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DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK  
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Posted (8 years 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6624 times:

Beginning 06SEP DL mainline will return to ICT and CAK with a daily M88. ICT was a DL station up until the late 90's. CAK has always been a Comair station, but over time receiving off/on mainline service


It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeecee8 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 38 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6603 times:

This is a normal practice for DL. When loads or seasonal needs dictate larger equipment/capacity DL will schedule mainline equipment into these markets, we have seen this in other cities as well, like GPT and MYR just to name a few. It's a good business practice and works well for DL. When the loads or seasonal need changes, the aircraft will be redeployed accordingly.

User currently offlineDelta787 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6580 times:

Its always nice to see more destinations receive mainline service on Delta.


Fly Delta!
User currently offlineAvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 6399 times:

The ICT subsidy ended for FL.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/business/15203105.htm

I remember when AA and DL were protesting the subsidies DL had offered mainline aircraft if ICT dropped the subsidies.

I'm not sure about ICT, but CAK is an FL stronghold. This could be the new restructured DL going against FL.

Then again, if a community suffering with RJ's want mainline aircraft to return they should lure a LCC. On the domestic front, the legacies will follow their lead.


User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6124 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6305 times:

Great new for CAK!

ASLAX



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineKnope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2895 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6175 times:

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 3):
The ICT subsidy ended for FL.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/bus...5.htm

The City of Wichita ended their subsidy, but it appears that Sedgewick County has instead started floating money to AirTran. The key difference is that the city gets federal funding for the airport. The county is unrelated to the airport. So when the city threw money AirTran's way, Delta pleaded to the feds that it was unfair and that federal money should be withheld. Delta still probably finds it unfair, but there is no leverage over the county.


User currently offlineJetpixx From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 851 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6063 times:

I am so glad to hear this upgrade at CAK...I am a devout SkyMiles guy and I fly CO, DL and NW all the time to NE Ohio. I prefer flying into CAK, but lately have been flying to CLE because I am tired of flying CRJ, CR7 or SF3 on DL and NW...a mainline addition from ATL is a lot more comfortable than flying on a CRJ for two hours.

I know, I know...I could fly FL...but I don't think so.


User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5989 times:

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 3):
Then again, if a community suffering with RJ's want mainline aircraft to return they should lure a LCC. On the domestic front, the legacies will follow their lead.

But how many legacies have, because of LCC's, brought mainline into BGR, XNA, ABE, MDT, ACY, JAC, etc? Oh, none, because the markets don't warrant the mainline service year round. You put the right size airplane that demands the service.

In this case, I don't see why DL returns mainline. The city is still giving money to FL, just via Sedgwick County. Wouldn't that be similar to money-laundering? But in this case, its apparently legal? Airtran still gets the, what was it, $2 million a year, which comps its costs of running the station completely. So any passenger they carry, whether 1 or 117, is a bonus for them. Yea, thats not still discrimination. sarcastic 

Well, I can see DL bringing MD-88 service to try and take any passengers they can, but since FL's operation is comped by the city.....oh, "Sedgwick County," then what is the point?

I do enjoy seeing DL send flights into markets like BMI that ask them not to, as they will be competing with FL, and DL basically says, "Well, you can't say no, so up yours."


Good to see CAK getting mainline. The city is certainly growing and could use it.



OttoPylit


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5928 times:

Quoting Jetpixx (Reply 6):
I am so glad to hear this upgrade at CAK...I am a devout SkyMiles guy and I fly CO, DL and NW all the time to NE Ohio. I prefer flying into CAK, but lately have been flying to CLE because I am tired of flying CRJ, CR7 or SF3 on DL and NW...a mainline addition from ATL is a lot more comfortable than flying on a CRJ for two hours.

Don't get too used to it. I wouldn't be surprised if DL yanks this mainline flight by next summer. These mainline additions have little to do with providing more seats to customers, but rather DL's attempts to inflict damage on Airtran.

DL has a long history of flinging capacity at Airtran routes in the hope of knocking Airtran off. The strategy used to work well when Airtran was weak and DL was strong. But now that the playing field is more level, the strategy hasn't worked so well. Not to mention that many communities have gotten smart and realized that it is well worth it to subsidize LCC's when needed, if it means having reasonable air fares and decent service.


