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Biz Week Reports On UA/CO Merger Buzz  
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6437 posts, RR: 34
Posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 13766 times:

Latest issue of Business Week (Aug 21) has a short article that comments on the possible merger buzz. This has been discussed before but the buzz is not going away. Hopefully there will be a merger, and that there will be other consolidations in the airline industry just as has occured in almost every other major industry... not just domestically but internationally as well. Tilton has said several times that there has to be industry consolidation and CO seems to be interested...

"One money manager who owns UAL shares, has close ties with executives, and asked not to be named, says Continental has not given up."

United And Continental?
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_34/b3998062.htm

Some See a United Airlines-Continental Pas de Deux
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/?p=6272&excamp=sblink1


Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
207 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2522 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13754 times:

Bring it! I'd love to see a UA-CO merger. I'm sure both of us (so far) will get flamed because it's been beaten to death in countless threads!


777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineCoyoteguy From Mexico, joined Oct 2001, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13715 times:

Unitinental? or Contited?

User currently offlineERAUgrad02 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13715 times:

I wonder if they would stay seperate airlines. this is a huge merge if its true. and equipment doesnt match at all.


Desmond MacRae in ILM
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13697 times:

I'm sure investors will be happy to note that UA and CO had the lowest and next to lowest operating profit margins reported by the big six airlines in the most recent quarter.

User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13676 times:

Another week, another UA/CO rumor.

At least Tilton and Bethune weren't playing golf this week.


User currently offlineN174UA From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13676 times:

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 3):
I wonder if they would stay seperate airlines. this is a huge merge if its true. and equipment doesnt match at all.

Just seeing some retro paint jobs for a merged UA/CO would be awesome. Burnt meatball on the T7! Ha!


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9817 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13676 times:

Quoting Coyoteguy (Reply 2):
Unitinental? or Contited?

Haha, the name of course would be United. Continental has done a lot to change its image, but the name Continental use to mean horrible things in the early to mid 1990s before Gordon Bethune came in and cleaned up the act and put customer service first with his famous quote "you can make a pizza so cheap that no one will buy it". Overall United is the bigger airline with more brand recognition throughout the country and world. United doesn't have that bad of a reputation either except for financial instability.

[Edited 2006-08-11 22:22:18]


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6647 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13654 times:

A horrible idea of a merger. The ONLY merger that would make real sense is a Delta/Continental merger. THATS IT!


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2522 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13631 times:

Quoting Coyoteguy (Reply 2):
Unitinental? or Contited?

More like "Contenited"!

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 3):
I wonder if they would stay seperate airlines. this is a huge merge if its true. and equipment doesnt match at all.

They could make it work provided UA phased out its Airbus fleet (that would take a while) or used it only on routes in which UA maintenance personnel were already in place. Who knows how much longer UA plans to hold onto its 744s?


777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2522 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13561 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 8):
A horrible idea of a merger. The ONLY merger that would make real sense is a Delta/Continental merger. THATS IT!

What are you talking about?! Even as a DL fan, you'd have to admit that it would make little or no sense at all. Heavy European presence, yes, but no Asian presence?! No chance.

I still think that UA's decision to pawn off its JFK-LHR slot is a prelude to a UA-CO merger...

777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineMastaHanky From United States of America, joined May 2006, 264 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13550 times:

Quoting 777fan (Reply 10):
What are you talking about?! Even as a DL fan, you'd have to admit that it would make little or no sense at all. Heavy European presence, yes, but no Asian presence?! No chance.

 checkmark 

Despite vastly radical fleets, corporate culture and service levels, I think NW brings much more to the table than CO would.


User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13550 times:

I saw this on CNBC. I have to say I'm surprised - but then again, a US/HP merger surprised me too.

Let's see.

jetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5527 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13507 times:

The bottom line to all this is speculation. We can speculate all we want about it, cast our opinions on whether this is good or not and the list grows.

If it is in the works, it is way beyond our control.

I have been with CO since 1987 and have learned, from the get go, to sit back, relax and enjoy the ride. It's all any of us can really do.



You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13507 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 8):
A horrible idea of a merger. The ONLY merger that would make real sense is a Delta/Continental merger. THATS IT!

That makes absolutely no sense at all, and neither party stands to gain a thing from such a scenario. Still no large Asian presence. Still weak in the Western US. Still no LHR. No thanks.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6647 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13507 times:

Quoting MastaHanky (Reply 11):
Despite vastly radical fleets, corporate culture and service levels, I think NW brings much more to the table than CO would.

