The aircraft arrived yesterday, August 8th, and was toured by executives while on the ground. It also left on a demonstration flight.
Delta has been looking at a 100 passenger capacity aircraft. With the E190 in Atlanta, could this mean that DL is close to signing on order? SkyWest is going to start CRJ900 service in a 76 seat configuration. Could DL bring the 190 into the mainline fleet in a 94 seat, dual class configuration?
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4590 posts, RR: 26 Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2576 times:
I'm sure DL is looking at it as they need a 732 replacement; however, they cannot initiate any new aircraft orders while they're still in Ch.11. Any order will have to come at the earliest - next spring/summer when they plan to exit BK.
JetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2785 posts, RR: 15 Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2576 times:
Don't they fly the E170 already?
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AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18889 posts, RR: 64 Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2562 times:
Quite possibly the same plane that was in Honolulu a few days ago to show around to Aloha. A demonstration is a demonstration. I wouldn't make it out to be that an order is imminent.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4590 posts, RR: 26 Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2547 times:
LawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 968 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2514 times:
Quoting Panamair (Reply 1): however, they cannot initiate any new aircraft orders while they're still in Ch.11. Any order will have to come at the earliest - next spring/summer when they plan to exit BK.
Can they not order an aircraft while still in bankruptcy proceedings if the get court approval? DL recently agreed to lease the former TW/AA 757s contingent on court approval.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3): Quite possibly the same plane that was in Honolulu a few days ago to show around to Aloha. A demonstration is a demonstration. I wouldn't make it out to be that an order is imminent.
I imagine Embraer only demonstrates with the actual aircraft if they're fairly confident of an order. Also (which supports your point as well), this is the second time Embraer has brought an E-jet to Atlanta...apparently the first time DL did not order. Would Embraer go through the motions again unless DL said they were very interested?
Bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5983 posts, RR: 9 Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2496 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3): Quite possibly the same plane that was in Honolulu a few days ago to show around to Aloha. A demonstration is a demonstration. I wouldn't make it out to be that an order is imminent.
It was in MSP 2 weeks ago. Think of it as a new car showroom, where people can go kick the tires.
MCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8553 posts, RR: 14 Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2496 times:
It either this, the 195, or a CR9 to replace te 732's. I hope they buy the 195. It would look great in DL's livery.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18889 posts, RR: 64 Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2461 times:
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 6): Think of it as a new car showroom, where people can go kick the tires.
Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 7): It would look great in DL's livery.
Hopefully that wasn't the reason AA bought Shorts 360s for Eagle flights in the 80's.
Hiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2118 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2388 times:
First off DL won't buy it as the last thing they need is a scope argument down in that range right now....
However...Shuttle America may pick them up and fly for DL with them.
But not DL and DALPA...no legacy wants a scope argument over bringing sub 100 seat birds into house if they already have an agreement to farm them out. The intent is to take flying away from the high price DALPA...not add to it.
Alitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4659 posts, RR: 45 Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2377 times:
Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 9): First off DL won't buy it as the last thing they need is a scope argument down in that range right now....
However...Shuttle America may pick them up and fly for DL with them.
But not DL and DALPA...no legacy wants a scope argument over bringing sub 100 seat birds into house if they already have an agreement to farm them out. The intent is to take flying away from the high price DALPA...not add to it.
LawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 968 posts, RR: 4 Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2377 times:
Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 9): First off DL won't buy it as the last thing they need is a scope argument down in that range right now....
However...Shuttle America may pick them up and fly for DL with them.
But not DL and DALPA...no legacy wants a scope argument over bringing sub 100 seat birds into house if they already have an agreement to farm them out. The intent is to take flying away from the high price DALPA...not add to it.
Although I see your point, what is the scope clause at DL specifically? Isn't it in the 70-something seat range? Doesn't everything above that have to be flown by DL mainline?