User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2001 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5889 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 8):
Don't get too used to it. I wouldn't be surprised if DL yanks this mainline flight by next summer. These mainline additions have little to do with providing more seats to customers, but rather DL's attempts to inflict damage on Airtran

If you look in the system, that same flight is back to an E170 after September. Doesn't make sense to me to upgrade it to a M88 on the slowest travel month and then downgrade it after that. Only reasoning would be is if Republic doesn't have enough E170s to fly the route. I wouldn't doubt they fly more E170s except for the overnights into CAK, would compete well with FL 717s IMO. I'm glad to see that CAK is still doing well, wonder if DL is thinking of adding JFK?!?


User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5734 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 8):
These mainline additions have little to do with providing more seats to customers, but rather DL's attempts to inflict damage on Airtran

And usually works pretty darn well.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 8):
But now that the playing field is more level, the strategy hasn't worked so well.

I would say that its more along the lines of Airtran willing to influence cities to give up precious money in order for "lower" fares, which usually end up being not much lower. Has happened in most of FL's cities, even your precious PNS.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 8):
Not to mention that many communities have gotten smart and realized that it is well worth it to subsidize LCC's when needed, if it means having reasonable air fares and decent service.

If they want "reasonable air fares and decent service", then why are they considering Airtran? Wouldn't it be wise for these communities to be knocking down the door of WN or F9 or B6? FL is closer to the bottom run of LCC's in about every category.

Whats your beef? DL's been adding more and more capacity in PNS for you, and that just can't keep you happy?  Wink



OttoPylit


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6560 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5724 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 7):
Airtran still gets the, what was it, $2 million a year, which comps its costs of running the station completely. So any passenger they carry, whether 1 or 117, is a bonus for them. Yea, thats not still discrimination.

Boo hoo, big old DL thinks FL is getting an unfair advantage. Cry me a river, Delta. DL has bigger things to worry about than what kind of subsidy FL receives in ICT.


User currently offline73G From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 128 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5709 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10):
And usually works pretty darn well

Really? How so? Off the top of my head, I can name a few markets that DL has added mainline service to that haven't affected AirTran one bit. PHF, HOU, and CAK (on and off) just to name a few. CAK and PHF are very strong markets with multiple destinations and HOU does very well also. Not to mention the rest of the markets where they deployed the subfleet of Shuttle 738's with more legroom and leather seats. That didn't seem to matter much either.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10):
Has happened in most of FL's cities

Less than 20% is most?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 7):
"Well, you can't say no, so up yours."

As a Marketing major, I must have missed that classed titled, "Marketing 201, Ways to Drive Business Away". Is that honestly your opinion, and what you think your airline thinks?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 7):
as they will be competing with FL

And competing quite poorly I might add. As a frequent traveller on FL's MCO-BMI-MCO service, I've never seen a load less than 80 pax in either direction on any given day of the week. Conversely, on two different occasions, I have counted less than 10 passengers deplaning the Freedom ERJ from MCO. One day, I watched 6 get off and 7 get on. Competing? With a RJ? Against a mainline jet with IFE and business class? On a 2+ hr flight? Grand strategy.


User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5682 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 11):
Boo hoo, big old DL thinks FL is getting an unfair advantage. Cry me a river, Delta.

No, it was an unfair advantage, one big reason why the FAA told ICT that they faced HUGE fines if they did not fix the situation of using taxpayer money to illegally subsidize one company, without allowing all other companies to also be eligible for the same offer. You should be thankful, had DL not gotten the ICT involved, and had ICT citizens actually found out that their money was being involved in "under the table" dealings with Airtran, then the company would find itself in quite a pickle. I really don't think your CEO would care to be sitting in front of Congress and having to explain himself to a bunch of lawmakers, do you?

But alas, the city has now had to change tactics and is now, if I understand correctly, trying to coerce private companies to supply money through the county in order to subsidize FL. So thats the main reason why DL is putting larger equipment on the route. Its already apparent that there is not enough ridership in ICT to support FL being there alone, so DL might as well take away the rest of the customers. Its well known that given a choice between DL or FL with no price difference, most choose DL.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 11):
DL has bigger things to worry about than what kind of subsidy FL receives in ICT.