Many of you think that fleets are a minor issue when a merger occurs. It is a VERY major issue. Delta and Northwest have vastly different fleets, as well as corporate structures. A Delta-Continental merger together would allow expansion internationally with the combined fleet, including more 777s. With Delta's upcoming 777-200LRs, they could rival Northwest's presence in Asia.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDALelite From Switzerland, joined Jun 2000, 1770 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13507 times:

Give me a break.

DALelite



They loved to fly and it showed..
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11973 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13507 times:

Well, I suppose I'll join in on thse shameless predictions ...

Personally, I think it would be absolutely horrific for these two companies to merge. United has its own problems -- it is limping along out of bankruptcy, trying to nail down its identity in the new global marketplace, and desperately trying to turn a reliable, sustainable, strong profit. Continental, on the other hand, is going strong out of the gate and now (with American) is one of the strongest and best-run U.S. legacy carriers. Why on earth Continental would ever want to merge with the chaotic mess that is United.

However, if this were to happen, I tend to think that the United name would be kept over the Continental name. Despite Continental being a fairly globally recognized brand, I just have to think that United would be the name that survives. I just would be surprised if they went with Continental, but alas, I could be wrong.

One possible knock-on effect of a possible Continental-United tie-up: it could push American to actually spend some of its cash. While I don't think this will lead to a situation like after the United-USAirways merger was announced in May 2000, when basically everyone else scrambled to merge. What I think this could lead to, however, is for American to bite the bullet and really go after buying Northwest's Asia rights. Now, this is of course dependant on Northwest's state at this hypothetical point, including whether it still even exists, but American -- if given the opportunity -- may be driven to get a major foothold in Asia in order to compete with a hypothetically merged United-Continental, which would be a truly global airline, with dense coverage of Asia, Europe and Latin America.


User currently offlineKDCA From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13507 times:

Wow, this would truly be an amazin route structure if they were able to pull off the merger succesfully.

Yes we all understand that there are problems with fleet structure, but think about it: the combined airline would only have five different pilot groups, although a more payscales. 744, 772, 767/757, A320/19, 737. Not too bad, UA already has all of these types in there structure.

Yes there are engine differences, but if you kept the CO 757s in EWR for Europe service and the UA 757s elsewhere wouldn't seem to be that big of a deal.

I think CLE would get pulled down do a focus opp, but I think the biggest question mark would become IAD. As EWR is a better base for European opps, what do you all think would happen to IAD, especially with WN setting up shop. Obviously, there would no longer be a need for a US codeshare.


User currently offlineNwa747-400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1337 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13452 times:

PLEASE NO! Why would CO want to ruin a good thing??!!

User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2522 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13441 times:

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 14):
That makes absolutely no sense at all, and neither party stands to gain a thing from such a scenario. Still no large Asian presence. Still weak in the Western US. Still no LHR. No thanks.



Quoting 777fan (Reply 10):
What are you talking about?! Even as a DL fan, you'd have to admit that it would make little or no sense at all. Heavy European presence, yes, but no Asian presence?! No chance.

Hey, thanks for stealing my thunder!

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 15):
With Delta's upcoming 777-200LRs, they could rival Northwest's presence in Asia.

How? Just cuz you have the planes, doesn't mean you automatically get the routes!

Quoting Commavia (Reply 17):
What I think this could lead to, however, is for American to bite the bullet and really go after buying Northwest's Asia rights.

While I agree with you, I just don't see this happening because Asia is undoubtedly NW's strength - their name is derived from Northwest Orient.
What would NW have without its Asian base of ops?!

777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6647 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13441 times:

Quoting Nwa747-400 (Reply 19):
PLEASE NO! Why would CO want to ruin a good thing??!!

A Delta-Northwest merger would REALLY ruin a good thing. The fleets are almost complete opposites, and Northwest doesn't offer IFE on domestic flights except Hawaii. With whos'e aircraft are you going to use for Asia - Delta's or Northwest's? The fleet would have to be trimmed, and as you remove aircraft from the fleet, there is a loss in other routes.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineMastaHanky From United States of America, joined May 2006, 264 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13376 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 15):
Many of you think that fleets are a minor issue when a merger occurs. It is a VERY major issue.

Actually, I think many of you think fleets are a major issue when it's a minor issue.

Whatever two companies decide to merge should continue running their existing fleets until it is time for them to be retired, and THEN they can worry about ordering a replacement which will cover both companies. Trying to prematurely usher fleet consolidation is just a waste of time and money.

Just as an example, a DL-NW merger should continue to run their seperate 737 and A320 fleets. When the aircraft start approaching retirement age, then you can worry about a replacement to cover both of them.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6647 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13349 times:

Quoting MastaHanky (Reply 22):
Just as an example, a DL-NW merger should continue to run their seperate 737 and A320 fleets. When the aircraft start approaching retirement age, then you can worry about a replacement to cover both of them.

