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DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?  
User currently offlineDIA77 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 704 posts, RR: 6
Posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4800 times:

Although this topic makes frequent appearances, it's been awhile since it has been discussed. Does anyone have insight into whether LH is interested in starting DEN-MUC next year? DEN has been a money maker for LH, so I imagine that this route must be high on their wish list.

In addition, does AF have any North American expansion plans in the next year? DEN always seems to be part of AF's evaluation process.

I'm looking for any plausible rumors or news  Smile

68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEVA777SEA From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4782 times:

SEA will probably see service to CDG on AF before DEN because of the connections offered by AS but I think LH could make DEN-MUC work.

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9375 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4719 times:

I agree that SEA is actively courting European Airlines, but Denver might work. LH puts a 744 into DEN from FRA, so MUC might work on an A343. I'm guessing there are quite a few connecting passengers that go elsewhere in Europe from FRA since DEN lacks European flights. The same could work with MUC. I think MUC would happen before DEN recieves more than daily flights to FRA.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6265 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4705 times:

LH could definitely work simply because of the Star Alliance ties...without that, I would doubt seeing a DEN-MUC route...but then again, DEN would serve mostly as a transit point to MUC for west coast folks, and there is already an LAX-MUC or SFO-MUC route if I am not mistaken, so, we'll see

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16927 posts, RR: 48
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4695 times:

In my humble opinion, I would expect a DEN/MUC on LH before a DEN/CDG on AF. That said, I would also expect DEN/CDG on AF before SLC/CDG.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4655 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
I agree that SEA is actively courting European Airlines, but Denver might work. LH puts a 744 into DEN from FRA, so MUC might work on an A343.

Waht they can court and what they get may very well be two different things!

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 1):
SEA will probably see service to CDG on AF before DEN because of the connections offered by AS but I think LH could make DEN-MUC work.

SEA to CDG will not happen, if Air France can gain traffic rights to YVR. In addition SEA-MUC will not be happening. Look for MUC-SEA with the A333 before SEA enters the picture. LH is more than content with the UA feed from PDX-SEA, SFO-SEA, LAX-SEA, DEN-SEA, ORD-SEA, and AC from YVR-SEA, YYZ-SEA.

Quoting DIA77 (Thread starter):
In addition, does AF have any North American expansion plans in the next year? DEN always seems to be part of AF's evaluation process

In lieu of the SkyTeam marriages that have been going on, there is a better chance of seeing AF to SLC, before DEN. The O/D from DEN to France is not that high. The feed that AF can get from SLC-CDG would more than fill a A332 to Paris. Also note that Air France may very well introduce a second daily service to San Francisco in 2007 with the A332 or A343. The second daily seasonal 747-400 to SFO was originally planned in 2003, however that was put on hold.


User currently offlineEVA777SEA From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4635 times:

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 5):
SEA to CDG will not happen, if Air France can gain traffic rights to YVR. In addition SEA-MUC will not be happening. Look for MUC-SEA with the A333 before SEA enters the picture. LH is more than content with the UA feed from PDX-SEA, SFO-SEA, LAX-SEA, DEN-SEA, ORD-SEA, and AC from YVR-SEA, YYZ-SEA.

Hmm even though Seattle is much larger and there are many more connection oppurtunities for AF with AS at SEA?


User currently offlineCO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4625 times:

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 5):
In lieu of the SkyTeam marriages that have been going on, there is a better chance of seeing AF to SLC, before DEN. The O/D from DEN to France is not that high. The feed that AF can get from SLC-CDG would more than fill a A332 to Paris. Also note that Air France may very well introduce a second daily service to San Francisco in 2007 with the A332 or A343. The second daily seasonal 747-400 to SFO was originally planned in 2003, however that was put on hold.

Is this just an educated guess?


User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4625 times:

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 6):
Hmm even though Seattle is much larger and there are many more connection oppurtunities for AF with AS at SEA?

That hasnt stopped Cathay Pacific, Air China, China Eastern, Singapore Airlines, Lufthansa, KLM, JAL, Philippine Airlines, or others from flying to Vancouver for years.


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2887 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4579 times:

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 5):
The feed that AF can get from SLC-CDG would more than fill a A332 to Paris.

Oh God not this again. Ain't going to happen.

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 5):
SEA to CDG will not happen, if Air France can gain traffic rights to YVR.

Two different cities, two different countries, two different markets. Service to one does not mean service to both.


User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4575 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 9):
Two different cities, two different countries, two different markets. Service to one does not mean service to both.

If they are two different markets then why doesnt Cathay Pacific, Air China, China Eastern, Singapore Airlines, Lufthansa, KLM, JAL, or Philippine Airlines fly to Seattle?


