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Is DL Close To Buying The E190?  
User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 972 posts, RR: 3
Posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4224 times:

The prototype Embraer 190 is in Atlanta, parked on the northside of the airport across the street from Delta's headquarters.


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The aircraft arrived yesterday, August 8th, and was toured by executives while on the ground. It also left on a demonstration flight.

Delta has been looking at a 100 passenger capacity aircraft. With the E190 in Atlanta, could this mean that DL is close to signing on order? SkyWest is going to start CRJ900 service in a 76 seat configuration. Could DL bring the 190 into the mainline fleet in a 94 seat, dual class configuration?

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4951 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4203 times:
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I'm sure DL is looking at it as they need a 732 replacement; however, they cannot initiate any new aircraft orders while they're still in Ch.11. Any order will have to come at the earliest - next spring/summer when they plan to exit BK.

User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3012 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4203 times:

Don't they fly the E170 already?

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20783 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4189 times:

Quite possibly the same plane that was in Honolulu a few days ago to show around to Aloha. A demonstration is a demonstration. I wouldn't make it out to be that an order is imminent.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4951 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4174 times:
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Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 2):
Don't they fly the E170 already?

Shuttle America operates the E170s for them on quite a few routes already...


User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 972 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4141 times:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 1):
however, they cannot initiate any new aircraft orders while they're still in Ch.11. Any order will have to come at the earliest - next spring/summer when they plan to exit BK.

Can they not order an aircraft while still in bankruptcy proceedings if the get court approval? DL recently agreed to lease the former TW/AA 757s contingent on court approval.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
Quite possibly the same plane that was in Honolulu a few days ago to show around to Aloha. A demonstration is a demonstration. I wouldn't make it out to be that an order is imminent.

I imagine Embraer only demonstrates with the actual aircraft if they're fairly confident of an order. Also (which supports your point as well), this is the second time Embraer has brought an E-jet to Atlanta...apparently the first time DL did not order. Would Embraer go through the motions again unless DL said they were very interested?


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
Quite possibly the same plane that was in Honolulu a few days ago to show around to Aloha. A demonstration is a demonstration. I wouldn't make it out to be that an order is imminent.

It was in MSP 2 weeks ago. Think of it as a new car showroom, where people can go kick the tires.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8690 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

It either this, the 195, or a CR9 to replace te 732's. I hope they buy the 195. It would look great in DL's livery.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20783 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4088 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 6):
Think of it as a new car showroom, where people can go kick the tires.

 checkmark 

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 7):
It would look great in DL's livery.

Hopefully that wasn't the reason AA bought Shorts 360s for Eagle flights in the 80's.  Wink



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2177 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4015 times:

First off DL won't buy it as the last thing they need is a scope argument down in that range right now....

However...Shuttle America may pick them up and fly for DL with them.

But not DL and DALPA...no legacy wants a scope argument over bringing sub 100 seat birds into house if they already have an agreement to farm them out. The intent is to take flying away from the high price DALPA...not add to it.


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4760 posts, RR: 44
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4004 times:

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 9):
First off DL won't buy it as the last thing they need is a scope argument down in that range right now....

However...Shuttle America may pick them up and fly for DL with them.

But not DL and DALPA...no legacy wants a scope argument over bringing sub 100 seat birds into house if they already have an agreement to farm them out. The intent is to take flying away from the high price DALPA...not add to it.

Weren't 190s included in the latest TA???



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 972 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4004 times:

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 9):
First off DL won't buy it as the last thing they need is a scope argument down in that range right now....

However...Shuttle America may pick them up and fly for DL with them.

But not DL and DALPA...no legacy wants a scope argument over bringing sub 100 seat birds into house if they already have an agreement to farm them out. The intent is to take flying away from the high price DALPA...not add to it.

Although I see your point, what is the scope clause at DL specifically? Isn't it in the 70-something seat range? Doesn't everything above that have to be flown by DL mainline?