What about Delta's 767 and 777 fleet compared with Northwest's A330 fleet. Delta operates the largest 767 fleet in the world, and Northwest's A330 fleet doesn't compare. Delta operates 59 767-300ERs on international routes, and will add 8 767-400ERs to the international fleet. Northwest's A330 fleet is small compared to that. There is a big age difference in Delta's 767-300ER fleet and Northwest's A330 fleet, and due to age, the 767-300ERs will be retired first. Also, Delta operates many non-ER 767-300s and 767-400ERs on domestic routes, which are vital to Delta's domestic operations.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineMastaHanky From United States of America, joined May 2006, 264 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13304 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 23):
What about Delta's 767 and 777 fleet compared with Northwest's A330 fleet. Delta operates the largest 767 fleet in the world, and Northwest's A330 fleet doesn't compare. Delta operates 59 767-300ERs on international routes, and will add 8 767-400ERs to the international fleet. Northwest's A330 fleet is small compared to that. There is a big age difference in Delta's 767-300ER fleet and Northwest's A330 fleet, and due to age, the 767-300ERs will be retired first. Also, Delta operates many non-ER 767-300s and 767-400ERs on domestic routes, which are vital to Delta's domestic operations.

Like I say, you take your time with the fleet consolidation and look down the road. The 767-300ERs are being retired first? Line up some 787s. Keep the A330s running until they're due for a D-check, then bring in some more 787s to replace them. Rushing to get rid of the A330s because they're not compatible with the 767 is not going to be productive, especially when you're already tight on long-haul aircraft.

EDIT: I like how I managed to change this from a UA-CO merger discussion to a DL-NW one in such a short time. Oops!  embarrassed 

[Edited 2006-08-11 23:48:51]

