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Thoughts On A LCC With A Hub At CMH  
User currently offlineNwa747-400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1337 posts, RR: 5
Posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3995 times:

Since HP left CMH, does anyone think a LCC could make a go of things with a base of operations at CMH? Thanks.

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGoBlue From Canada, joined Jun 2006, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3988 times:

I am not sure there is enough traffic there to merit a hub operation. I can see them having some good flights into and out of the area, but i am not sure that it is viable. If american West could not keep a hub there, i am not sure there are many airlines that can.

User currently offlineS5FA170 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 534 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3955 times:

America West left for reasons outside of CMH not being a "viable hub". FlyCMH will have some great insight into both the demise of HP's hub and CMH's ability to attract a hub carrier these days.

Look into old topics regarding SkyBus. While I think that whole idea is a disaster, their is probably some great insight into the CMH market in those old threads.

-Tony



Prepare doors for departure and cross-check.
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9104 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3944 times:

How about the thread "Here comes Skybus?" Someone even stated that they're essentially like the Ryan Air of the US of A. Or was that SWA... I dunno. It was mostly because they liked flying into airports that were miles away from the actuall city, like flying into RFD to serve Chicago, or ISP to serve New York. BUR to serve LA...

It would be rather difficult for any startup carrier to take off nowadays. People have argued that there are already tons of seats flying now, and couple that with rising fuel and other operating costs in many areas, it will be supremely difficult for any new airline to startup anywhere really...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7737 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3910 times:

America West could have made a viable hub @ CMH had they really wanted to. It was created in the early 90s as they entered bankruptcy to help establish a stronger presence in the east and into Florida, at a time when they lacked enough planes with the range/payload to operate to the east coast/Florida from their west coast hubs. After HP left bankruptcy in the mid-90s new Airbuses came into the fleet in significant numbers new/add'l routes east from PHX and LAS bypassed Columbus making the hub redundant. Furthermore HP never served more than a small handful of cities west of CMH nonstop (ORD, MDW, DFW, and LAX). Most west coast flights would require a double connect... but besides LGA, there wasn't a single city served from CMH that did not have nonstop service to PHX/LAS. Though by the time HP began rebuilding the CMH hub in the late 90s I am not sure that many cities west of the Mississippi were all that viable from CMH.

Ultimately what kills CMH as a hub, besides Columbus being a smaller big city, is that the entire midwest/great lakes region is just over saturated with hub cites (ORD, DTW, CLE, CVG, PIT, STL).

CMH does seem to work was as a smallish O&D based operation. Many of the HPx routes flown by Chataqua are still being flown under the Delta Connection banner.


And I am sure FlyCMH could tell us a ton more.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9104 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3884 times:

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 4):
Ultimately what kills CMH as a hub, besides Columbus being a smaller big city, is that the entire midwest/great lakes region is just over saturated with hub cites (ORD, DTW, CLE, CVG, PIT, STL).

That, and isn't the overall population decreasing, with the exception of Chicago? I mean, you have the rust belt there that has been losing ppl to the South and West since the 1970s.

I am not sure of what the CMH terminal set up/design even looks like - how many gates they have as well as the layout. I was about to ask if the terminal was built for a specific airline to hold some hub/focus city operation there, but that is not always the case. Sometimes airports become hubs because of great amounts of demand there. Was PHL built just for US?



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineDeltaRules From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3697 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3808 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 5):
I am not sure of what the CMH terminal set up/design even looks like - how many gates they have as well as the layout. I was about to ask if the terminal was built for a specific airline to hold some hub/focus city operation there, but that is not always the case. Sometimes airports become hubs because of great amounts of demand there. Was PHL built just for US?

http://www.port-columbus.com/home.asp
http://www.port-columbus.com/maps/ticketing.2.pdf


-38 gates.
-CO & WN operate from Concourse A
-UA, US/HP, AA, NW, YX, AC operate from B.
-DL & U5 operate out of Concourse C. B6 will operate out of C once they start service.
-AFAIK, Gates A1, B16, B17, B19, B20 & as of now, C47-52 are the only ones that aren't occupied. I haven't seen anything as to which gates B6 will use in C...I'm not sure if FlyCMH has heard anything or not about that.

