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UA Applies For IAD-PEK  
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2920 posts, RR: 6
Posted (8 years 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7092 times:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060815/cgtu028a.html?.v=1

Surprised they didn't go for SFO-CAN however this ups the stakes. Obviously this bid competes mostly with CO's EWR-PVG application, but opens up a new China gateway, a second Asian desination from Washington DC, and will provide service between the two world capitals. Very interesting...

[Edited 2006-08-15 19:12:51]

74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7065 times:

This definitely ups the stakes. I expected SFO-CAN as well. Hmmm, let the games begin.

User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7065 times:

Wow, never saw that coming, they certainly are putting emphasis on IAD.

Has SFO-CAN not been submitted as well?.......Did I not see that in an earlier thread or are they only allowed as an existing carier to China to apply for one route per year tops??


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9583 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7051 times:

There is obvious effort going in to the IAD hub. I also find it interesting that United is wanting to put a 744 on the route rather than use the smaller 777. United might just get this route since the people in Washington would appreciate it and they are the ones making decisions.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7027 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
United might just get this route since the people in Washington would appreciate it and they are the ones making decisions.

There is no doubt that this is politically the most appealing application they could devise. It certainly makes them more competitive, as AA's application from DFW did against CO's application from EWR to PVG. It'll be interesting, but I think UA is the long-shot because of there current 28 weekly departures vs. AA's 7 and CO's 7.


User currently offlinePNQIAD From India, joined May 2006, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7006 times:

The press release talks about doing a combined PAX/Cargo run using a 744 - do UA 744s have legs to do the journey both ways without penalties? Obviously UA can't sacrifice cargo - since that is one of the focal points of the service according to the release.

Good to see IAD slowly building up to be a versatile international hub for UA rather than a Europe focussed - first KWI and now PEK.


User currently offlineIADLHR From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6985 times:

This is a very, very interesting development. I know a few people around town and rumor has it that CO may have burned some bridges, with the powers that be around DC with all their vocal criticism about the proposed EU/US openskies and the Virgina America controversy.

So among other things, this application by UA for a route from the east coast is in now in direct competition with COs application EWR-PVG. Interesting, very interesting.

It is obvious that UA is devoting time and resources to IAD. I am now strating to wonder what routes to Europe they may possibly start in summer, 2007.


User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6963 times:

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 6):
It is obvious that UA is devoting time and resources to IAD. I am now strating to wonder what routes to Europe they may possibly start in summer, 2007.

A valid point but where are they going to get the aircraft to fly any new routes?


User currently offlineDeltaFFinDFW From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6948 times:

"In support of this new route application, Speaker J. Dennis Hastert of the U.S. House of Representatives said in a letter to the Department of Transportation, "Washington, D.C., is the largest metropolitan area in the United States without nonstop air service to China."

Is this true? What about Dallas or Houston?


User currently offlineBlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3965 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6935 times:
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One of UA's largest corporate customers, The World Bank Group (World Bank, IMF, IBRD, etc...) is headquartered in DC and flies a lot of people to/from China, the vast majority of whom travelling in C (the rest split between Y and F). If a carrier is willing to grant a discount for World Bank business *and* if it has non-stop service from IAD to any particular destination, this carrier becomes the preferred airline on the route (which means everyone except the highest ranking executives must fly that airline). That is a lot of guaranteed revenue for UA, in addition to federal government employees, public officials and employees of governmen contractors based around DC.

I am absolutely certain that this wasn't the sole factor UA considered when deciding whether to go for IAD or SFO as origintating point, but I'm pretty sure it was an important one.

While it doesn't seem that way to most people, World Bank travel is a huge business (there are two travel agencies dedicated exclusively to World Bank travel and neither takes walk-ins, too busy). Back when BA was flying the Concorde, their incentive to attract World Bank passengers going to/through LHR was an upgrade from C/F to Concorde if seats were available at the time of booking. With a hub in IAD, UA is making a lot of money on that account alone.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32689 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6911 times:

This doesn't up any stakes.

It is going to AA or CO. UA already has 28 US-China flights. I agree the political connection definitley gives UA a nice advantage, but not enough, IMO.



a.
User currently offline102IAHexpress From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1156 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6869 times:

Quoting DeltaFFinDFW (Reply 8):
Is this true?

Yes. Though what defines a metro area is always a bit controversial.

City proper not even close. Actually the new US Census estimates came out today.

