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3 US Airlines At Heathrow  
User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 658 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 12035 times:

Going through Airchive.com I read that National Airlines began service from London Heathrow in June 1970. From that date until's National's merger with Pan Am in 1980 there were three US carriers flying to Heathrow with TWA being the 3rd airline.

What happened after that date that prohibited another carrier from beginning operations to Heathrow?

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12014 times:

Quoting PavlovsDog (Thread starter):
What happened after that date that prohibited another carrier from beginning operations to Heathrow?

Bermuda II



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12014 times:

Quoting PavlovsDog (Thread starter):
What happened after that date that prohibited another carrier from beginning operations to Heathrow?

National had Grandfather rights to operate, much like Kuwait and Air India currently operate to New York...

Read More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_II

[Edited 2006-08-06 21:18:19]


Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11995 times:

How about

Quote:
Bermuda II is a Bilateral Air Transport Agreement between the governments of the United Kingdom and the United States signed on July 23, 1977 as a renegotiation of the 1946 Bermuda Agreement, which restricts air service from London Airports to the United States. Bermuda II has been revised several times since its signing. As a highly restrictive agreement it contrasts with the principle of open skies.

And there are THREE US airlines serving LHR today - I'll give you a hint, they don't all carry passengers!


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12566 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11995 times:
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Ah, National Airlines at Heathrow!

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Brimley
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Brimley



Don't forget Delta!

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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Brimley




Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11926 times:

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 2):
National had Grandfather rights to operate, much like Kuwait and Air India currently operate to New York...

Don't forget NZ with their full 5th freedom rights for LAX-LHR.


User currently offlineARGinLON From Vatican City, joined Jun 2005, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11926 times:

Bermuda II aslo says:

American and British regulatory authorities must approve airline's pricing.

What do they mean by this? I don't really think this happens.....


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4920 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11860 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 3):
And there are THREE US airlines serving LHR today - I'll give you a hint, they don't all carry passengers!

I take it you mean DHL as the 3rd carrier - but aren't their flights operated by their Belgium subsidary European Air Transport?



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11818 times:

Quoting ARGinLON (Reply 6):
American and British regulatory authorities must approve airline's pricing.

What do they mean by this? I don't really think this happens...

I'm not sure when/if the regs on this were relaxed, but fares used to be highly scrutinized!

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...A962948260&sec=travel&pagewanted=1



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRayPettit From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 608 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11796 times:

Remember, Delta's flights were really Pan American's.

Rather like Northwest.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11652 times:

Quoting RayPettit (Reply 9):
Rather like Northwest

???????


User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 11344 times:

Interchange service.

PanAm crews flew the Delta birds on routes Delta didn't have
route authority for.

Before deregulation even some domestic U.S. routes were flown that way.



737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 11280 times:

Quoting FI642 (Reply 11):
PanAm crews flew the Delta birds on routes Delta didn't have
route authority for.

PA did interline service for NW, DL and BN to LHR. (Did I miss any?)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 11280 times:

The Delta flights at LHR operated ATL-IAD-LHR.......the only way back then to provide direct service between the ATL hub and London; the flight was operated on an interchange basis with Pan Am and the "Delta flight" into London actually carried a Pan Am flight number......the good old days.

National flew the MIA-LHR route for years, with DC8s, then 741s and finally DC10-30s. Nonstop service from Miami to London was a very big deal back then.


User currently offlineLhrmaccoll From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 10648 times:

Quoting Humberside (Reply 7):
And there are THREE US airlines serving LHR today - I'll give you a hint, they don't all carry passengers!

I take it you mean DHL as the 3rd carrier

DHL is owned by Deutsche Post, they are certainly not a USA company anymore...


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8675 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 10503 times:

Today UA and AA serve it. I think UPS runs charters to there. Not sure.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineAA623BDLSJU From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 354 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9639 times:

Well after October only AA will be the only US carrier offering passenger service to LHR. UA has sold their London slots to DL. However, DL cannot serve LHR as of yet, because they are not on the Bermuda II agreement. DL will commence service JFK-LGW later in the year and a 2nd flight will begin in 2007.