25 Post contains images Sllevin : If it happens the new airline would be known as "Pan Am." Steve
26 ElmoTheHobo : And how would that be any better? An effective airline merger combines companies with differing route networks, a la Delta/Western or some kind of im
27 CO767FA : Right, and if that were true, United would be Pan Am today. Now that is a name I could live with.
28 777fan : As much as the name PanAm evokes a nostalgic feeling, I think it's sort of outdated. "Pan American" suggests that the airline serves the Americas only
29 BigGSFO : Here's an interesting twist to this manic thread: Without studying the fine points of Bermuda 2, I beleive if UA buys CO, then Newark-London can shift
30 Post contains images Sllevin : Don't get me wrong on the use of Pan Am; first off, I just can't believe this merger will happen (but I could be wrong), and secondly, it seems like i
31 Antoniemey : As much as I think this merger is a hellspawn that should never happen... you people ARE ignoring the possible names of ContinentalUnited or UnitedCon
32 SP90 : If this merger takes place, which airline alliance will they end up in? Star Alliance or Skyteam?
33 Mariner : It is fairly meaningless to anyone outside the US. cheers mariner
34 RoseFlyer : This is a big what if situation, but I think that a merged UA-CO would keep the United name since it is bigger and more recognized and keep the Unite
35 Copter808 : Ah yes, but what has the Continental name meant since Bethune? And what has UA meant during the last 5 years?
36 Dartland : My thoughts: 1) I agree that fleet concerns are not a big deal. When you have 2 large fleets, making 1 super-large fleets hardly conveys an advantage
37 777fan : I agree but that's just the way it is! I think one's name says a lot about what they're about. DL is big internationally, but their roots are in the
38 Post contains images Amazonphil : It was bowling this week!
39 Post contains images MastaHanky : Agreed on all of the above. I even think the DOJ wouldn't have much of an issue with it, especially with the situation the air carriers have been in
40 JetBlueAUS : My thoughts exactly. Continental is a great airline, and I always enjoy my flights with them. I have the exact opposite experience when I fly UA. IMO
41 Post contains images GoCOgo : To reiterate some of what was said above, Bermuda II only specifies that there are only 2 US LHR carriers. UA and AA's authorities come from Pan Am a
42 ThePRGuy : If this indeed did happen, the brand thing would cause a few problems No doubt there would be hybrid liveries with titles such as 'United/Continental
43 Post contains images Mariner : Well - yes and no. Obviously "British" and "Singapore" and "American" are extremely evocative of something specific. I guess "Virgin" is, too, but of
44 Post contains images N174UA : Don't forget having to pass muster with the EU... DG-Comp is the short name for the division in Brussels that overlooks trans-border (and even contin
45 Socalfive : Continental BY FAR has the better name in today's market. The Lorenzo years Continental suffered, but before and since it's always been top-shelf. It
46 Ualcsr : Well, if you name it by its respective codes, you could come up with "UACO", and depending on your pronounciation, call it "waco" or "whacko". Hmmm. A
47 IAHFLYR : WORK HARD, FLY RIGHT! Let the dream continue!!! That means no merger in my heart, it is all CO
48 Mariner : But what if you are wrong? What if NW does make it? There will still be one too many legacy carriers out there. cheers mariner
49 KDCA : True, but they seem to be the biggest "what if" at this point in time with their ongoing labor issues. Mariner, you infer that someone will fall and
50 N174UA : For now. However, the wildcard here (and for CO as well) is that their recent runup in transatlantic expansion leaves them more exposed when demand t
51 Post contains images Mariner : No, sorry, I was responding to Socal's statement that the US has one legacy carrier too many, and that NWA would fail. I don't think that will happen
52 MasseyBrown : If CO had expanded with three dozen new widebodies, I might agree with you. Those 757s, however, could easily be absorbed on domestic routes, allowin
53 N174UA : My comment was more directed at DL, and you seem to have a better grasp of CO's fleet plans than I do. My only concern though, would be if CO weren't
54 Jamake1 : I believe that RoseFlyer's postings represent the most likely outcome if such a scenario were to play out. In spite of what all of you CO loyalists ma
55 MastaHanky : Here's your answer right here: Over-aggressive fleet consolidation will cost an airline more than they'd save in maintenance and materials. Unfortuna
56 Jamake1 : Exactly. $30 billion in revenue...now that's "synergy."
57 MasseyBrown : A very legitimate concern; but CO since the mid-90's has systematically starved their system for aircraft. CO probably has a list of a couple dozen p
58 ElmoTheHobo : Us talking about this merger really is just fanciful (this is A.net I realize). But this merger doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell. This would c
59 Planemaker : The question is not really whether it is 50% or 40% bigger but what market share it would have. And even at that, big deal! Take a look around at eve
60 ORDTerminal1 : Doesn't anybody think that a Delta-United merger would be alot better? Let's break it down.... Excluding Airbii (pl? haha) and those Douglas jets of D
61 F14ATomcat : Actually I've heard from inside sources that the name would be Con Air. At least half to a dozen convicts would be on all flights at all times to disc
