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AC VS WJ At YYC  
User currently offlineGoBlue From Canada, joined Jun 2006, 216 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5185 times:

I have been wondering for a while why AC has not put up a bigger fight in Calgary to help keep Westjet from their expansion and profitability. If AC really wanted they could saturate the market with cheap seats, or make many new flights from Calgary, to connect to Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver.

I just think that they could be more pro-active in protecting their marketshare. Although i do understand that the Canadian Gov't is quick to step in to penalize AC for being a BUSINESS, rather then a charity.

102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMarkabcan From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5151 times:

What are you talking about? How does the government penalize Air Canada for being a business? Westjet is a strong company with a very faithful following, Air Canada could NOT simply destroy them by saturating the market without putting themselves back into bankruptcy protection which is where they belong anyway! Air Canada had a near monopoly for many years and still could not manage to make money, there was room in Canada for a well run airline and Westjet jumped in and took advantage. If Air Canada could eliminate the competition I assure you they would, problem is they can't, espscecialy with Milty in charge. If it wasn't for these ridiculous Canadian bankruptcy laws Air Canada would and should have been liquidated long ago!

Air Canada never saw the west as a priority but more of a pain, now they are paying for it, and rightfully so! It's catch up the other way around with Air Canada trying to compete with Westjet on their home turf. It's going to be a long battle that I know for sure.


User currently offlineChrisA330 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5142 times:

In fact the government has placed restrictions on where AC must have maintenance bases, where it's head office must be located, as well as bilingual requirements over and above other canadian companies - including WestJet.

On the other hand, AC is not in the market share business. It's in the business to make money. Capacity dumping in a market is a waste of resources, plus the fact they'd have the competition bureau on their ass in a flash.

AC will put resources on routes where it makes money. Simple as that.


User currently offlineMarkabcan From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5137 times:

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 2):
In fact the government has placed restrictions on where AC must have maintenance bases, where it's head office must be located, as well as bilingual requirements over and above other canadian companies - including WestJet

The only restriction that remains from Air Canada's crown corporation days is its billingual restriction, which seem a must anyway for a Eastern Canada based airline. They can have maintenace bases wherever they want, same goes for its head office! Air Canada once was a crown corporation, now it is publicly held corporation and is treated the same as other publicly held companies in Canada! The government cannot tell them what to do any more than they can tell Westjet!


User currently offlineChrisA330 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5129 times:

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 3):

I guess you've never heard of the Air Canada Public Participation Act?

http://www.tc.gc.ca/acts-regulations/general/a/acppa/act/acppa.html

Let me highlight the important pieces:

(d) provisions requiring the Corporation to maintain operational and overhaul centres in the City of Winnipeg, the Montreal Urban Community and the City of Mississauga; and

(e) provisions specifying that the head office of the Corporation is to be situated in the Montreal Urban Community.


User currently offlineChrisA330 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5121 times:

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 3):
The only restriction that remains from Air Canada's crown corporation days is its billingual restriction, which seem a must anyway for a Eastern Canada based airline

What a flawed comment. What should it matter where their base is?

On a YVR-YYC flight, why should AC have different language requirements then WS or any other airline?

For Quebec/New Brunswick origined/destined flights, then for sure they should have bilingual FAs, and AC has never argued that.

I'm not saying AC is perfect, but it is not a level playing field out there.


User currently offlineRamprat From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 188 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5073 times:

FYI, AC has more flights and passengers per day than WS out of YYC. I wouldn't say they they weren't being inactive as they have brought and announced alot of new routes in western Canada lately.

User currently offlineAC320tech From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 197 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5064 times:

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 1):
espscecialy with Milty in charge

Ugh, Milton is not in charge of AC, Monty Brewer is. Milton is incharge of ACE, AC's parent company.

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 3):
The only restriction that remains from Air Canada's crown corporation days is its bilingual restriction, which seem a must anyway for a Eastern Canada based airline.

No, AC chooses to be bi-lingual, they chose to be it since AC was formed.