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4540 times:

MUC-DEN might only be on the table for LH once their additional A346s arrive (to either serve it with an A346 or to free up an A343), but then again, why doesn't UA try their luck with DEN-MUC? A 772 could be perfect for UA on this route. Since UA and LH are partners in Star Alliance, this could make MUC grow as a hub for the Star Alliance.

User currently offlineEVA777SEA From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4537 times:

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 10):
If they are two different markets then why doesnt Cathay Pacific, Air China, China Eastern, Singapore Airlines, Lufthansa, KLM, JAL, or Philippine Airlines fly to Seattle?

All of those you quoted besides LH and KL are Asian airlines and the large asian population in YVR is the reason they fly there over SEA. LH flies to YVR because of the star connections on AC and KL codeshares on the NW flight to AMS from SEA so that market is already served for them.

SEA is much larger than YVR and there are many more connections through AS in SEA compared to the connection oppurtunities in YVR. The SEA metro area is also about the same size as the DEN and SLC metro areas combined.

[Edited 2006-08-13 06:49:38]

[Edited 2006-08-13 06:52:02]

User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2822 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4519 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11):
MUC-DEN might only be on the table for LH once their additional A346s arrive (to either serve it with an A346 or to free up an A343), but then again, why doesn't UA try their luck with DEN-MUC? A 772 could be perfect for UA on this route. Since UA and LH are partners in Star Alliance, this could make MUC grow as a hub for the Star Alliance.

DEN will either see service to MUC, or it will see a 380 to FRA. UA has had DEN on a very strict no international traffic policy. I think that is changing now with UA's new commitment to the airport (They have committed to 25% increase in traffic in exchange for DEN forgiving ~125 million in commitment).


User currently offlineDYK From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 407 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4510 times:

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 12):
All of those you quoted besides LH and KL are Asian airlines and the large asian population in YVR is the reason they fly there over SEA. LH flies to YVR because of the star connections on AC and KL codeshares on the NW flight to AMS from SEA so that market is already served for them.

Let me correct you, LH has been flying to YVR before star connections on AC. Lh flies to YVR for the same reasons SK flies to Seattle as is the same reason KL flies to Vancouver. YVR is a smaller city with a larger market, SEA is not an International market , it is a large U.S. market city. I dont think you will never see AF in Seattle for the simple reason in can not support another European carrier. Case in point Aeroflot. Can not remember what Europe services YVR has lost since for ever but while Seattle has lost service YVR has continued to gain. Air France will serve YVR well before Seattle.



AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
User currently offlineEVA777SEA From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4481 times:

BA, KL, LH, LTU, and AC fly to Europe from YVR and BA, NW, and SK fly to Europe from SEA. The European destinations served by AC probably rely partly on connections. So what exactly makes YVR a much bigger European market?

User currently offlineDYK From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 407 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4466 times:

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 15):
BA, KL, LH, LTU, and AC fly to Europe from YVR and BA, NW, and SK fly to Europe from SEA. The European destinations served by AC probably rely partly on connections. So what exactly makes YVR a much bigger European market?

There are a few things present in YVR and absent in SEA
1. much larger ethnic community
2. a very large expat community
3. Unique in N.A. as there are many Europeans that live part of the year B.C
4.It is a larger tourist destination in terms of Europeans, Asian, South AMericans, Australians.
5. it is becoming a year round market
6. It seen as a safer destination
7. Canadian are more similiar to Europeans.
8. It is a much nicer City

BTW I am not a Canadian but Italian and I love this place!!

SEattle is a Bi-product to Vancouver, nothing more.



AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
User currently offlineEVA777SEA From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 4430 times:

Quoting DYK (Reply 16):
1. much larger ethnic community

OF Europeans? A large portion of Seattle is white. Plus there is much more business travel in and out of SEA.

Quoting DYK (Reply 16):
6. It seen as a safer destination

SEA had less violent crimes in 2004 than YVR.

Quoting DYK (Reply 16):
7. Canadian are more similiar to Europeans.

Doesn't even make sense.

Quoting DYK (Reply 16):
8. It is a much nicer City

Seattle is nicknamed the Emerald City...


User currently offlineDIA77 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 704 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4370 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11):
MUC-DEN might only be on the table for LH once their additional A346s arrive

Back to the original topic at hand....... I think the A346 might be a little too large for the DEN-MUC market. Unfortunately UA has no interest in pursuing this route.


User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 4329 times:

Quoting DYK (Reply 16):
There are a few things present in YVR and absent in SEA
1. much larger ethnic community
2. a very large expat community
3. Unique in N.A. as there are many Europeans that live part of the year B.C
4.It is a larger tourist destination in terms of Europeans, Asian, South AMericans, Australians.
5. it is becoming a year round market
6. It seen as a safer destination
7. Canadian are more similiar to Europeans.
8. It is a much nicer City

BTW I am not a Canadian but Italian and I love this place!!