15 Largest cities linked below.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/2006/cb06cn05_table.xls


User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6869 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
It is going to AA or CO. UA already has 28 US-China flights. I agree the political connection definitley gives UA a nice advantage, but not enough, IMO

United Airlines has contracts which are key to many of their routes such as IAD-LHR, ORD-LHR, SFO-LHR, LAX-LHR, SFO-NRT, ORD-PEK, SFO-PVG, HNL-NRT, HNL-KIX, SEA-NRT. Additionally this makes one wonder what route with the 747-400 will be pulled for IAD-PEK? In any case it would be a very nice addition. However, the odds would seem to favor AA, and DL at this point.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8548 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6869 times:
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Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 12):
However, the odds would seem to favor AA, and DL at this point.

I thought the current route bid was only open to incumbent USA-China carriers which would rule out DL



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineBlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3965 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6844 times:
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Quoting DeltaFFinDFW (Reply 8):
Is this true? What about Dallas or Houston?

It's a politician, so it depends on what the definition of "is" is. As per the census bureau definition of a metropolitan area, Washington DC was #7 in terms of population (2000 census numbers). Ahead of DC are, in order, New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, Dallas and Miami. Houston is #8.

Based on the good Hastert, maybe US ought to file for PHL-PEK, it will win hands down.

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t29/tab03b.pdf

[Edited 2006-08-15 19:51:24]


I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6818 times:

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 13):
I thought the current route bid was only open to incumbent USA-China carriers which would rule out DL

Thats my understanding as well........Its a three horse race..UA, AA and CO.
 checkeredflag 


User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6818 times:

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 13):
I thought the current route bid was only open to incumbent USA-China carriers which would rule out DL

You are correct. However, now with Delta AIrlines buildup they are fishing for China. If not this round the next from ATL or PEK. AA has a very good chance but I question American Airlines since they have failed miserabley with expansion in the Asian region. Namely Nagoya, Osaka, Taipei, San Jose-Tokyo, Seattle-Tokyo, Honolulu-Tokyo(pulled before started), Boston-Tokyo(pulled before started).


User currently offlinePositiverate From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1590 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6818 times:

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 13):
Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 12):
However, the odds would seem to favor AA, and DL at this point.

I thought the current route bid was only open to incumbent USA-China carriers which would rule out DL

You're right. DL will be applying for the 2008 designations. In fact, good story in today's AJC about just that:

Franklin to visit China, lobby for business
Mayor will push for direct Delta flights

By WALTER WOODS
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 08/15/06

It's the ATL meets the Great Wall.

Atlanta Mayor Shirley Franklin, who has been a "stay-at-home mayor" for most of her tenure, will visit China next month to help Delta Air Lines win a direct route to one of the world's fastest-growing economies and lobby officials to open a Chinese consulate here...

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/...UZTZU_UWUcU]UZU`UaUcTYWYWZV&urcm=y


User currently offlinePlaneGuy27 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6748 times:

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 16):
Boston-Tokyo(pulled before started).

I don't think Boston-Tokyo was ever announced that it was going to start - they just received the rights to do the route in the 1998 protocol agreement.

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 14):
It's a politician, so it depends on what the definition of "is" is. As per the census bureau definition of a metropolitan area, Washington DC was #7 in terms of population (2000 census numbers). Ahead of DC are, in order, New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, Dallas and Miami. Houston is #8.

Washington, DC for most purposes is essentially number #4 because the CMSA should include Baltimore - when you add Baltimore (which the Census bureau recently split) you go up to number 4 with 7,349,177 total

City population means nothing - it is always CMSA type data that carries more weight.

A very interested application from UA but it is still hard to convince the govt that a carrier with 4 daily flights into China needs the new 2007 frequencies. I wonder what NW will apply for - maybe Zone 2 frequencies for secondary markets.


User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6748 times:

Quoting PlaneGuy27 (Reply 18):
I don't think Boston-Tokyo was ever announced that it was going to start - they just received the rights to do the route in the 1998 protocol agreement

At any rate is was going to be a MD-11...


User currently offlineSP90 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6729 times:

They probably want to secure the IAD-PEK route ahead of the 2008 Olympics.

I would appreciate a SFO-CAN route by UA if they ever get around to it. Right now I have to fly JFK-SFO-HGK and then bus of train into Canton. Better yet, JFK-CAN on a 777 if there is enough capacity for it.

[Edited 2006-08-15 20:07:31]

User currently offline102IAHexpress From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1156 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6707 times:

Quoting PlaneGuy27 (Reply 18):
City population means nothing - it is always CMSA type data that carries more weight.

For any other US city I would agree, but for me the Washington DC “metropolitan area” is a contradiction in terms. The District of Columbia is just that a district nothing more nothing less.