AC doesnt see YYC as a great city to work out of, the flights that are out of it are enough and serve it well. AC hubs out of YYZ, YUL and YVR, and both YVR and YUL hubs dont have as many flights as YYZ, and not to mention the fact that YUL is where the head offices are located.


User currently offlineMarkabcan From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5062 times:

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 5):
What a flawed comment. What should it matter where their base is?

Because this is where their most loyal customers will often reside, which is true between Montreal and Toronto.

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 5):
On a YVR-YYC flight, why should AC have different language requirements then WS or any other airline?

This silly law has no effect at all on the bottom line of Air Canada. There FAs are not paid a premium because they are bilingual. It is true that this is a slight annoyance for Air Canada, nothing else. This does not make it a uneven playing field by any means.

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 5):
I'm not saying AC is perfect, but it is not a level playing field out there.

AC is not perfect, nor is Westjet but after looking at the Air Canada Participation Act I see nothing that would hinder the companies profitability. They probably would be based in Montreal with or without this silly act. A maintenance base in Winnipeg is a natural spot anyway that again would probably exist either way.

Quoting Ramprat (Reply 6):
FYI, AC has more flights and passengers per day than WS out of YYC. I wouldn't say they they weren't being inactive as they have brought and announced alot of new routes in western Canada lately

AC is agressivaly growing in Calgary so they certainly are trying to stay competitive!


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5057 times:

In the last year, Air Canada has added new service from Calgary to Orlando, New York JFK, Palm Springs, Comox, Yellowknife, Fort McMurray while expanding service to Toronto/Montreal/Victoria/Los Angeles etc.

Air Canada remains the preferred carrier in Calgary, especially given that it is the only Canadian carrier to provide regular international service.

[Edited 2006-08-06 00:26:49]

User currently offlineMarkabcan From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5047 times:

Quoting AC320tech (Reply 7):
Ugh, Milton is not in charge of AC, Monty Brewer is. Milton is incharge of ACE, AC's parent company.

Yes, but Milton is where the buck stops concerning anything important related to the organization.

Quoting AC320tech (Reply 7):
No, AC chooses to be bi-lingual, they chose to be it since AC was formed.

No, it is the law that they remain bilingual, as stated earlier read the Air Canada Participation Act

Quoting AC320tech (Reply 7):
AC doesnt see YYC as a great city to work out of, the flights that are out of it are enough and serve it well

Again, no! They missed the boat with Calgary and are now expanding rapidly!


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5044 times:

Quoting GoBlue (Thread starter):
If AC really wanted they could saturate the market with cheap seats

AC has tried this many times and while it may hurt the competition by driving down yield, it hurts AC alrready.

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 1):
Air Canada had a near monopoly for many years and still could not manage to make money, there was room in Canada for a well run airline and Westjet jumped in and took advantage.

 checkmark  Moreover, AC's financial performance since emergence from CCAA has not provided investment grade returns. Not even closely.

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 2):
In fact the government has placed restrictions on where AC must have maintenance bases, where it's head office must be located, as well as bilingual requirements over and above other canadian companies - including WestJet.

An airline the size of AC is not unduly harmed with 3 mx bases, vs 1 or 2. That 2 of them were mandated to be in 2 relatively economically depressed cities with lower than average labour costs (YUL, YWG) might actually be helping AC keep costs down.

The AC YUL head office requirement is ridiculous. The HQ should be where the main hub is, in YYZ. AC could also draw on a much bigger pool of capable management in the YYZ market.

The bilingual requirement could simply be ignored by AC. It is unenforceable.

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 5):
I'm not saying AC is perfect, but it is not a level playing field out there.

I agree....it's still tilted in AC's favour. It's actually WJ and others who are treated unfairly. AC benefits from the international route authorities of flying into LHR which were given to AC when it was a favoured crown corporation. Upon its privatization, these lucrative rights should have been re-auctioned.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineMarkabcan From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5044 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 9):
Air Canada remains the preferred carrier in Calgary, especially given that it is the only Canadian carrier to provide regular international service.