Which is.....? Instead of ranting like a pathetic 11 yr old, why not try to construct your post in a way that doesn't make it sound like you are mad that DL got the FAA involved in your company dealing with dirty money. It would lend a little more credibility to youtself and not make you sound as childish. Just FYI.



OttoPylit


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6560 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5670 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 13):
Instead of ranting like a pathetic 11 yr old, why not try to construct your post in a way that doesn't make it sound like you are mad that DL got the FAA involved in your company dealing with dirty money. It would lend a little more credibility to youtself and not make you sound as childish. Just FYI.

I'm really not concerned with establishing my credibility on an internet forum, but I can see that you are, so to each his/her own. I choose to establish my credibility in the workplace.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 13):
Its well known that given a choice between DL or FL with no price difference, most choose DL.

Really? It's all apples and oranges to me...coach service in the U.S is pretty much all the same. At least on FL you know you're always getting on a mainline aircraft. That can't be said about DL.


User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5661 times:

Quoting 73G (Reply 12):
Really? How so? Off the top of my head, I can name a few markets that DL has added mainline service to that haven't affected AirTran one bit.

Then you don't pay very close attention, do you? Let's see, the most recent was the LGA-SRQ flights, then a little bit further back in the later part of the 90's/early 2000's, DL was able to drive FL out of GSO and TOL, and PNS for a short while, before they returned. But then again, the GSO, TOL, PNS, and even more recently, TLH, issues were also compounded by the local governments refusing to keep funneling cash to FL, since subsidies are only eligible to assist new entrants into the market, as compared to keeping them around for 4 or 5 years. Once those local and state governments refused to pay out any more money, FL closed up shops, took their money and ran. Real class act there.

Quoting 73G (Reply 12):
Less than 20% is most?

You think only 20% of FL's routes are subsidized? Listen up closely. ICT, RIC, TOL, GSO, TLH, PNS, GPT, SRQ, IND, and if I'm not mistaken, FNT, BMI, and MLI are all cities that have, at one time or another, given subsidies to FL. I would say thats a bit more than "less than 20%."

Quoting 73G (Reply 12):
As a Marketing major, I must have missed that classed titled, "Marketing 201, Ways to Drive Business Away". Is that honestly your opinion, and what you think your airline thinks?

Apparently so, since BMI asked Delta TO NOT begin service from MCO-BMI, as they were afraid it would drive FL out of the market. Well, whether FL stays in the market is none of Delta's concern, money is. And whats really odd is that airports should be happy when airlines create competition, instead of trying to drive the competition away. So even though BMI asked DL not to fly the service, what did Delta do? Well, Delta flight 6139 leaves MCO every morning at 1000 and arrives in BMI at 1138 and is full every day. In thise case, it was BMI who was trying to drive its customer away.

Quoting 73G (Reply 12):
Conversely, on two different occasions, I have counted less than 10 passengers deplaning the Freedom ERJ from MCO. One day, I watched 6 get off and 7 get on.

Then you aren't paying attention. I only wish I could give you the numbers, even just for this week, for the MCO-BMI flights. Unfortunately, that is against the law and has been noted before for someone giving out direct load numbers. I'll just say this, I can see the actual numbers and you can't, so rest assured that the MCO-BMI flights are leaving 90% full every day on that little ERJ.

Quoting 73G (Reply 12):
Competing? With a RJ? Against a mainline jet with IFE and business class? On a 2+ hr flight? Grand strategy.

As I already stated, it IS working, whether you like it or not. Feel free to PM me, and I'll give you the straight numbers. So, DL's RJ is competing very well, even without any business class or IFE. And don't flatter yourself. FL is no Jetblue. Your "IFE" is nothing more than XM radio. And your "business" class is just a bigger seat. Know why they call it Business Class? Because an LCC can't call the bigger seat First Class. But its nothing more than just a bigger seat, and not very comfortable, either.