62 Nyskymasters : I am wondering, EWRCabincrew, what did you do for Continental before you became a flight attendant? If you are who I think you are you haven't been a
63 EXAAUADL : Why? Do you want to pay higher fares? You might be right. Dont forget they are dropping JFK-NRT as well I think that would be pushing it from a DOJ s
64 Socalfive : If we do not learn from History, we are doomed to repeat it. Currently, there is one too many legacy carriers in this market. The LCCs have and are g
65 Post contains images AvConsultant : DL will never rival NW in Asia unless they merge with them. NW is dominate in Asia with exclusive route authority. Besides DL was by passed on China
66 MastaHanky : I'm not denying it's a huge undertaking, of course it is. And it's also very expensive. What I'm saying is that if you have (for example), a fleet of
67 ARGinLON : LHR. Nothing else.
68 Eyeonthesky17 : Regardless if it were CO or DL (although CO would be better), I think the timing of the Business Week article is rather interesting. With UA having ju
69 BigGSFO : Agreed and even the Pacific routes are probably not worth as much as many people would think. Aside from China authority and Nartia slots, what is le
70 Jamake1 : AND FRA. The power of the alliance with Lufthansa is a significant revenue-generator for United...
71 Planemaker : Why? Do you want a dysfunctional industry that will never be able to pay back the cost of invested capital?
72 CO767FA : Let's have reliable sources for this statement; please provide them. Of course you do....how long have you been with UA? Any city could be considered
73 Supa7E7 : CO could purchase UA (perhaps for free, arranged by the I-banks) and run the show from IAH. I do not see UA as stable right now. It is fodder for merg
74 FlyDreamliner : They wouldn't stay seperate airlines, I don't think. It just wouldn't make as much sense as completely integrating would - at least in cutting costs
75 Jamake1 : CO767FA: Why are you personalizing it? It has nothing to do with whether or not I work for United. It has to do with marketing and branding. United is
76 Post contains images Mariner : It may be, but my point is that there is too much money sloshing around out there for NW to liquidate. I tended to agree with Colleen Barrett at Sout
77 EWRCabincrew : I just instant messaged you. For all others, I have been with CO since July 1, 1987. I graduated FA training June 29, 1987, FA training class 8717. A
78 MasseyBrown : Let me save you the trouble. 2nd quarter revenues for Transatlantic services: CO - $570 million UA - $510 million Numbers taken from respective compa
79 Nyskymasters : I just IM'd you back. For everybody else, I realize that my question to EWRCabincrew was poorly worded. I did not mean to imply anything. I just had
80 TripleP : Sorry, but Houston isn't a second tier hub city. It's busier than EWR, SFO, NRT and IAD as well as its status as one of the USA's largest concentrati
81 MalpensaSFO : While Houston may be busier, it is not as globally important as New York metro, Bay Area, or Tokyo airports. F500 or not San Francisco, New York, and
82 777fan : I think that in light of the way the industry is performing as a whole, the US gov realizes that airlines may have to merge to survive in the long ru
83 MalpensaSFO : Over a billion dollars in revenuw for one airline, in one area of their combined networks. Who would complain? Combined Routes for Europe: EWR-LGW EW
84 Planemaker : Eventually the pax airline industry will have to catch up with the rest of the business world. Look at the courier/package express side of the indust
85 777fan : You know, I could totally see this happening, particularly if UA-CO were to happen. It would give the new airline a solid (balanced) international pr
86 CO767FA : While I agree that the consolidation is a stone's throw away, I don't see the combination keeping the UA name. IF the combination were NW/UA or UA/DL
87 777fan : I think that the PA and TWA names weren't used because American (plain and simply) trumps all in terms of recognition; it suggests that it's the airl
88 Dutchjet : I honestly think that there are a handful of financial analysts from the Wall Street investment houses that keep putting these merger rumors out into
89 Jamake1 : You're obviously letting your emotions get in the way of more rational thought. GUM is a very small island in Micronesia that does not have anywhere
90 CO767FA : Are you possibly projecting? You still have yet to address why the names Pan Am and TWA aren't in play today. UA didn't have any "brand recognition",
91 Jamake1 : I am not going to debate you. Talk to a branding consultant. Talk to ya later...
92 KDCA : Let's go merger crazy for a minute: What if the US industry shook out like this in the long run: UA+CO: United Airlines: EWR, IAD (focus), CLE (focus)
93 MalpensaSFO : Well the American Airlines name did nothing at all for American Airlines failed success twice in Osaka, and the single failures of Stockholm, Milan,
94 ORDTerminal1 : You forgot PHL...and there is talk that LAS may become a focus city.
95 777STL : Oh, please. Those routes didn't fail because they were run by an airline named "American".
96 MalpensaSFO : Please re-read the statement that you are eluding to. In that statement I referred to the name "American", as not being a sure way to be a success. A
97 777STL : Seems to be what you're insinuating. Airline routes fail all the time, for a myriad of different reasons. The name on the side of the plane not being
98 MalpensaSFO : There was not an insinuation, sorry if it would appear there was! That may have been true a number of years ago. However, in todays current political
99 Vegasplanes : Still no Asian presence. Too much over-lap in NYC, Europe, Florida IMO. Not much to gain. The fleets are pretty compatable, lots of Boeings and Mad D