Uhhh, I can say without a doubt that Westjet appears to be the preferred carrier in Calgary, support your home town airline kind of thing! Hence, their profitability is soaring and they are continuing to expand! There is no way to actually gage this though.


User currently offlineMarkabcan From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5040 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 11):
It's actually WJ and others who are treated unfairly. AC benefits from the international route authorities of flying into LHR which were given to AC when it was a favoured crown corporation. Upon its privatization, these lucrative rights should have been re-auctioned.

Absolutely! LHR slots should have been auctioned off long ago!


User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4989 times:

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 12):
Hence, their profitability is soaring and they are continuing to expand!

Tell that to the large investment companies in Canada,who take a view that they are "unimpressed" with the latest WS quarterly results. Mind you,I don't think AC will be shown any mercy next week when they release their own quarterly results.

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 13):
Absolutely! LHR slots should have been auctioned off long ago!

What a load of rubbish,you've got to be kidding,what world do you live in?


User currently offlineMarkabcan From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4974 times:

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 14):
What a load of rubbish,you've got to be kidding,what world do you live in?

The world where competition is important to keep prices and service in check! Not the world where old crown corporation hand outs give a company a significant competitive advantage despite its eventual privatization from the government.

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 14):
Tell that to the large investment companies in Canada,who take a view that they are "unimpressed" with the latest WS quarterly results. Mind you,I don't think AC will be shown any mercy next week when they release their own quarterly results.

True, but I never claimed that WestJet shares should be the mainstay of anyone's stock portfolio. They have shown consistent and growing profits, something Air Canada has never been able to accomplish! Whether yields are slightly down or earnings per share did not quite meet expectations is not my main concern, the companies profitability is!


User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4961 times:

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 12):
Uhhh, I can say without a doubt that Westjet appears to be the preferred carrier in Calgary

Rather than anecdotal stories, can we see some cold, hard facts, please? Let's look at the number of passengers last year and year to date from Calgary, the number of flights, number of seats, etc.

Thanks. We down south are enjoying the battle up north, but some facts would be appreciated.


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4946 times:

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 12):
Uhhh, I can say without a doubt that Westjet appears to be the preferred carrier in Calgary, support your home town airline kind of thing! Hence, their profitability is soaring and they are continuing to expand! There is no way to actually gage this though.

I am not one to like motherhood statements. Once again, Air Canada is the market leader in the Calgary market. It offers more daily flights and more daily seats to more destinations in the WORLD. This is NOT debatable.

In fact, Air Canada has 3 daily trans-atlantic flights out of Calgary, for a population that just this year hit 1,000,000 residents according to Statistics Canada. This would be unheard of south of the border. Air Canada has recognized the value of the Calgary market for the very beginning, and has retained it's market leadership no doubt.

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 15):
True, but I never claimed that WestJet shares should be the mainstay of anyone's stock portfolio. They have shown consistent and growing profits, something Air Canada has never been able to accomplish! Whether yields are slightly down or earnings per share did not quite meet expectations is not my main concern, the companies profitability is!

What a lame attempt to compare apples and oranges. WestJet is a low cost carrier with one fleet type, serving one segment of the market. Air Canada is a multi-dimensional carriers with several fleet types, satisfying virtually all segments of the market. Their cost structures and vulnerability to external market pressures are not at all the same.

Clearly my Albertan friend, you can do better than this.


User currently offlineMarkabcan From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4926 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 17):
Once again, Air Canada is the market leader in the Calgary market. It offers more daily flights and more daily seats to more destinations in the WORLD.

Yes, Air Canada does offer more seats to more destinations, what's your point? That certainly does not make them the preferred carrier here in Calgary, it makes them the largest carrier here in Calgary! Market success is dictated by long term sustainability and success, not who throws the most seats into the market.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 17):
In fact, Air Canada has 3 daily trans-atlantic flights out of Calgary, for a population that just this year hit 1,000,000 residents according to Statistics Canada. This would be unheard of south of the border.