Take care,

OttoPylit


User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5657 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 14):
I'm really not concerned with establishing my credibility on an internet forum,

Then why are you posting on here like you know very much?

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 14):
I choose to establish my credibility in the workplace.

Well, if you work for FL, then you have a long way to go before establishing any credibility.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 14):
At least on FL you know you're always getting on a mainline aircraft.

Being that the majority of your "mainline" fleet is only about 20 seats bigger than the next "regional" aircraft, I wouldn't be patting yourself on the back so soon. Hell, your "mainline" aircraft can't even make it halfway across the country before having to stop.

As I said, stop making childish comments if you want me to keep responding. Correcting you is getting tiring.



OttoPylit


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6560 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5648 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
And don't flatter yourself. FL is no Jetblue. Your "IFE" is nothing more than XM radio. And your "business" class is just a bigger seat. Know why they call it Business Class? Because an LCC can't call the bigger seat First Class. But its nothing more than just a bigger seat, and not very comfortable, either.

Even though you may not like FL's Business Class, the flying public does. It was never marketed to be a First Class service, just an upgraded cabin for passengers with a few more amenities. And the XM radio is better than you make it seem, but then again, we're talking about FL here, so it'll always not be good enough. Very sad. And of course FL is no B6...but there's nothing wrong with that.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
so rest assured that the MCO-BMI flights are leaving 90% full every day on that little ERJ.

Wow, 90% full on an RJ?! What a revelation! That's a classic market in the DL route system....right up their alley, actually...mid length flight, no in flight service, sardine can-comfort.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6560 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5640 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 16):
Then why are you posting on here like you know very much?

I certainly don't post on here to prove myself to you, nor do I pretend to know everything about everything.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 16):
Well, if you work for FL, then you have a long way to go before establishing any credibility.

I enjoyed a good laugh at that one, thank you. Really, I don't see how a DL employee can be questioning the credibility of other airline employees....oh wait, just FL, because they don't deserve any recognition, I forgot.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 16):
As I said, stop making childish comments if you want me to keep responding. Correcting you is getting tiring.

And reading your typical, anti-FL jargon is getting tiring as well, but it is what it is.

[Edited 2006-08-07 14:48:53]

User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5633 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 17):
It was never marketed to be a First Class service, just an upgraded cabin for passengers with a few more amenities.

Um, no, it can't be marketed as a First Class because its not a First Class. Its nothing like it. And FL can't make it anything like it. Upgraded cabin with a few more amenities? What "amenities" is this? There are none. Let's see, slightly bigger seat, maybe a free drink, and thats about it. I haven't noticed anything being served differently in Business Class as compared to coach. Please, tell me what other "amenities" are there?

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 17):
And the XM radio is better than you make it seem, but then again, we're talking about FL here, so it'll always not be good enough.

Give me a break, I've got XM radio in my car. If I have the grand IFE that you have in your planes in my car, its not THAT grand. Like I said, unless your XM radio controls are gold-plated, you don't have anything surprising. You can even get XM radio in rental cars now. Trust me, your not impressing anyone.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 17):
And of course FL is no B6...but there's nothing wrong with that.

Yea, I guess Airtran has already settled into being comfortable as a second-rate airline. Good to know, straight from the source.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 17):
Wow, 90% full on an RJ?! What a revelation! That's a classic market in the DL route system....right up their alley, actually...mid length flight, no in flight service, sardine can-comfort.

And with an actual FF program and using a Mesa ERJ, its making money. Great market, that MCO-BMI.


OttoPylit


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5630 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
DL was able to drive FL out of GSO and TOL, and PNS for a short while, before they returned.

DL never drove FL out of PNS. FL arrived in PNS in November 2001 and has continuously served PNS ever since.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 13):
You should be thankful, had DL not gotten the ICT involved, and had ICT citizens actually found out that their money was being involved in "under the table" dealings with Airtran, then the company would find itself in quite a pickle.

The ICT citizens were well aware their tax money was being used to subsidize Airtran. It was all over the newspapers from the beginning.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
But then again, the GSO, TOL, PNS, and even more recently, TLH, issues were also compounded by the local governments refusing to keep funneling cash to FL, since subsidies are only eligible to assist new entrants into the market, as compared to keeping them around for 4 or 5 years.