User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2496 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6707 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Thread starter):
and will provide service between the two world capitals.

CAN/PVG a capital (okay, regional)?! That alone is interesting!

Seriously, though, it looks like a great route that proves UA is determined to be the leading US carrier in Asia.

Any guess as to what Asian route(s) might be next? I would think that there'd be an interest in DEL or BOM again although I'm not sure where that would originate (perhaps IAD, ORD or SFO?). Madras or Bangalore would also be intruiging destinations although that'd really be stretching it (range-wise).

I'd like to see UA boldly continue to expand in the Middle East: perhaps Tripoli, Cairo or Dubai?


777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2672 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6627 times:

Quoting SP90 (Reply 20):
Better yet, JFK-CAN on a 777 if there is enough capacity for it.

That will never happen on UA. They just dropped JFK-LHR and shifted their NRT frequency to IAD. It is clear that UA is 'done' with JFK, save their p.s. service to LAX and SFO, and their Express service to IAD.

This is certainly an interesting development. Perhaps IAD will be quite the hub in the coming years. Any hints of India?


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6607 times:

Quoting DeltaFFinDFW (Reply 8):
Is this true? What about Dallas or Houston?



Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 14):
As per the census bureau definition of a metropolitan area, Washington DC was #7 in terms of population (2000 census numbers).



Quoting PlaneGuy27 (Reply 18):

Washington, DC for most purposes is essentially number #4 because the CMSA should include Baltimore - when you add Baltimore (which the Census bureau recently split) you go up to number 4 with 7,349,177 total

PlaneGuy is right. UA draws the entire Baltimore/Washington CMSA, and the entire catchment is what the decision will be based on.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 21):

For any other US city I would agree, but for me the Washington DC “metropolitan area” is a contradiction in terms. The District of Columbia is just that a district nothing more nothing less.

That's not really relevant. There are 7 million people living in the area, and that's what the airline is trying to serve.