SEattle is a Bi-product to Vancouver, nothing more.

You sound like a Texan. LOL.

I love Vancouver but your view of the Seattle market vis-a-vis Vancouver is ignorant. I don't think YVR getting AF service before Seattle is fait accompli as you imply.


User currently offlineBolu340 From Spain, joined Jan 2006, 46 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 4255 times:

LH is seriously considering for summer 2007 MUC-DEN or MUC-YYC. One of both will be operating. Don´t know actually the frequency and type of ac, most probably A343.

User currently offlineJohnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 4231 times:

Quoting DIA77 (Thread starter):
Does anyone have insight into whether LH is interested in starting DEN-MUC next year? DEN has been a money maker for LH, so I imagine that this route must be high on their wish list.

i totally agree. in fact, it was considered sometime ago but then LH opted to start MUC-YUL instead.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11):
MUC-DEN might only be on the table for LH once their additional A346s arrive (to either serve it with an A346 or to free up an A343), but then again, why doesn't UA try their luck with DEN-MUC? A 772 could be perfect for UA on this route.

very true, currently LH lacks longrange aircraft in order to open up more routes. but the first new A346s (with a three-class layout, btw) will be delivered in September. however, don't expect new destinations before next year's summer schedule (apart from the already announced MUC-GRU and FRA-CCU).

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 13):
DEN will either see service to MUC, or it will see a 380 to FRA.

why would they operate one single frequency per day on an A380 to a Star hub, if a second daily to FRA or a daily flight to MUC would offer a wider range of connections?

Quoting Bolu340 (Reply 20):
LH is seriously considering for summer 2007 MUC-DEN or MUC-YYC. One of both will be operating. Don´t know actually the frequency and type of ac, most probably A343.

i would agree with MUC-DEN. however, I am very interested in your MUC-YYC assumption. would you please shed more information on this? to be honest, I think it is way off (LH seems to have been unable to make MUC-YVR work)...

or have you been wildering in another German aviation forum  Wink

brgds
daniel



If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
User currently offlineDYK From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 407 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4222 times:

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 19):
I love Vancouver but your view of the Seattle market vis-a-vis Vancouver is ignorant. I don't think YVR getting AF service before Seattle is fait accompli as you imply

before making the ignorant remark, read first as it is in english. AF may not serve YVR, but yvr would have a better chance if serving Seattle.

I like Seattle but it is over rated as a market. If it was a international market for airlines then you would see a lot of more international service.



AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2887 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 4139 times:

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 10):
If they are two different markets then why doesnt Cathay Pacific, Air China, China Eastern, Singapore Airlines, Lufthansa, KLM, JAL, or Philippine Airlines fly to Seattle?

You answered your own question: they are different markets. Which is the same reason why Scandinavian flies to SEA and not YVR. Also KLM does serve Seattle with a code-share NW SEA-AMS.


User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4063 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 13):
DEN will either see service to MUC, or it will see a 380 to FRA. UA has had DEN on a very strict no international traffic policy. I think that is changing now with UA's new commitment to the airport (They have committed to 25% increase in traffic in exchange for DEN forgiving ~125 million in commitment).

When UA do go international over the Atlantic from DEN, IMHO it will be to LHR when Open Skies is eventually agreed.