Yes, I assure you those flights are not charities but profitable or they would be discontinued. This is not a favour to our city from Air Canada! In fact British Airways will be entering the market shortly illustrating that the demand is there, one million people or not.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 17):
Air Canada has recognized the value of the Calgary market for the very beginning, and has retained it's market leadership no doubt.

If this was true Air Canada wouldn't be scrambling to add focus and capacity to the YYC market. Westjet saw the potential of YYC and exploited it as any well run business should, if Air Canada had its act together Westjet would have never had the chance.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 17):
What a lame attempt to compare apples and oranges. WestJet is a low cost carrier with one fleet type, serving one segment of the market. Air Canada is a multi-dimensional carriers with several fleet types, satisfying virtually all segments of the market. Their cost structures and vulnerability to external market pressures are not at all the same

And I never said that they had the same cost structure. In the end of the day shareholders don't care about excuses regarding a companies cost structure, they care about profits, that is the bottom line! If you can't make money with international ops and a first class cabin, do away with it.

Clearly my Quebecois friend, you can do better than this

[Edited 2006-08-06 03:23:00]

User currently offlineAC320tech From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 197 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4907 times:

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 15):
True, but I never claimed that WestJet shares should be the mainstay of anyone's stock portfolio. They have shown consistent and growing profits, something Air Canada has never been able to accomplish!

Like FLYYUL said, you cannot compare AC to WS. We are bigger than WS, if you want to fly to LHR, HKG, NRT, Or any ware in the US, Europe, Asia, or the South Pacific, you will call AC cause WS doesnt fly there.

If you want to compare stocks, AC's stock is high, $30+ high. WS, $10-$14.


User currently offlineMarkabcan From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4897 times:

Quoting AC320tech (Reply 19):
Like FLYYUL said, you cannot compare AC to WS. We are bigger than WS, if you want to fly to LHR, HKG, NRT, Or any ware in the US, Europe, Asia, or the South Pacific, you will call AC cause WS doesnt fly there.

If you want to compare stocks, AC's stock is high, $30+ high. WS, $10-$14.

Again who cares where they fly, that is not an excuse to lose money! Of course you can easily compare them, they are both trying to run airlines, difference is one is continually profitable and the other is not! LHR, HKG, FRA, doesn't matter, it's not an excuse to lose money, it's a explanation but not an excuse.

You cannot just compare the price of stocks to decide who is in a better financial position, that's not how finance works. Westjet has had several stock splits to keep the price down.


User currently offlineAC320tech From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 197 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4884 times:

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 20):

Again who cares where they fly, that is not an excuse to lose money! Of course you can easily compare them, they are both trying to run airlines, difference is one is continually profitable and the other is not! LHR, HKG, FRA, doesn't matter, it's not an excuse to lose money, it's a explanation but not an excuse.


Um lots of people seem to care where we fly, because thats one of the reasons why people choose to fly an airline.

Loose money? What are you talking about, this isnt 2002, this is 2006 and for the past quarters since sept 30th 2004, weve been turning one helluva profit.

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 20):

You cannot just compare the price of stocks to decide who is in a better financial position, that's not how finance works. Westjet has had several stock splits to keep the price down.

Well you compared stocks and stock portfolios and said we should have WS instead of AC stock.

[Edited 2006-08-06 03:49:28]

User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4884 times:

AC history is much,much longer than WS(80 v 10 years),so in all fairness,they can never and should never be compared apples to apples. What they have in common is airline seats,and that's where the comparison stops.

[Edited 2006-08-06 04:01:15]

User currently offlineAC320tech From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 197 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4873 times:

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 22):
AC history is much,much longer than WS(80 v 10 years),so in all fairness,they can never and should never compared apples to apples. What they have in common is airline seats,and that's where the comparison stops.

Exactly, why do we have to compare AC to WS, its like comparing AA to B6.

I wouldn't be so sure about the seats, because someone will say "no, WS has TV's in them!"


User currently offlineBO__einG From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2770 posts, RR: 18
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4846 times:

Calgary is in a specially unique position right now gushing like crazy for economic growth. Each of those Air Canada oceanic flights bring in like $100,000 a day for local economy ranging from the airport, the city, to the store owners.
I think its good that AC is maintaining a dominant fix to our international networks. I just can't stange having our city be served by numerous cheap charter carriers when we can have a quality full service airline.