Don't you think DL could negotiate a pay rate for a 90-something seat aircraft with DALPA, if DL promised something in return (such as getting rid of a 50 seater for every E190 brought to mainline)?


User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6557 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3861 times:

I'm kind of dissapointed DL didn't order the 717.  Sad


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4951 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3852 times:
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Quoting LawnDart (Reply 11):
Don't you think DL could negotiate a pay rate for a 90-something seat aircraft with DALPA,

The E190 pay rates were negotiated with DALPA (for mainline flying) and are part of the TA ratified this spring.

[Edited 2006-08-09 22:35:21]

User currently offlineBucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3774 times:

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 9):
First off DL won't buy it as the last thing they need is a scope argument down in that range right now

there is no argument on scope. 76 seats is the limit on outsourcing, and 86,000 pound in MTOW. That allows the company to outsource the CRJ-700/705/900, and the EMB-170/175. Anything bigger is flown by the mainline and has payrates already established should we buy some.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3743 times:

DL can accept their current contracts including to buy aircraft from Boeing on existing orders (which includes the ability to change the types of aircraft) but they cannot initiate a new order. It's not a question of just the court's approval. An investment of the size that is necessary to order a new fleet of aircraft has to be done after the company is out of BK.

DL has no choice but to order the 190 or else obtain a large number of 170s to be operated by its contract carriers. They cannot continue to put Bombardier's RJs on long routes. Even the 705 is not a decent enough aircraft inside to satisfy passenger demands.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3743 times:

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 14):
There is no argument on scope. 76 seats is the limit on outsourcing, and 86,000 pound in MTOW. That allows the company to outsource the CRJ-700/705/900, and the EMB-170/175. Anything bigger is flown by the mainline and has payrates already established should we buy some.

Very good point. I'm certain that DL has an acceptable agreement with DALPA for rates on the EMB-190/195, which is why they are looking at it. DL is looking very much like they will exit Chapter 11 within 4-8 months, so planning a new a/c procurement is something they will be looking at. DL Connection carrier Shuttle America has been operating the EMB-170 very successfully, and it is possible for SkyWest and ASA to pick up some EMB-170/175s very soon since SkyWest CEO Jerry Atkin has indicated he would like to go that direction with future procurements.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineOkie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3639 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 15):
DL can accept their current contracts including to buy aircraft from Boeing on existing orders (which includes the ability to change the types of aircraft) but they cannot initiate a new order.

Thats not exactly true. With the court approval, Delta can enter into any contract they want.

Getting financing is another issue, but with court approval Delta could do it.

[Edited 2006-08-10 00:50:16]

User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1773 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3619 times:
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Quoting Panamair (Reply 1):
I'm sure DL is looking at it as they need a 732 replacement; however, they cannot initiate any new aircraft orders while they're still in Ch.11. Any order will have to come at the earliest - next spring/summer when they plan to exit BK.

Note also something important ... in order to get an order in place as soon as possible after exitting the BK process (and unless oil kills them, there doesn't seem to be much doubt they will exit) they need to start the wheels in motion now ...

Ideally they'd want everything in place except for the signatures.

- litz


User currently offlineJkudall From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3561 times:

Quoting LawnDart (Thread starter):
SkyWest is going to start CRJ900 service in a 76 seat configuration.

Small correction...

They will initially be configured for 70 pax (10 F 60 Y).


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3497 times:

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 17):
Thats not exactly true. With the court approval, Delta can enter into any contract they want.

Technically, yes. Practically, no. DL mgmt and the BK court has one purpose - to maximize the value of the amount DL's creditors receive from the estate. No creditors committee is going to allow DL or any other company to enter into a multi-billion dollar contract while they are in bankruptcy.


User currently offlineOkie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3438 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 20):
No creditors committee is going to allow DL or any other company to enter into a multi-billion dollar contract while they are in bankruptcy

I agree, not likely, though technically possible. However, if the case can be made that new airplanes will allow Delta to pay the creditors more of their claim, then it could be approved.


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