25 DIA77 : UA flew DEN-FRA for a brief time a few years ago. They have expressed interest in operating DEN-LHR once open skies is agreed to.
26 EVA777SEA : Does UA have the slots right now to do that?
27 Humberside : Yes, but they are leased to other airlines such as AC
28 BigGSFO : UA could launch Denver-London if they wanted to, however the flight would have to operate to Gatwick, not Heathrow. DEN is not a Heathrow-desgnated U
29 AMS5280 : Does any one see a reason for DEN-AMS non-stop? Currently UA908/909 through ORD. There are a lot of Dutch expats around Denver.
30 LTU932 : Hence why I also said the additional A346s could help free up an A343 for MUC-DEN by LH.
31 DIA77 : Martinair had a weekly DEN-AMS nonstop about 10 years ago. I definitely think there is potential for that route, but it would probably come after MUC
32 DIA : Johnnybgoode: You sort of anwered your own question with your first reply to DIA77: LH loves DEN...it is a cash cow. LH has stated that they are seri
33 Johnnybgoode : sorry, but i could not disagree more! yes, FRA-DEN probably is a very healthy route (well, i agree with you there). No, they have never stated that D
34 Post contains links DIA77 : While this is nothing formal, Andrea Tollar (district sales manager for Lufthansa) said that Lufthansa is considering DEN as an A380 destination: htt
35 Johnnybgoode : thanks for pointing that out! but to be honest, I would not count regional sales managers to be the most accurate source (not saying they are inaccur
36 MalpensaSFO : By that insane sense KLM also serves Oakland, Sacramento, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Colorado Springs, Spokane, Boise, Salt Lake, Omaha, St. Louis, Austin,
37 EVA777SEA : SEA is listed as a destination served on the KL/AF route map. Source? What fortune 500 companies are headquartered in Vancouver and area...none. Wash
38 DYK : look the bottom line is International carriers serve YVR because there is a market and interest YVR. These days if an airline does not make money on
39 EVA777SEA : There aren't carriers lining up to serve YVR either otherwise more than just 16 million people would go through the airport in a year. And yes YVR is
40 A342 : MUC-DEN could be very viable. The daily UA flight MUC-IAD continues to DEN, and other passengers will chose to go via FRA or LHR in order to avoid the
41 Post contains images MalpensaSFO : You are however forgetting the importance of British Columbia for the Winter Ski Season, and Summer Cruise Season. No need to I am one of those Itali
42 DYK : Unlike Seattle, access to YVR is very much restricted byt he Canadian goverment and I was not suggesting airlines are lining up to service Vancovuer
43 EXAAUADL : not necessairly. AF could provide connections only beyond CDG by serving DEN, while going to SLC would provide conenctions beyond both CDG and SLC My
44 MAH4546 : KL/NW run all USA-AMS routes on a split operation interchanging equipment between the two airlines very freely. KLM does, in practice, fly to Seattle
45 LTU932 : Even on DEN's 15,000 ft runway?
46 EVA777SEA : Seattle has large cruise operations too. First you say Vancouver is a larger business center than Seattle and now that Vancouver despite that the Sea
47 MalpensaSFO : MAH4546, please provide us with a date or time period that KLM has flown their own metal to Seattle. You will find that KLM has never flown to Seattl
48 AirFrnt : There are floating designations that can be provided, but for right now, it doesn't make sense for UA to operate the route unless they can shift desi
49 MaverickM11 : I don't believe there are any connections worth having through SLC that AF cannot already get via any of its other US destinations, either through a
50 MAH4546 : I never once said that KLM flew their own metal to SEA. Never. I said KLM and NW interchange aircraft on their routes, which they do very often. IAD,
51 EXAAUADL : I'd say that is probably true, but what would happen is a pax going TUS-SVO would today go TUS-ATL-CDG-SVO, that pax would be re-routed TUS-SLC-CDG-S
52 EVA777SEA : What is your point. Both YVR and SEA have AMS service so WHO CARES??? It can go the same way with YVR, NW doesn't fly out of YVR to AMS but KL does a
53 MalpensaSFO : Often to Memphis was over 2 years ago... Often to Detroit was over 2 years ago.... Often to JFK was over 2 years ago... Often to Miami?? Miami was du
54 LTU932 : OK, I see.
55 MaverickM11 : Which of those do you think are worth having? And which of those are not available through other AF cities? And once you take those out, what's left?
56 MalpensaSFO : You are of course omitting FAT, BFL, MRY, PSP, POC, EUG, HLN, MSO, BIL, FSD, KOA, SBA, GEG, among others. Believe it or not. The rumor about SLC-CDG
57 Coronado990 : Elko is EKO. Pocatello is PIH. Sure...why not?
58 MaverickM11 : POC=PIH. All of the ones you mentioned (including FSD????) add up to a demand of under 30 total people per day each way, and most of them can current
59 EVA777SEA : Are you talking about AF or LH?
60 MaverickM11 : I'm talking about all connecting opportunities, regardless of carrier.
61 EVA777SEA : AF probably wouldn't be able to survive and DEN and LH would not be able to survive at SLC. Why would AF choose DEN over SLC when SLC provides many mo
62 AADC10 : DEN is like DFW and IAH in that it would have trouble supporting direct flights to Europe except for the biggest hubs there. I doubt that DEN could su
63 EVA777SEA : Wasn't AF also considering DFW and SEA?
64 MaverickM11 : I think AF would be more successful in DEN than SLC. I really don't see AF in either city any time soon but all things being equal, there is a much l
65 EVA777SEA : Well BA has flights into 19 US cities so it does well in a lot of cities.
66 DIA77 : I don't think SLC is even under serious consideration for AF. The last time AF was doing evaluation for new North American cities, the only cities con
67 EVA777SEA : I think i remember someone here saying something about DL considering starting transatlantic flights from SLC in 2007.
68 MalpensaSFO : DFW went bust a number of years ago with the A343.
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