FL's service to PNS was never subsidized by taxpayers. It was a travel bank put together by private business who were tired of DL's high fares and poor service.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
Listen up closely. ICT, RIC, TOL, GSO, TLH, PNS, GPT, SRQ, IND, and if I'm not mistaken, FNT, BMI, and MLI are all cities that have, at one time or another, given subsidies to FL. I would say thats a bit more than "less than 20%."

IND never gave subsidies. So your list has ten airports on it. Airtran serves 51 airports. So, it is in fact less than 20%.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
Well, Delta flight 6139 leaves MCO every morning at 1000 and arrives in BMI at 1138 and is full every day. In thise case, it was BMI who was trying to drive its customer away.

Full with low-yield leisure travelers that DL can't make a dime off of.

It should tell you something about your airline, when an airport specifically asks you not to come. They know your company is bad for business. Pretty sad that DL has that bad of a reputation.


User currently offline73G From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 128 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5623 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
bit more than "less than 20%."



Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
and if I'm not mistaken

First off, you are. GSO, IND, FNT, and BMI are markets that never offered subsidies to FL. And those are just the ones I'm sure of. Take away those four from the 12 you named and your left with eight current or past markets. Considering FL currently serves 51 markets and 8/51 is 15.6%...well, thats less than 20%.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
DL was able to drive FL out of GSO

Wrong. GSO was always a mainline DL station.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
and PNS for a short while, before they returned

Since FL transferred operations from VPS to PNS, they haven't left once.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
Then you aren't paying attention.

Yeah, I guess I could've miscounted seeing as how BMI is such a big airport and there are multiple flights on the ramp. I physically watched the door open and close and watched the people get on and off. I don't need statistics.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
FL is no Jetblue.

Nope. And neither was Song. But it sure as heck beats an ERJ.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6560 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5615 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 19):
Yea, I guess Airtran has already settled into being comfortable as a second-rate airline. Good to know, straight from the source

If you say so, then it must be true.

I guess what it boils down to is that FL is making money, so you can think of them what you will, but they'll be around for a long time, and they'll keep pestering DL....thankfully.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 19):
Trust me, your not impressing anyone

And i'm glad you can speak for the entire flying public as a whole. You must have some real pull! I'm impressed!

[Edited 2006-08-07 15:15:52]

User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5585 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
DL never drove FL out of PNS. FL arrived in PNS in November 2001 and has continuously served PNS ever since.

Remember the days when it was known as Valujet?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
The ICT citizens were well aware their tax money was being used to subsidize Airtran. It was all over the newspapers from the beginning.

Nope, wrong again. After the news broke, the Wichita Eagle recieved a flood of letters from citizens, ticked off that money was being used to fund an airline, instead of being used for useful purposes, such as schools, etc. I have family that lives in ICT and working for Cessna who sent me a copy of one with a load of editorials to the editor expressing their displeasure. So it wasn't as well known as you'd like it to be.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
It was a travel bank put together by private business who were tired of DL's high fares and poor service.

It was still subsidized. They finally were able to say no to Airtran's incessant whining of "We need more." Fortunately for you, FL had enough ridership to warrant service. Thank the Navy. Oh, and about DL's poor service? Must not be too bad, ridership on DL has also increased ever since adding capacity. For some reason, people just want to fly Delta. I just can't understand it. scratchchin 

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
So your list has ten airports on it. Airtran serves 51 airports. So, it is in fact less than 20%.

First of all, there were 12. Learn to count. Secondly, there are more. Trust me. Unfortunately, I don't have the numbers to be able to say for sure, but if FL was able to get 12 of their 51 airports to cough up the cash, there are more, believe me.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
IND never gave subsidies.

BZZZ! Wrong again. IND did give subsidies, to the tune of 100,000 for 1 yr, but it was not government-ized, it was also a bank collected by local businesses.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
Full with low-yield leisure travelers that DL can't make a dime off of.