I would agree to a number of FLYYUL's points. AC is of course the nation's largest airline so they are probably the dominant airline in all major canadian cities including ours despite the WestJet stronghold.
I'm not sure about being the preferred airline by our city. That may be more of a personal opinion rather than a fact. Even though there are many flights by AC if some of these flights go with a marginal~average load while WJ on a competing route usually goes full, then WJ would be the preferred one however this would apply to only one route and not the entire network.

WJ and AC I believe falls under different catagories since they are vastly different in the way they operate but since they are the two biggest I suppose many would put them as same rank and choose between one or the other. WJ's domestic network is very strong keeping AC on its heels, International and transborder I would say AC is still the leader on that.
Next year with the new planes it is said to add a transpacific flight to Calgary.

Remember, we have 1 million people while places in the US such as Kansas City, St Louis, Cleveland, Pittsburgh that are larger don't have the kind of opportunities like we do. Calgary is a lucky city and it will continue to be for the future.



Chance favors the prepared mind.
25 Post contains images FLYYUL : Air Canada is preferred as it provides the most comprehensive network for Calgarians and Albertans. The logic follows suit. Calgarians wanting to trav
26 TIMEAIR : In reality, AC does not have the aircraft available to increase capacity out of YYC without significantly impacting other parts of it's operations. Y
27 NorthStarDC4M : sorry, but i just have to get this out of my system: When AC was privatised, it wasnt anywhere near a monopoly. It had a competitor called Canadian,
28 Yyz717 : Flights that were awarded when AC was a crown corporation, and which should be re-auctioned. AC hardly developed these routes....they were handed to
29 FLYYUL : Neil, We'll argue about this over a beer some day. I think for the most part, my argument is pretty sound. Say what you will about Air Canada, they ce
30 Post contains images ACDC8 : Oh please! AC was there long before WS was even a twinkle in someones eye. AC received the rights for LHR, shared them with CP and has every right to
31 Post contains images BO__einG : It is 1x daily for FRA and twice daily for LHR. Also that downgrades to 1x LHR in the winter but thats okay. BA will fill in for the second daily LHR.
32 ACDC8 : Did AC not have a restriction put on them when WS first started service? IIRC, AC was not allowed to form a LCC for a certain period of time or someth
33 Markabcan : Profitability is key, not the amount of prestigeous destinations! Not enough people are chossing to fly Air Canada because thery are losing money in
34 FLYYUL : So following your logic, Air Transat is the preferred airline over Air Canada in the year 2004, as their financial statements showed more black ink?
35 Markabcan : No, I never said the most profitable airline is the preferred airline. However I did say that the biggest airline is not necessarily the preferred ai
36 Sebring : And why is that? How many Crown corporations give away assets for nothing as part of their privatization. The whole point of privatization is to make
37 Yyz717 : AC received the LHR et al route authorities for free. Hence, they should be relinquished by AC at the same price. AC can rebid on them. No, it's not.
38 Olympus69 : Unfortunately, I read this topic rather late in the day, but I would like to address a couple of the points raised :- If this only affected Flight Att
39 Markabcan : The difference is that maintenance facilities do not give them a significant and unearned competitive advantage,LHR slots do.
40 Post contains links AC320tech : Of course your going to loose money when your paying for something. Not enough people are choosing to fly AC? I hardly think that, considering the Ju
41 Markabcan : Good load factors itself is not the whole story. I stand by my comments. People are only willing to fly Air Canada at a low price, a price which is n
42 FLYYUL : Absolute non-sense. Review your statement. Air Canada has many more loyal customers than WestJet.. common sense my friend.
43 Yyz717 : Markabcan is correct Mark. AC has NOT produced investment grade returns since its emergence from bankruptcy. Revenue is not covering and exceeding co
44 Markabcan : Nonsense, how so? The sheer number of loyal customers is not the point, the fare they're paying is what's important. Air Canada ended up under bankru
