanks for reminding me of something that I already knew.

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 10):
I've flown this leg a few times recently with NZ ATR's - they were mediocre too. It's a regional leg - a cup of tea and a biscuit, oops mind your head - what do you expect? But yes, NZ and QF operate 733's on this leg too.

I flew NZ and QF on 737's and found them much more comfortable than the ATR's - that is my personal taste and I would appreciate it if you could respect that. I don't give a damn about tea and biscuits, especially on a route like ZQN-CHC. However the service levels, across the board from check-in to baggage collection, at QO left a lot to be desired.


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineNoelg From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4193 times:

I have flown domestically on Origin Pacific from AKL-NSN. I have also flown domestically on NZ Link and Vincent Aviation (op for NZ Link).

I found Origin Pacific to be a good airline, in the same league as NZ Link domestically. You can't really get more than good service, a cup of coffee and a sweet before landing which all the domestic operators offer.

The Jetstream 41 was nice, not cramped at all, and all the staff from check in to baggage claim were very friendly, giving a real sense of it being a friendly airline.

I have done a trip report on Origin as well as my NZ Link flights, search the trip reports forum for my username if you want to read (don't want to hijack the thread!).

Unfortunately I see NZ pushing QO out of the regional market in New Zealand, they are acting a bit heavy handed in my opinion by trying to force QO out of certain markets, and I do see QO either getting bought by NZ or pushed out completely! They were pretty poor financially last year I seem to recall, but I hope they can survive!


User currently offlineMotorHussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3038 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4176 times:

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 15):
I am aware of the fact. However, thanks for reminding me of something that I already knew.

Well bravo, good on you. However you gave no indication of such in your earlier post, but it's good to know that you need no reminding of something you already know now that I know that you know it too, know what I mean?

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 15):
I flew NZ and QF on 737's and found them much more comfortable than the ATR's - that is my personal taste and I would appreciate it if you could respect that.

LOL, from where did you get the impression that I was somehow disrespecting you?

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 15):
I don't give a damn about tea and biscuits, especially on a route like ZQN-CHC.

I quite like a cup of tea and a biscuit in the afternoon on a flight to beautiful ZQN, helps pass the time too.

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 15):
However the service levels, across the board from check-in to baggage collection, at QO left a lot to be desired.

Back in the time you're referring to, QO would have been using QF facilities and staff in ZQN for check-in as well as ZQN's baggage collection. The same would have applied for CHC baggage collection. What was it about QO's CHC check-in that left so much to be desired?

I always find that if you treat people with respect, dignity and a sense of humour, you're more inclined to get the same in return.

Regards
MH



come visit the south pacific
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 11846 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4137 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 7):
Why did they dispose of the ATR72's? Would there be any chance of them getting bigger aircraft? Maybe a Dash-8, another ATR or maybe even an Embrarer?

QF ended their code-share so they got rid of the 2x ATRs. NZ got one in half QO/NZ colours to expand while they waited for an ATR to arrive from France.

QO were loosing money badly, so they reduced their fleet and services. QO would have gone under if it wasn't for NZ and Mike Pero jumping in and helping. QO owed NZ money for MX work and NZ and QO worked out a way for QO to pay NZ back as well as a few other companys like WLG.

I was going to fly on QO from WLG-AKL via NSN in last March but my WLG-NSN flight got cancelled at the last moment due to a problem with the J31 on its previous flight. After me explaining to the WLG agents my rights under the Consumers Guarantees Act they booked me on a QF flight at their expense. QO were just going to leave me high and dry at WLG and let me find my way to AKL. All the QO staff at WLG were excellent except for their team leader who was the rudest airline employee I've ever come across.


User currently offlineAxio From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4125 times:

It seems to me that QO are trying to fill a market niche of low-frequency point-to-point connections. TRG/CHC is an example of this.

Unfortunately AirNZ has been responsive when the markets that QO identifies are large enough to fall under its radar (HLZ/CHC, HLZ/NSN, HLZ/PMR).

Without a bigger partner to provide feeder traffic, QO seems destined to a cycle of: establishing a niche route; growing it if possible; having AirNZ start flying it.