Have you seen the wages of Freedom pilots? Its making money. But of course, your not gonna let a post go by without saying, "RJ's don't make money." I'd honestly be surprised if you knew anything more about the airline industry.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
It should tell you something about your airline, when an airport specifically asks you not to come. They know your company is bad for business. Pretty sad that DL has that bad of a reputation.

Heh, must be. But I'll be damned if DL isn't the largest airline in terms of passengers carried, and also the largest international airline across the Atlantic. With all the over-capacity in the US, all that poor service and bad reputation has people coming back more and more to Delta. Horrible airline, let me tell ya. sarcastic 

Quoting 73G (Reply 21):
GSO, IND, FNT, and BMI are markets that never offered subsidies to FL.

GSO and IND did. I mentioned that I wasn't sure of FNT and BMI. But GSO and IND did, in fact, provide subsidies to FL. I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

Quoting 73G (Reply 21):
GSO was always a mainline DL station.

WHAT?! What the heck does GSO being a mainline DL station have to do with anything?

Quoting 73G (Reply 21):
Since FL transferred operations from VPS to PNS, they haven't left once.

Thats it, I'm tired of repeating myself. See answer above.

Quoting 73G (Reply 21):
I physically watched the door open and close and watched the people get on and off. I don't need statistics

And I don't need your counting to see what that flight is carrying day in and out. I've already checked for the better part of the next month, day after day, and damn near full each day. Unless you happened to do your "counting" hobby during the initial flight or so, but your numbers(wherever you claim to get them from) are nothing like the actual numbers.

Quoting 73G (Reply 21):
Nope. And neither was Song.

Your right, Song was better. Which is one reason DL is turning itself into Song. Good call, IMO.

Quoting 73G (Reply 21):
But it sure as heck beats an ERJ.

I don't know, I find the ERJ remarkably comfortable. Especially as they give you a little elbow room around the window seat. DL may put you on an RJ for a 2 hr flight, but at least it won't make you starve with nothing more than peanuts on a 6 hr ATL-LAX flight.



OttoPylit


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5559 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 23):
Remember the days when it was known as Valujet?

Valujet never served PNS. They served VPS and MOB, but never PNS.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 23):
I have family that lives in ICT and working for Cessna who sent me a copy of one with a load of editorials to the editor expressing their displeasure. So it wasn't as well known as you'd like it to be.

If people don't read, that's their problem. However, the subsidies were well known about.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 23):
Unfortunately, I don't have the numbers to be able to say for sure, but if FL was able to get 12 of their 51 airports to cough up the cash, there are more, believe me.

I don't believe you and neither do most people. You have proven time and time again that when it comes to Airtran you have an axe to grind. Your hatred of Airtran is so strong, that you are more than willing to make stuff up.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 23):
But I'll be damned if DL isn't the largest airline in terms of passengers carried

You are damned, because DL isn't the largest.

July 2006 (passengers carried):
DL (includes DL Connection): 10,042,771
AA (included American Eagle): 11,200,000

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 23):
Have you seen the wages of Freedom pilots? Its making money.

Do you really believe that pilot wages are that big of a driver of profitability? And if the route was really such a moneymaker, DL would continue it. However, the route ends in early September.