The terminal where HP operated wasn't custom built for them. I think I saw that it opened in 1958. IIRC, CMH's Concourse A was built for USAir, though.

DeltaRules

[Edited 2006-08-07 19:48:32]


Let's Kick the Tires & Light the Fires!!
User currently offlineNwa747-400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1337 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3781 times:

So what gates did HP use for their hub?

User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3781 times:

Oh yea, let's go back to the days of a US Airways' mini-hub in a zillion places. Remember the 1980s and 1990s when US Airways' operated mini-hubs in DAY, CMH, CLE, IND, EWR, and so on and so on ... I do not think a CMH hub is in the cards for US Airways.

User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6573 posts, RR: 32
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3769 times:

Quoting S5FA170 (Reply 2):
America West left for reasons outside of CMH not being a "viable hub".

They left because they were losing money hand-over-fist at CMH. To quote the company's press release dated February 10, 2003:

Quote:
"America West established Columbus as part of a strategy to connect passengers within the southern and central United States to East Coast markets," said Scott Kirby, executive vice president, Sales and Marketing. "However, as flights from our primary hubs of Phoenix and Las Vegas grew to major East Coast markets, the value of Columbus as a connecting hub has diminished."

According to Kirby, a number of other factors have also changed in recent years. "Due to the large number of regional jets now deployed by many airlines throughout the east, an abundance of capacity exists relative to demand in the markets served by Columbus today. Additionally, Columbus has seen a much larger decline in profitability during this economic downturn than the rest of our system."

As a result, he said, despite America West's best efforts to improve financial performance, the airline is incurring losses of approximately $25 million per year from its Columbus hub operations.

To put that number into a bit of perspective, CMH had 10 daily mainline departures and 39 daily Express departures when this announcement was made. Generously assuming 150 seats per mainline departure/arrival and the normal 50 seats per express departure, HP would have had approximately 3450 daily seats departing (and the same number arriving) CMH; this works out to roughly 2.5 million seats (combined) arriving and departing CMH annually on HP. Thus, AWA was losing approximately $10 on average for every single seat they were flying to and from CMH.

I would say that an important factor in CMH losing hub status was America West being awarded beyond-perimeter exemptions from DCA; CMH was no longer needed to maintain network connectivity to DCA. Keeping access to LGA wasn't enough to justify the ongoing losses at CMH.

Quoting Nwa747-400 (Thread starter):
does anyone think a LCC could make a go of things with a base of operations at CMH

CMH is already fairly well-served with current and announced LCC service. By winter, WN will have 24 daily departures to 9 different destinations, while B6 will offer service to JFK and BOS. Most of the big markets to and from CMH are well-covered with low-fare service at this point.


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9104 posts, RR: 18
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3731 times:

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 6):
AFAIK, Gates A1, B16, B17, B19, B20 & as of now, C47-52 are the only ones that aren't occupied.

That sure is a lot of open gates, like 10 or 11...

Quoting ScottB (Reply 9):
CMH had 10 daily mainline departures and 39 daily Express departures when this announcement was made. Generously assuming 150 seats per mainline departure/arrival and the normal 50 seats per express departure, HP would have had approximately 3450 daily seats departing (and the same number arriving) CMH; this works out to roughly 2.5 million seats (combined) arriving and departing CMH annually on HP. Thus, AWA was losing approximately $10 on average for every single seat they were flying to and from CMH.

Less than 50 daily flights isn't that big of a deal, but it's still at least a focus city of the sorts. Then again, back in the 70s, early 80s there were hub cities where the flagship carriers only had 50 to 100 dailies arriving and departing...