User currently offlineTymnBalewne From Bermuda, joined Mar 2005, 949 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9591 times:

Quoting AA623BDLSJU (Reply 16):
Well after October only AA will be the only US carrier offering passenger service to LHR. UA has sold their London slots to DL. However, DL cannot serve LHR as of yet, because they are not on the Bermuda II agreement. DL will commence service JFK-LGW later in the year and a 2nd flight will begin in 2007.

I believe DL only purchased JFK-LON. Won't UA will still fly IAD, ORD to LHR?

C.



Dewmanair...begins with Dew
User currently offlineCharlienorth From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1122 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9558 times:

DL only purchased JFK-LGW authority,no LHR slots were sold.

User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2924 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 9321 times:

FYI:

http://airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/2905784

http://airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/2915183

Recent discussions about the UA-DL London transaction, Bermuda 2, and who has the rights to Heathrow....


User currently offlineL1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 989 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 9321 times:

Quoting AA623BDLSJU (Reply 16):
Well after October only AA will be the only US carrier offering passenger service to LHR. UA has sold their London slots to DL.

Wrong!!! UA only sold its NYC-LON-NYC route authority to DL. However DL does not have any access to LHR under Bermuda II.

UA still serves LHR from IAD, ORD, LAX and SFO with several daily flights and will remain one of two US carriers (AA being the other one) at LHR.

Best regards

L1011Lover


User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 8970 times:

Quoting FI642 (Reply 11):
Interchange service.

PanAm crews flew the Delta birds on routes Delta didn't have
route authority for.

Before deregulation even some domestic U.S. routes were flown that way.

and after dereg.....like AA/AS on SEA-ANC routes...for years.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineExpress1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7678 times:

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 20):

they might want to start looking into scraping the Burmuda II. I cannot see the point. Its stopping airlines who want to use airports like LHR to extend their services and to make airlines more profitable?, i also hurd that LHR is a much easy connection for passengers into central London than it is from LGW.

dave


User currently offlineLhrmaccoll From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7081 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 15):
Today UA and AA serve it. I think UPS runs charters to there. Not sure.

UPS don't serve Heathrow
Alex


User currently offlineFURUREFA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 802 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7066 times:

Quoting Express1 (Reply 22):

they might want to start looking into scraping the Burmuda II. I cannot see the point. Its stopping airlines who want to use airports like LHR to extend their services and to make airlines more profitable?, i also hurd that LHR is a much easy connection for passengers into central London than it is from LGW.

dave

What about the the airlines in Bermuda II, wouldn't they want to keep their service to LHR with minimum competition?

Matt


25 SAA346 : DHL quickly devolved into a global company in the 80's, headquartered LHR then BRU leaving the country operating company (plc, inc etc...) in the US.
26 SR800 : If I recall correctly, didn't Eastern operate to LHR from MIA with DC10s for a while...around 1981?
27 Bistro1200 : I can assure you, it does happen right now and they are very thorough.
28 Tsnamm : Actually it was MIA-LGW...which CO "inherited" when EA went out of business...CO then stopped the route in the early 90's...MIA not being a CO hub...
29 CRFLY : Very Interesting... But I have a question: How did AA and UA gained access to LHR after buying the slots of TW and PA respectively, and now DL can't g
30 Commavia : AA and United didn't just buy slots at Heathrow -- they also purchased the actual route authorities that allowed them to fly into and out of Heathrow
31 EWRCabincrew : That was a GREAT 6 day trip!!!
32 PavlovsDog : I still havent' read any specifics of why the numbers of US passenger carries to Heathrow was reduced from 3 to 2 upon National's absorption into Pan
33 BCAL : I remember at the time that National was granted the rights to fly MIA-LHR, it was a one-off amendment to Bermuda II and most people had expected that
34 Bobnwa : One more time, DL did not buy the UA slots at LHR. It bought the route from New York to London only. Since DL does not have the authority to fly to L
35 AeroWesty : National began nonstop service from MIA to LHR in June 1970. Bermuda II didn't come into being until July 1977.
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