100 Post contains images MalpensaSFO : Excellent Point!! Northwest Airlines is on shaky ground. Of all the US airlines, it is easy to see that NWA, followed by UAL are the two on the verge
101 777STL : Not to sound like a rampant fanboy, but I guess someone forgot to tell American that? American is the number one airline in the world right now in te
102 Post contains images CO767FA : What leads you to believe that CO/UA would not continue to hub in DEN? Your logic is true in the sense that routes fail for a "myriad" of reasons; bu
103 Post contains images MalpensaSFO : Yes we have MRTC No we dont have MRTC Yes we have some MRTC Yes sodas are free on American Eagle No soads are not free on American Eagle Yes sodas ar
104 ElmoTheHobo : Not true. Of the three most profitable airlines in the United States (as of the last recording period, and as measured by the size of profit), US Air
105 Rampart : No, simply "Contorted". -Rampart
106 MalpensaSFO : Again, American Airlines is not a sure way to have success. In addition the routes listed in the previous post were not a success, no matter how many
107 777fan : I think I addressed this in another thread but I honestly can't remember at this point. IMO, PanAm and TWA names, despite the obvious nostalgia, aren
108 MastaHanky : AS would be a great additional to almost any of the legacies. It would be interesting to see what would happen if they were to be acquired, especiall
109 Jamake1 : When United purchased Pan Am's Pacific division in 1986, Pan Am was still a separate going-concern. UA purchased an ASSET, not the company. Likewise,
110 Post contains images Mariner : And they have about a billion dollars in free and unencumbered cash in the bank (said with nothing but envy). cheers
111 UAL777 : First of all UA is the bigger carrier and has FAR stronger brand recognition in asia. Their recognition is also strong in most premium US and Europea
112 777STL : Reread what I wrote. I never disputed the "stigma" of US brands. I just don't think it's why American is having to cancel a few routes.
113 CO767FA : Let's play name the date: When did CO first fly to Europe/UK? How long has UA been flying to Europe? First, it should (First vs. BusinessFirst) Secon
114 Jamake1 : Dream on. No. Let's not...
115 HunUtazo : AMR - nwac CAL - ual(frag)---------> LCC - fragments(ual/dal)
116 Joeman : I agree, but under the current climate, the reliever hub concept (i.e AA STL) seems nearly mute. There was a discussion recently of why so many regio
117 777fan : I would beg to differ. Practically every first class seat on every flight in/out of HNL is occupied, whether it be via upgrade or full fare purchase
118 AASTEW : Sorry to change the subject just slightly. What merger clauses are in the Continental IAM F/A contract vs. United AFA F/A contracts. Those are just so
119 EWRCabincrew : CO started flying IAH-LGW in '85, if I am not mistaken. Other operations to Europe started with EWR-LGW and MIA-LGW (both PE routes) and January 1, 1
120 CO767FA : The man formerly known as Mr. Bill "D" is the winner with the correct answer. Welcome to my respected list.
121 Jamake1 : Your not quite correct, but close. You're right about IAH-LGW commencing in 1985. PE flew to LGW and BRU from EWR, but if memory serves me correctly,
122 CO767FA : Ummm, I'm sorry but your answer isn't correct. CO did fly the MIA-LGW route (thanks PE) and subsequently sold it to AA (just like our SEA-NRT route,
123 MAH4546 : Of course, why don't we just ignore facts. Facts like how Stockholm, Milan, Osaka (first time), and Taipei were cut after 9.11, when dozens of airlin
124 EXAAUADL : the industry is showing that mergers arent required for profitability. What is required is pricing and capacity discipline
125 Jamake1 : As an aside, Continental's Mexico routes came with the 1982 merger of Texas International.
126 GoCOgo : I agree that CLE has been cut back seriously and might be in trouble should a merger happen, but my post was just rebutting the "CO/UA would OBVIOUSL
127 Bri2k1 : In today's business climate, that doesn't even seem to matter. K-Mart went bankrupt, then bought Sears. Who knows?
128 EWRCabincrew : My bad, it was EWR-ORY (I still prefer ORY over CDG) starting in Jan '88. CO flew MIA-LGW, apparently the defunct EA route, this was in '88 as well. W
129 Jamake1 : You are not correct. The MIA-LGW route came from EA, not PE. PE never operated MIA-LGW. PE operated only 3 trans-Atlantic routes. EWR-LGW, EWR-BRU, a
130 Jamake1 : EWRCabinCrew: I just want to correct you on one thing. ORY started right as BRU was being discontinued. The EWR-ORY route commenced immediately after
131 Post contains links EWRCabincrew : PE crews (after the merger we were still separate as flight attendants) flew EWR-LGW and the 6 day (EWR-LGW-MIA-LGW-EWR) and CO crews did EWR-ORY. It
132 Jamake1 : EWRCabinCrew: With all due respect, I stand by my statement. PE never operated MIA-LGW. I went through each link and there is no trip pairing for MIA-
133 777fan : ...which is exactly what a merger would enable the newer, larger carrier to do. Merging would lead to reduced capacity as overlapping routes are drop
134 EWRCabincrew : I give you that due respect and you are correct. I stood corrected and agree that the MIA-LGW was an EA route. However, if you are current with how P
135 CO767FA : Well, if Sir William is going to concede the point then I will do the same and go eat my humble pie!
136 AirFrnt : You need to study the finer points. The key phrase is corporate successor. The United States allowed code sharing in exchange for the right to have t