Still, to have that kind of operation at CMH and to have losses accumulating that much, yeah I would have to say that the HP hub could not stay there. The hubs at PHX and LAS already made sense for the airline, but the Northeast-South and West was already very well-served by already existing LCCs and legacy carriers flying such routes, another legal argument for why other LCCs like F9 doesn't open up an East Coast hub/focus city in places like BWI, DAY, or CAK, or PHL...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineDeltaRules From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3697 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3697 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 10):
Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 6):
AFAIK, Gates A1, B16, B17, B19, B20 & as of now, C47-52 are the only ones that aren't occupied.

That sure is a lot of open gates, like 10 or 11...

At least one of those C gates will be going to B6. There was also a rumor that DL may pick up a couple more in C.

Quoting Nwa747-400 (Reply 7):
So what gates did HP use for their hub?

B16-26 when the hub closed, although it changed through time. There are terminal maps at the bottom of this page:
http://www.psa-history.org/awa/cmh.html

DeltaRules



Let's Kick the Tires & Light the Fires!!
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9104 posts, RR: 18
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3667 times:

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 11):
B16-26 when the hub closed, although it changed through time. There are terminal maps at the bottom of this page:

Wow, so CMH was the connection center for BOS, New York, Hartford, Philadelphia, Baltimore, DC, etc to LAS and PHX, as well as to DFW and ATL, FT Meyers and MCO, and international travel to Toronto. That was a fairly sizeably operation then that HP had at CMH... I could see how it cost them a great deal of money.

For one thing, the fewer hubs, the better - less costs/fees what have you. What did the loads and yields look like on these flights? I am sure that people flying from the Northeast to the Southwest would have prefered a n/s flight to LAS or PHX, as well as Chicago, instead of a stop-over or connection at CMH. I am sure that to most of the NE fliers that did not make any sense...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3654 times:

DL has picked up a lot of the slack left by America West and Southwest has a fairly strong presence. Jet Blue is starting service soon. I think that about covers what they need there.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineDeltaRules From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3697 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3633 times:

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 13):
DL has picked up a lot of the slack left by America West and Southwest has a fairly strong presence.

A lot of the routes operated by RP for America West Express from Columbus are still flown today under the DL Connection banner (CMH-BDL, BOS, LGA, etc).

DeltaRules



Let's Kick the Tires & Light the Fires!!
User currently offlineBluejackets From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 280 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3633 times:

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 13):
DL has picked up a lot of the slack left by America West and Southwest has a fairly strong presence. Jet Blue is starting service soon. I think that about covers what they need there.

That's all you need to know on this subject. Well said.



It's funny when I tell people I love planes and they think I'm weird.
User currently offlineAmwest2United From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 406 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3601 times:
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Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 6):
CO & WN operate from Concourse A

When did WN move to "A" gates???? Must have been recent!



Life is what happens to you while you making plans to live it!
User currently offlineBluejackets From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 280 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3590 times:

Quoting Amwest2United (Reply 16):
When did WN move to "A" gates???? Must have been recent!

June 29.



It's funny when I tell people I love planes and they think I'm weird.
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3576 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 3):
How about the thread "Here comes Skybus?" Someone even stated that they're essentially like the Ryan Air of the US of A. Or was that SWA... I dunno. It was mostly because they liked flying into airports that were miles away from the actuall city, like flying into RFD to serve Chicago, or ISP to serve New York. BUR to serve LA...

...in addition, FTW, Ft Worth's Meachem Field to serve D/FW.



Delete this User
User currently offlineCIDflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2221 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3485 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 5):
That, and isn't the overall population decreasing, with the exception of Chicago? I mean, you have the rust belt there that has been losing ppl to the South and West since the 1970s.

True to an extent, but acutally Columbus is one of the fastest growing cities in the midwest due its economy primarily being based in the financial industry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus%2C_Ohio


User currently offlineFlyCMH From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 2271 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3358 times:

Wow, two referals in one post! It's a shame I got to this thread so late, since everyone has done a fine job answering the original question.