25 MSYtristar : ATL-LAX rarely is more than 4.5. 6 is JFK-SFO on DL with only buy on board (and of course the snack basket) in coach. You might as well buy something
26 Post contains images OttoPylit : You were the one that implied it, I just stated it. And I don't see anyone coming on here to oppose the statement. Seems everyone else wants to argue
27 Post contains links and images OttoPylit : I have a system timetable from mid 1996 that shows PNS with planned service to be commenced later, but perhaps that was put on hold by VJ592. By who?
28 73G : I've heard of it. The Gulfstream is a warm water current in the Atlantic Ocean that runs south to north along the eastern seaboard of the United Stat
29 Post contains links FlyPNS1 : Where's your proof of this? According to the folks in Wichita, Airtran saved them $67 million in the first 18 months of service. That's not a bad ret
30 MSYtristar : I've heard of it, yes. In this case, you are talking about the jetstream. 6 hours is VERY uncommon for ATL-LAX flights...maybe a few times a year, su
31 SESGDL : So has AA, and UA, and NW. All are flying considerably reduced fleets. There is no documented evidence that DL will indeed use 757s to Europe, though
32 Post contains images OttoPylit : Oops, my bad. I just happened to be at work and was trying to type while having a discussion at the same time about Gulfstream Intl Airlines. It just
33 Gsoflyer : GSO did offer Airtan subsidies at some point, maybe no time recent to 2004 when they stopped service, but they served Greensboro for over 10 years.
34 Post contains links AvConsultant : As for subsidies and FL, DL has received subsidies for years. LAN - revenue guarantee. http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...ori=NEWS03&Lopenr=509010
35 Travatl : We (ValuJet) never served PNS. I started in 1995, and have every J7 timetable ever printed.... no mention of PNS. We transferred ops from VPS to PNS f
36 OttoPylit : Any one else care to doubt? The point of the matter isn't whether an airline gets subsidies, they all do, for one market or another. The point is tha
37 Travatl : Go to London - I just got back yesterday... it was great. Weather was awesome, and the crowds weren't too bad. (Expensive as usual, but I think it's w
38 Tom in NO : The problem here is, a subsidy that is directed by the airport owner/operator towards one of its tenants does smack of discrimination, and the FAA do
39 MSYtristar : Well, I do understand what you're saying, but it's DL against FL in ICT of all places...it would be different in my view if ICT was giving a legacy c
40 AvConsultant : TLH has regreted losing FL, the fares have killed them. The Chamber is trying to lure a LCC again. Exactly, it is no ones business. This sparked my i
41 OttoPylit : And do you think they will lure FL? Nope. Unless FL was getting 1.3 million dollar subsidy a year, they couldn't hold foot in TLH. They bragged that
42 FlyPNS1 : Do you know the definition of money laundering? Here it is: money laundering n : concealing the source of illegally gotten money Since no one is conc
43 Gsoflyer : Guys, I am not saying the GSO gave a subsidy to Airtan in 2004 or 2003 or 2000. For all I know it could have been back in 1996 or 1997 when they firs
44 ROCandTPA : DL will now be a more a legitimate carrier at ICT with a mainline flight. Before they had crappy crjs. With crj service who cares if they stay or leav
45 AvConsultant : I've reached out to 3 people with the airport authorty who say "No." The only money IND shelled out to an airline was ATA back when they were in trou
46 Post contains images OttoPylit : If you pay attention, you will notice that I said it "fits the bill of money laundering." Because the way the money was being used in the first place
47 Post contains images Travatl : What frills is one getting from ICT to ATL on DL that they're not getting on AirTran? Please do not regale me with the 50 newest European destination
48 MSYtristar : Yea, I'd like to know that too. Has DL brought back the "Pawberry Punch" for the kids or something? Or maybe Dusty the Delta Air Lion will show up on
49 FlyPNS1 : How about the ability to upgrade to business class? Can you do that on a DCI ERJ? How about normal-sized over-head bins? Do you have those on an ERJ?
50 Alitalia744 : I've boarded a DCI ERJ through a jetway. As for business class, point for you FlyPMS1. Did I say DCI was premium service? I avoid DCI like the plague
51 Post contains images DAL767400ER : That depends on airports and airlines. Majority of boarding is indeed via apron, but nonetheless jetway boarding is done at quite a few airports, e.g
52 AvConsultant : Were you not paying attention or stirring $hit? My post clearly stated IND. Ted Johnson (PTI -Dir.) and Stephanie Freeman (PTI- Marketing Dir) did co
53 Gsoflyer : To be honest, it is a smart move for AirTran, a little annoying, but smart. Why fly to somewhere like GSO when subsidies dry up and loads are still hi
54 AvConsultant : Exactly, it's the evolution of business in a free market society. Times have changed, it's imperative to be innovative. Plus it's a 2 sided coin. Com
55 Post contains images OttoPylit : Ok, I'll have to have my people give them a call. But I need your name. You don't expect my people to call up these folks, clearly intent to point ou
56 AvConsultant : Explain you are following up on a thread off of Airliners.net. They know me. Again, be trust worthy because they gave money to ATA not FL. We discusse
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