I do also feel that QO are wasting their time in some markets. One close to home is AKL/PMR which they fly once each weekday, at times that oppose the general flow of traffic (PMR->AKL am, AKL->PMR pm).

ax



Time for a new viewing deck at AKL!
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24631 posts, RR: 86
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4106 times:
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Quoting Axio (Reply 19):
Without a bigger partner to provide feeder traffic, QO seems destined to a cycle of: establishing a niche route; growing it if possible; having AirNZ start flying it.

So it would seem that it is impossible for a small regional airline to survive in New Zealand, because Big Brother will just stomp on it, drive it out of business, assimilate it, whatever?

That would be sad. Really sad.

Perhaps the amalgamation of Air NZ and NAC was not the best idea for New Zealand. I've never been fond of monopolies - they get monopolistic.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2634 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4090 times:

Origin used to fly the CHC-WLG sector on behalf of JetConnect, using Dash 8-300s before the ATRs arrived. If you look on the database they operated the Dash 8-100 too at some point.

Once the issues surrounding the QF/NZ tie-up are finally settled, I think you'll see one of two things. If the tie-up is denied, JetConnect will probably re-establish its commercial relationship with Origin for pax oncarriage, but I suspect Origin will be far more cautious this time. If the tie-up is allowed, we will probably see Virgin on domestic New Zealand routes and I could see a linkup between Origin and them, like Virgin has with REX in Australia.

It would be interesting to see what happened to JetConnect's pax numbers when the Origin relationship ended. Seems such a shame. I think with a little more capital, the airline has a real chance of doing well, but for it to be aserious long-term prospect it will need a larger partner like QF or DJ.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 11846 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4082 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

QO now have space on QFs nightly freight AKL-CHC B763 service

User currently offlineZKEYE From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 241 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3972 times:

I think the future looks pretty grim for them. This mornings Christchurch Press has a front page article saying that they are casting around for a cash injection of $3 million. The article states that they have been unsuccessful thus far.


Bring out the gimp
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24631 posts, RR: 86
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3965 times:
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Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 23):
I think the future looks pretty grim for them.

Here's another version of the same story:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3758648a13,00.html

But this line suggests things are especially grim.

"It is understood a decision on whether to continue trading is imminent."

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2006-08-09 01:52:37]


aeternum nauta
25 Post contains images Axio : Here's wondering if he flew AirNZ...
26 MotorHussy : (LOL), well he's a part owner in that airline too. MH
27 1Des1 : I think that $3 Million is to fund additions to the fleet and new routes, Mike Pero just recently stood down from the board stating QO is "Now a viab
28 Post contains images 1Des1 : Wouldn't imagine he would especially with various claims of anti competitive behaviour before the commerce commission regarding NZ. It does seem some
29 MotorHussy : With more capital and decent sized aircraft, they would become more than a niche market player (in New Zealand regional terms). NZ's watching! MH
30 Aerohottie : Oh yes they are, very closely.... there wouldn't be much about QO the NZ don't know
31 Post contains links Mariner : Sad news - they've shut down ops: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10395615 I guess the title of this thread has been answe
32 1Des1 : Only passenger OP's they are still going to be running cargo operations. From TVNZ.co.nz "The Nelson based regional airline Origin Pacific has announ
33 Axio : Yep, saw it on the news this morning. Perhaps we shall all have to see if AirNZ fares subtly increase on routes where there was competition, and then
34 Mariner : It is tricky. Air NZ can - and I believe did - say they were just being competitive when they started the notorious Hamilton-Christchurch route. But
35 Post contains links Axio : Apparently there's more... http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3761620a10,00.html It seems Origin didn't exactly ask AirNZ nicely before dumping its p
36 Post contains links Mariner : Tough to let 'em go without a few words. My sympathies are with the bloke who calls it a sad day in New Zealand aviation history: http://www.geekzone.
37 777ER : NZ was found not guilty on this charge by the Commerce Commission
38 Nzstevenc : What kind of niche player do you actually see QO becoming? Short hops out of Nelson and Blenheim aren't exactly a niche when you're competing with NZ
39 Nzrich : Ok well Air NZ helped origin when it nearly went under last time ..It cancelled 60% of Origins debt to Air NZ and allowed the remaining 40% to be pai
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