DesertJets did an excellent job of summerizing the factors that ultimately led to the demise of the CMH hub. I don't really think there is any more useful information I can add without being redundant.

As far as the original topic is concerned, I do not think it would be prudent for a low cost carrier to establish a hub or large-scale base of operations in Columbus. I do think the Columbus market can support additional service, however nothing on as large of a scale as a hub operation. Most of the reasons have already been highlighted in previous responses.

In regards to Skybus, I still think the whole concept is bound for failure, despite constant rumblings around here that they are still setting themselves up for a start date early next year. For my take and other good discussion on Skybus, see this thread:

RE: Here Comes SkyBus! (by FlyCMH Mar 22 2006 in Civil Aviation)#ID2673656


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9104 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3313 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 18):
...in addition, FTW, Ft Worth's Meachem Field to serve D/FW.

Ah, yeah, how about those poor folks some 20 or 30 miles away in Dallas and places South and East of there???

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 19):
True to an extent, but acutally Columbus is one of the fastest growing cities in the midwest due its economy primarily being based in the financial industry

Okay, then Chicago and Columbus, OH are the only growing cities pretty much in the Midwest. Is Chicago growing? I imagine it would be...

I wonder how long before Columbus leapfrogs Pittsburgh in MSA population; it already has more than double the city core population... I believe that the City also extends beyond Franklin County into a couple of surrounding other counties, so the square mileage should be huge... I keep saying that da burgh should do the same thing: annex some of those boroughs into the city. If they don't get the entire county with the city, they should add all of the surrounding boroughs and leave the townships be...
Ok, enough of that heh  Smile

I didn't realize that Columbus was that much bigger than Cleveland. I always thought it was Cleveland that was the state's largest. So it looks like it's Columbus, then Cleveland, then Cincinnati.



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineFlyCMH From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 2271 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3294 times:

Quote:
I didn't realize that Columbus was that much bigger than Cleveland. I always thought it was Cleveland that was the state's largest. So it looks like it's Columbus, then Cleveland, then Cincinnati.

Only the City of Columbus proper is larger than Cleveland. Cleveland's metropolitan area, which is a far better indicator of the level of air service that a region can support, is larger. The exact numbers are always contested, since different methods of tallying population statistics are used, but the Columbus metro population stand at roughly 1.7-1.9 million, whereas Cleveland's is roughly 2.3-2.4 million, not including Akron. With Akron, I believe the metro population is around 3.1 million.


User currently offlinePanaman From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3246 times:

Being a long time grad from OSU, and graduating from a local high school, but no longer living in Columbus,(although I am here in Columbus as we speak) I can say that yes Columbus could support the air travel need. But the airline would have to offer something (I.E rock bottom fares) to cities, I mean real large cities, Miami, Orlando, NYC, Boston, LA, San Fran, Seattle. And offering nonstop flights to those cities. Something around $75-100 dollars round trip (yes I know not really possible right now)

The airline would have to draw persons from all over Ohio I mean all over! North, South, East, and West. Lots of ads would have to go out, and even more ads in other cities around Ohio would have to display really low air fares to cities throughout the country. But just maybe we could do it.



Sorry I moved from SXM, looking for a new house on Anguilla now!
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9104 posts, RR: 18
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3217 times:

Quoting Panaman (Reply 23):

Yeah, that would be impossible right now, but I suppose that B6 might expand CMH given the right timing and what have you. I am sure that CMH-MCO/Tampa/FLL/OAK/LGB might happen in the long run. Actually dash LGB; they don't have the available slots... I said the same thing regarding any PIT expansion and got that response for LGB... CMH should be a good city for B6.



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineBluejackets From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 280 posts, RR: 3
Reply 25, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3196 times:

Quoting FlyCMH (Reply 20):
Wow, two referals in one post!

Watch that ego, pal!



It's funny when I tell people I love planes and they think I'm weird.
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