N


25 FlyPNS1 : If you count Baltimore (which some people do), then metro Washington, DC is larger than Dallas or Houston. This application is interesting. I honestl
26 COEWRNJ : Sorry if this is a silly question, but are these authorities route specific? Say UA were to get the authority for IAD-PEK, could they two years from n
27 MAH4546 : It isn't true. Philadelphia, Dallas, and Miami are all larger than DC and have no non-stop service. Houston is smaller. Here you go again. HNL-NRT wa
28 102IAHexpress : The speaker is correct, when combining Baltimore to the Washington DC “metro” area. But as I posted above, what constitutes a metropolitan area i
29 MAH4546 : Yes, when combining the two it is true, but the US Census broke up CMSAs in 2003.
30 PlaneGuy27 : Actually some of the reasons the metro area split is from political bickering between the two cities. Funny enough there was an argument years back o
31 STT757 : The strongest point in favor of CO's application is that there is no service either by a US or Chinese carrier from the East Coast to Shanghai, there
32 102IAHexpress : Agreed, but if population will be a major consideration for the DoT, then CO application will surely get approved.
33 FlyPNS1 : The counter to that though is that if you award the route to CO, you concentrate all of the East Coast's China service to one market, NYC. NYC would
34 PlaneGuy27 : unserved vs. underserved? a thousand ways to cut it - all of these applications have their strengths and weaknesses. No one can deny DFW's connectivi
35 Post contains images BigGSFO : Ask for approval to link NRT with Xian with a 757. Well if UA is awarded IAD-PEK, this could, as well as AA DFW-PEK, weaken DL's chances to get ATL-P
36 AADC10 : I do not think that UA's 777-200ERs have the range for IAD-PEK. I presume that they will get the planes by downgauging another Pacific route as UA ha
37 BigGSFO : Only for incumbants. DL can apply for the 2008 authority.
38 Laxintl : IAD-PEK is less than 200miles longer than what IAD-NRT will be. Remember UA and others such as AA/CO use Polar tracks to reach China from the Eastern
39 777fan : Perhaps UA is hedging its bet that because it doesn't expect to meet the pax capacity for each flight, it can offset the "lost" pax revenue with adde
40 STT757 : The counter to that argument is that if you award the route to UAL, you concentrate all the China service from the East Coast to Beijing. With nothin
41 777fan : I agree to some extent although it's worth noting that a great deal of business/investment between the US and China needs approval from the feds, mak
42 Klwright69 : Isn't it true that 14 weekly frequencies are going to be awarded?? So it there will be two winners, correct?
43 RampRat74 : I have a feeling that the plane might come from the HNL-KIX flight. Then swap that 777 with one of the 747's that do the Europe runs.
44 Jacobin777 : thanks for the links...what I find interesting is that San Francisco/Oakland/Fremont is in one category and San Jose/Santa Clara is in another catego
45 BigGSFO : I agree. I live in San Mateo County and it's one big urban blob from SF to SJ.
46 RDUDDJI : As I've mentioned before, don't be surprised when UA announces service intra-asia with the newly refurbished F/C classed 763's...probably next year.
47 UnitedNRT : I work at NRT, in a position where i hear all the rumours going around, and have never heard that United would allocate the B767 frame to Narita or H
48 Jacobin777 : ..lol..that's true...add Napa County, Chico, etc... even SMF and Monterey are all basically served with SFO for TransPacific flights....that's a larg
49 Ualcsr : I remember reading about possible NRT-BLR service on UA. Any truth to this UnitedNRT? Also, would UA be able to serve CAN from NRT, NGO or KIX, as th
50 Post contains images Qantas744ER : So that has nothing to do with the engines. There is only one 744 operator that uses the more powerfull PW4062 engines, and thats China Southern Carg
51 UnitedNRT : United still possesses the rights to fly Japan to China though the 28 weekly slots designated to the company are used for US to China. I cannot confi
52 Supa7E7 : Can you say "flagship route?" The 2 cities will be connected, it's just a matter of when.
53 ElmoTheHobo : I can't see it happening for the same reason MAH points out - UA (and NW for that matter) have 28 weekly frequencies already. The DoT wants to open up
54 Wdleiser : To me, when talking about Metro area and airports......... DC is probably bigger than Houston because it attracts more passengers to its airport than
55 UAL777UK : Is it not more important to connect city pairs than simply to divide it out between the carriers. For instance would the DOT reject UA's proposed IAD
56 MalpensaSFO : What?? Please elaborate!
57 SeeTheWorld : The fact is all three applications have the pros and cons, and the DOT can spin it any way they need to. The applications are judged on their merits,
58 MalpensaSFO : There are serious doubts that AA will get additional China frequencies. AA sighted that they were planning/are planning to grow in Asia. American Air
59 CHIFLYGUY : Expansion/contraction aside, how many flights does CO have to Asia apart from its Air Mike operation? I know of IAD-NRT, EWR-NRT, EWR-HKG, EWR-PEK, a
60 SeeTheWorld : First of all, as it has been said over and over, DL does not qualify for this round of China designations. This round is only for incumbants. Second,
61 MalpensaSFO : If AA cant make SJC-NRT, SEA-NRT, ORD-NGO, DFW-KIX, and SJC-TPE work why would they offer AA the frequencies since they seem to fail at many of their
62 CHIFLYGUY : I think it's legitimate to question whether any US carrier will be able to be a big, successful player in Asia without an NRT hub. None of AA, DL, an
63 FlyDreamliner : Well, they have more service to Chinese destinations than any other US carrier - through their NRT hub currently, which is all they will have until t
64 Tony1477 : Any chances that UA get a A380 now if that route gets very popular?
65 FlyDreamliner : Doubtful. One aircraft subfleet? Not worth it. Unless they were going to buy a number of A380s to replace 744s, but one of them would make no sense.
66 ElmoTheHobo : ... because flying to mainland China is essentially a license to print money.
67 FlyDreamliner : All the same, you'd want to give it to someone with a proven track reccord (although AA's ORD-PVG is very successful). I think Japanese routes are a
68 UAL777UK : IMHO, you will see the 747-8i in UA's fleet at some time, not the 380
69 Gigneil : Yes. 648,000 pounds is the max with the PW4090 for inexplicable reasons. CO's GE90 powered frames are 656,000. N
70 FlyDreamliner : I guess their regretting that one right about now at UA....
71 UnitedNRT : While United doesn't "like" the weight restriction on the B777, they certainly don't mind the commonality between the PW407X and the PW4090. Getting
72 Style : Looks like Dennis Hastert (Speaker of the House in Congress), who is from Illinois has written a recommendation letter to DOT saying how great it woul
73 Post contains images Jacobin777 : AA's SJC-NRT route ran for 15 years....not one... yet their JFK-NRT, ORD-NRT, DFW-NRT, and LAX-NRT, not to mention their ORD-DEL, ORD-PVG flights are
74 Laxintl : If you re-read what Elmo said, he was mentioning that all 3 of the Asia routes get dropped in a matter of one year. Actually the internal AA employee
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