137 CTHEWORLD : Ahhh....how deregulation has worked!!! Full cirlcle...got to love it.
138 Planemaker : Unfortunately, they are showing nothing yet. Until there is a historical track record of annual profitabilty and an adequate return on invested capit
139 Jamake1 : I stand corrected as well. I now see what you had meant. By the way, did PE employees lose seniority when they were integrated into CO? Okay, then. I
140 STT757 : The oil business in Houston right now is going gangbusters and CO has been riding this wave, CO unlike the other major carriers has atleast a silver
141 EWRCabincrew : They lost, at a minimum, a quarter of their seniority. We had leather sleepers? CO? After the merger? Sure you don't mean crappy leather seats (with
142 Post contains links and images STT757 : CO operated MIA-LGW from '88-'90, CO sold the MIA-LGW route to AA around the time AA bought Eastern's Latin American Operations. View Large View Medi
143 WorldTraveler : There are a few sensible postings here and this is certainly one of them. Mergers are likely to occur for one reason only: because "doing a deal" is
144 Mariner : I don't think he needs to "try". The money people appear to be throwing money at him. The HP/US merger was not Mr. Parker's idea. he was brought to i
145 STT757 : Delta is in bankruptcy, CO is not. And your bloviating about how much better DL's profits are compared to CO's?..
146 STT757 : CO is making contributions to their Employees pensions while DL is dumping their employees on the tax payers and thus cutting their retirees benefits
147 MasseyBrown : A version of the Cassandra Curse. They fired him and then people with a bit more charm and patience implemented every one of his ideas. Siegel was im
148 Jamake1 : I am very happy to be in agreement with you on something, WT. Honestly, rather than a CO-UA merger, I would much prefer to see it in the form of a mi
149 Mariner : Yes, I agree. The Prince of Darkness. There was an awful tv i/v, with Siegel and Neeleman commenting on the state of the industry, which was - then -
150 Planemaker : Don't you see that you are contradicting yourself???
151 UAL777UK : You have a point there. I am sorry, but if you talk to most people on the street in the UK for instance, they would not have a clue who CO, DL, NW an
152 Post contains images MalpensaSFO : Are we forgetting Continental with service to: Beijing Hong Kong Nagoya Tokyo-Narita Are we forgetting Continental Micronesia with service to: Cairns
153 UAL777UK : Lets not get silly here, most people surely want to fly a wide body on a long haul route...not a 757!!
154 MalpensaSFO : Not being silly.... Most of the flying public doesnt know the difference between a 727 and a 747. As can be seen, airlines transport the masses. The
155 UAL777UK : I suspect your more than right in the first part, insofar that most people would not have a clue what aircraft they will be flying on, but how in god
156 Hiflyer : Someone mentioned the Texas Air merger with CO in 92...in fact Texas Air purchased CO with the proceeds they had made playing the National Airlines st
157 CO767FA : I sincerely doubt that some in the UK recognize UA for its service to the UK; they know the name due to the Sioux Falls crash; 9-11 and its recent BK
158 UAL777UK : Hmm, explain why UA needs to fly into those Airprts in the first place please? Correct they dont, because on most part and to most of those airports
159 WorldTraveler : There is no contradiction in saying that Wall Street rewards executives more for doing deals than running a profitable operation AND the fact that air
160 Post contains links Hiflyer : and all this speculation has been fun to read but seems to be quite partisan with 'selective' history...grin. May I suggest a review of current major
161 STT757 : CO now has 30 orders for 787s, DL has not placed an aircraft order in 6 years. The more time that goes by is a longer period of time from which DL wi
162 MalpensaSFO : The former Pan Am WorldPort is up for a major rennovation. In addition JFK's Terminals 1, 4, 7, 9 are outstanding facilitie that are unmatched by any
163 Planemaker : Since when does "Wall Street" run airlines?? So how can "THEY" be rewarded for running a profitable airline?? Or for deciding that two airlines WILL
164 CO767FA : Never said UA needs to do jack....point is, CO has a larger presence and is known for its service in the UK, while UA still has to deal with the fall
165 LatinAviation : Keep in mind one crucial point. NW owns a preferred share of CAL stock which basically gives the veto control over any change in CO's ownership. Thus,
166 CO/ba : I thought NW could only block CO being acquired not CO acquiring another airline.
167 AASTEW : Any CO or UA flight attendants care to answer?
168 EWRCabincrew : As a CO FA since 1987, my only thoughts on this, seriously, are wait till it actually happens. I can't think of all the "what ifs" and "mights". The o
169 WorldTraveler : Planemaker, Airlines almost all have some public ownership (ie stock market ownership). Investors (Wall Street) reward executives who inflate a stock
170 UAL777UK : What are you going on about. Are you implying that UA is worried about CO's presence in the UK. I dont think so. UA, is flying into EXACTLY where CO
171 Airzim : Looks like we have another Worldtraveler on our hands. For you to say that CO has no brand recognition in the UK is utterly ridiculous. For God sakes
172 SeeTheWorld : You are not right on this one. Absolutely, positively, not-even-close, the UA-CO merger would be called UNITED. The United brand is one of the strong
173 777fan : Looks like I indirectly own part of CO after all! I should get on the phone in an effort to make the merger happen! The NW-CO stock deal is interesti