45 FLYYUL : This is such a ridiculous argument. Anyway enjoy blowing out your brain on this, i'm out of this one.
46 9252fly : Would anyone know when AC started service to London? It's probably fair to guess that it was 1946. As a crown corp,they would have started the route a
47 Post contains images YULYMX : i think that the major hub should be where the head office is
48 ACDC8 : I find it interesting how people seem to know what other people are willing to pay for a flight.
49 Markabcan : Well, they continue to lose money so I assure you it isn't enough
50 ACDC8 : According to most financial reports, AC is doing quite well. Unless you can provide sources that prove otherwise.
51 Post contains links AC320tech : No, your both incorrect because in the past 2 years since september 30th 2004, we have been producing profits, and if you dont think so, last quarter
52 Post contains images A332 : hahaha... yeah, that's it! WestJet is by far the preferred airline and really the only reason people will choose Air Canada is because they are the o
53 9252fly : That's one reason and not the only one. AC was having serious problems prior to the merger,just look at their financial picture prior. Granted,the ac
54 FLYACYYZ : On their own, I wouldn't say the South American routes tend to be the highest in the entire network. The boon to AC over the last few years is the co
55 FLYYUL : A332.. your a smart one. Look at the amount of flights AC vs WS on major markets. Then lets return and debate.
56 FLYACYYZ : At the end of the day, everybody is entitled to their own personal preference for whatever reasons. With a booming economy, premium traffic will esca
57 Markabcan : Consistency is the key, sustainable profits over the long term. Westjet has proven its capability to achieve this, AC has not, period! Yes, Air Canad
58 Skywatcher : I don't think any airline can be considered "investment grade". Airline stocks are too volatile given the unavoidable high fixed costs and the variabi
59 AC320tech : Consistency? Ugh, this is my last statement before I just quit egging you on, AC's profits have been constant. Yeah sure we were, were, in debt. But
60 Yyz717 : Ummm, no. Did you actually read the results you posted???????? 2 of the those 5 "stellar" quarterly results releases that you posted above actually s
61 Olympus69 : I don't know what you mean by 'unearned'. In any event, who would have been interested in bidding for those slots. Canadian? AC is in the midst of a
62 Markabcan : I assure you I have a very strong accounting background so please let me bring something to your attention. Air Canada's financial results suffer fro
63 Markabcan : These very lucrative rights were obtained when Air Canada was a Crown Corporation, they then privatized yet still have these prestigious rights. They
64 ACDC8 : In regards to the whole AC/LHR slot debacle. Back in 1999, just as the AC/CP merger was starting, Transport Canada came up with a Canadian Airline Ind
65 AC320tech : Exactly, my point exactly. There are to many arm chair CEO's. Operating losses dont overrule profits. Profits fill in the operating losses. Its like
66 Markabcan : That makes no sense? If the airline is experiencing an operating loss they are losing money on the day to day operations of the airline. I don't know
67 Olympus69 : I still don't agree with your point of view, but life is too short to keep on arguing about historical rights and wrongs. There is no way that AC is
68 AC320tech : Well if that is the case then, AC would not post profits. We have profits, we are profitable, yeah sure we may have had a operating loss, but we have
69 Swissy : A320 is right, a profit is a profit some operations loose money and some make money, AC has many branches but at the end as a whole company AC made m
70 Robsawatsky : I can assure you that the investment community looks at operational losses/profits and one-time gains/losses very differently. The one time items may
71 NorthStarDC4M : ok i know how to settle this. we will auction all of markabcan's property that he received while living off his parents. After all he didn't earn any
72 A332 : WestJet has already deviated from it's original low-cost no frills structure, PTVs for example. Canada does not have the population to sustain a low-
73 YULYMX : they will need something else than a B737-700 to do so... From YYC-YVR-YYZ-YUL to reach Asia or Europe
74 Post contains links and images Markabcan : Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 69): I still don't agree with your point of view, but life is too short to keep on arguing about historical rights and wrongs