Don't you think DL could negotiate a pay rate for a 90-something seat aircraft with DALPA, if DL promised something in return (such as getting rid of a 50 seater for every E190 brought to mainline)?
727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5723 posts, RR: 20 Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2234 times:
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4590 posts, RR: 26 Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2225 times:
Quoting LawnDart (Reply 11): Don't you think DL could negotiate a pay rate for a 90-something seat aircraft with DALPA,
The E190 pay rates were negotiated with DALPA (for mainline flying) and are part of the TA ratified this spring.
Bucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1028 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2147 times:
Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 9): First off DL won't buy it as the last thing they need is a scope argument down in that range right now
there is no argument on scope. 76 seats is the limit on outsourcing, and 86,000 pound in MTOW. That allows the company to outsource the CRJ-700/705/900, and the EMB-170/175. Anything bigger is flown by the mainline and has payrates already established should we buy some.
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2116 times:
DL can accept their current contracts including to buy aircraft from Boeing on existing orders (which includes the ability to change the types of aircraft) but they cannot initiate a new order. It's not a question of just the court's approval. An investment of the size that is necessary to order a new fleet of aircraft has to be done after the company is out of BK.
DL has no choice but to order the 190 or else obtain a large number of 170s to be operated by its contract carriers. They cannot continue to put Bombardier's RJs on long routes. Even the 705 is not a decent enough aircraft inside to satisfy passenger demands.
SLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 3861 posts, RR: 11 Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2116 times:
Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 14): There is no argument on scope. 76 seats is the limit on outsourcing, and 86,000 pound in MTOW. That allows the company to outsource the CRJ-700/705/900, and the EMB-170/175. Anything bigger is flown by the mainline and has payrates already established should we buy some.
Very good point. I'm certain that DL has an acceptable agreement with DALPA for rates on the EMB-190/195, which is why they are looking at it. DL is looking very much like they will exit Chapter 11 within 4-8 months, so planning a new a/c procurement is something they will be looking at. DL Connection carrier Shuttle America has been operating the EMB-170 very successfully, and it is possible for SkyWest and ASA to pick up some EMB-170/175s very soon since SkyWest CEO Jerry Atkin has indicated he would like to go that direction with future procurements.
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Okie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 427 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2012 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 15): DL can accept their current contracts including to buy aircraft from Boeing on existing orders (which includes the ability to change the types of aircraft) but they cannot initiate a new order.
Thats not exactly true. With the court approval, Delta can enter into any contract they want.
Getting financing is another issue, but with court approval Delta could do it.
Litz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1745 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1992 times:
Quoting Panamair (Reply 1): I'm sure DL is looking at it as they need a 732 replacement; however, they cannot initiate any new aircraft orders while they're still in Ch.11. Any order will have to come at the earliest - next spring/summer when they plan to exit BK.
Note also something important ... in order to get an order in place as soon as possible after exitting the BK process (and unless oil kills them, there doesn't seem to be much doubt they will exit) they need to start the wheels in motion now ...
Ideally they'd want everything in place except for the signatures.
Jkudall From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 615 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1934 times:
Quoting LawnDart (Thread starter): SkyWest is going to start CRJ900 service in a 76 seat configuration.
Small correction...
They will initially be configured for 70 pax (10 F 60 Y).
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1870 times:
Quoting Okie73 (Reply 17): Thats not exactly true. With the court approval, Delta can enter into any contract they want.
Technically, yes. Practically, no. DL mgmt and the BK court has one purpose - to maximize the value of the amount DL's creditors receive from the estate. No creditors committee is going to allow DL or any other company to enter into a multi-billion dollar contract while they are in bankruptcy.
Okie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 427 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1811 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 20): No creditors committee is going to allow DL or any other company to enter into a multi-billion dollar contract while they are in bankruptcy
I agree, not likely, though technically possible. However, if the case can be made that new airplanes will allow Delta to pay the creditors more of their claim, then it could be approved.
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