174 Post contains links Planemaker : Deal with reality. None of the majors have run profitable and sustainable operations with the status quo of virtually no merger activity. So all you
175 SeeTheWorld : I'm sorry, but trying to make the point that DL is somehow is better shape than CO is just ri-DAMN-diculous! So, DL had a better operating margin in
176 UAL777UK : Read my thread again, did I mention market dominance anywhere....correct I didn't! What part of it dont you get, is it really difficult for you to un
177 EWRCabincrew : Really? Most? I would sure like to know how you get that statistic. With our flights full and the advertising we do, I find that hard to believe. Bef
178 Airzim : See here's the problem arguing with idiots, you don't listen. Let's try this real slow so you'll get it this time. You stated "most UK people have no
179 Post contains links and images Mariner : How so? He was sacked long before the merger became actuality. He got a $4.7 million severance package, which, given the circumstances, is far from "
180 777fan : I would imagine that they'd keep them until and ETOPS-certified twin engined aircraft came on line to serve SYD (maybe AKL) from the West Coast. I do
181 LatinAviation : Nope. The clause is for any change in control of CO. However, if there is a change in control of NW - not including their bankruptcy - the clause is
182 UAL777UK : Your hilarious, only one idiot here Bozo, and I am typing a reply to him!! READ MY THREADS PROPERLY BEFORE YOU REPLY!! I NEVER stated CO had NO brand
183 777fan : How does NW's BKK situation affect the worth of such shares? I would assume that a BKK judge could force NW to sell off the shares if it needed to pa
184 EWRCabincrew : The Gatwick Express, all over Bristol, Belfast, Glasgow, Edinburgh, B'ham. I know you are not knocking CO's product, and thank you for that, but to b
185 STT757 : Paint and HVAC upgrades are not major. Funny because Terminal C at EWR has more gates than JFK's T-1,4,7 and 9 combined! Also Terminal C at EWR airpo
186 Airzim : What's with the CAPS. Only brats that don't get their way scream like a baby. I never said that you said CO had no brand recognition. You said: I sta
187 Post contains images UAL777UK : Thats wealthy well travelled brat to you! No point in continuing the discussion with you, your ignorance is bliss. You must stick to what you beleive
188 Letsgetwet : Wrong. NW has the right of first refusal if CO becomes the target of a take over by another airline. But if CO were to want to aquire another airline
189 Airzim : Oh you got me there. Wow what a comeback! Being well travelled and wealthy sure makes your arguments much more convincing. Gosh, I'm so embarrassed.
190 Post contains links LatinAviation : The share doesn't have a market value. It is valued at $100. You are incorrect. Please see the actual share information, as posted on Continental's w
191 CO767FA : Uh huh....what about the other pages regarding NW Change of Control (which is more likely given their current status). Won't a "recapitilization" occ
192 777STL : You know what's amazing, I've been temporarily banned here for saying much less than this before. Nice to see there's standardization here in moderat
193 Jamake1 : Look. I am going to end this back-and-forth nonsense once and for all: Everyone is getting so heated up over mere speculation. The chances of a merger
194 Hiflyer : The duplication of investors between UA and CO would lead to merger speculation. Someone stated they had not heard from any investor so far on the iss
195 Post contains links LatinAviation : The NW and CO Change of Control verbiage is nearly identical. I was pointing out to the other person what a CO Change of Control meant. In the case o
196 WorldTraveler : And it makes no rational sense that US is worth more than other airlines that are much larger and generate far more revenue. Airline stocks are notor
197 Jamake1 : Precisely. I will just add to that, UAUA's (and other carriers') future POTENTIAL to generate stronger returns on investment. I totally agree. Yup. V
198 Airzim : Sure it does. It's economics 101. Size has absolutely nothing to do with market value. Where do you get this stuff from? The "value" of the company i
199 MasseyBrown : Stock prices are based much more on earnings and prospective earnings than they are on revenues. True. A profitable airline is worth far more than it
200 WorldTraveler : Of course we could expect you to argue with anything I write even though everyone else seems to agree. Wall Street has not determined that LCC is a v
201 Kiwiandrew : everyone assumes that NW would want to block any potential merger - but I think there are two important points to be considered 1 / NWs most important
202 Airzim : Wow, did you just say everyone agrees with you? Are we reading the same thread? Just slapped on an aritrary price? Wow you not only have a command of
203 Joeman : I agree with you completely GoCOgo, my comment was meant to reinforce yours. As you implied, it isn't like CLE is a major hub, even though the commun
204 Planemaker : Absolutely not! Again, you continue to contradict yourself. You have repeatedly acknowledge that airlines are "poor investments because they cannot b
205 Apodino : I totally disagree with WorldTraveller. Not only is US profitable, but they have a lot going for them which I believe is going to make them among the
206 Post contains images Mariner : And it also makes no rational sense that Southwest (LUV) is trading at $17 while US Airways (LCC) is trading at $40. But we are not talking about a m
207 Garnetpalmetto : I'm locking this one due to its length.
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