75 Post contains images A332 : Exactly... and it will happen eventually. Although there have been rumblings about utilizing the 73G for pond-hopping... the logical choice would be
76 Swissy : Agree 100% sooner or later something is going to give They need a partner for the USA, WS will not produce enough funds to make it at their own......
77 AC320tech : Amen to that! If your saying AC has a unfair advantage to WS because they are bigger and better but you want them to give up routes to give WS an "ad
78 Markabcan : Yes, I still think Froniter would be a great fit. Frontier could continue its expansion into new Canadian markets with feed from Westjet and vise ver
79 FLYACYYZ : It was always a downline enhancement planned for next generation 737's. It would't have been cost effective or smart to install LiveTv on 737-200's w
80 A332 : It still costs the airline money and it is still a deviation from a no frills low-cost structure and was used as an example... fly Air Canada domesti
81 CP744 : ACE has been producing a profit the last few quarters, not Air Canada.
82 CP744 : Back to the subject at hand.......... If WS offered as many destinations as AC did, via STAR, and had the international routes, there would be no comp
83 Sebring : You'd be wrong. Go to ACE's MD&A for the second quarter, or the middle quarters of 2005, and you will certainly see a profit. AC's pre-tax profitabil
84 Multimark : I'm sorry, there's a lot of claptrap in this thread, but this takes the cake. Bilingualism certainly does cost ACE money. For example, AC Jazz is for
85 Yulguy : Multimark, I thought "angryphones" like you were a legend. I guess not. Disappointing that in the year 2006, some folk think "French is being rammed d
86 AC320tech : Yulguy is right, and has certainly changed some of my views on Quebecers. I think AC being Bilingual makes it unique to the market and is a in-your-fa
87 Robsawatsky : I highly doubt it. Unless the person is a frequent business traveller the commodity nature of flying today would suggest that decisions are based upo
88 AC320tech : Service includes language. If you only speak and know French, and no English, your choice will be simple.
89 9252fly : I would have to agree. Price is king. In regards to business travellers,they tend not to have a choice as many companies also consider price when arr
90 VonRichtofen : This may come as a surprise to some on here because I was born and raised in Western Canada, but I agree with Yulguy. I'm one of those English Canadi
91 Markabcan : I have been away from this thread for a while but this is ridiculous! Are you kidding, and by the way, I am bilingual. Isn't the rule in Quebec that
92 Threepoint : I agree with the content of Yulguy's post, but his indignance was directed to the wrong person! I have read Multimark's post a few times and can not
93 Yulguy : Hmmm...speaking of indignance. "A full apology for unwarranted scathing"?? My comments merely inferred that Multimark may be an "angryphone". That, by
94 Markabcan : Oh please get off the Quebec is so innocent and all of Canada is against us rant. Was it anti-Canada or anti-English when Quebec came an inch away fr
95 Yulguy : Ah yes, the famous "luxury" of being able to totally disregard the majority of inhabitants of a city. Multilingual signs are great; we're a diverse c
96 AC320tech : Ahahhahah "Angryphone", thats a keeper. Simply to put a and to this Angryphone vs. Furiousophones, both sides need to be fixed before we can speak abo
97 Post contains images Yulguy : Good points AC320Tech!! I like your open-mindedness, which is one of the core traits of all Canadians (both in French and English Canada). Simply put,
98 Post contains images NorthStarDC4M : There are a great many stores in this country that DON'T have english or french signs, Vancouver included, and I have yet to see any province besides
99 Yulguy : Oh God, here I go again trying to defend language policy to people who supposedly support the idea of promoting French. Quebec's laws are not that res
100 NorthStarDC4M : oh dont get me wrong, the entire country in crazy... And let me make things really confusing: I was born Protestant English Educated Catholic French a
101 Yulguy : I appreciate your comments Northstar. The Protestant-Catholic comment, by the way, was a generalization about different cultures. I, myself, am Belfas
102 Threepoint : Read my post again. In fact, read all the other posts again. You will be hard-pressed to find any animosity from anyone in this thread, towards anyon
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