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USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3104 posts, RR: 10
Posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4741 times:

Courtesy: Philadelphia Business Journal

USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelp.../daily46.html?b=1155528000^1333998

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK if this subject rings a bell I started a thread on May 10, 2006

It was titled: "USAirways Has Better Earnings-Pilots Want Better"
This was the story that highlighted the thread. There were 48 replies in this thread which is in archives and can't be dredged up except in the way I have done here.

Courtesy: The Business Journal of Phoenix

USAirways Pilots Seek Improved Contract Following Earnings News

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2006/05/08/daily18.html

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8310 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4723 times:

No offense but I'd expect a bit more inteligence from a goup of people such as ailine pilots. What do they want to accomplish with this? Take the airline back into ch11?

User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4634 times:

No, they're asking for some of their money back, the money the company had to steal to get back into the black. They aren't going to drive the company into the ground.

Remember, these "concessions" are usually temporary amendments to a contract, and in the case of DL as well, once the time is up on them, the company better CTAGB, because the payscales will be back where they should have been.

Right on, US pilots...bout time to make some money again.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2560 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4591 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
What do they want to accomplish with this? Take the airline back into ch11?

The pilot's unions are not operating in the dark. They have some very highly paid analysts that can look at a company's ledger and know what a reasonable pay scale is. They also are very clear on what the company can afford, and what it can't. They certainly don't want to run it back into bankruptcy.

USAirways posted over a $300 Million profit for the second quarter, yet the pilots are still flying at the lowest concessionary payscale they negotiated during the dark days of Ch. 11. It seems pretty reasonable that if Doug Parker and the rest of the management team is getting hefty bonuses, the employees that did the work for them are entitled to some of that profit too.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4057 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4513 times:

What's really weak about their actions is that they couldn't even wait a couple months to go into action. The airline is starved for aircraft right now, yet the pilots want their money back. What about all the other groups that took pay cuts? Why aren't they protesting?

User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4393 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
Take the airline back into ch11?

Please, this won't take them near Ch. 11.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
No offense but I'd expect a bit more inteligence from a goup of people such as ailine pilots

Have you not paid attention to the US MEC?  wink 

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineHPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4331 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 3):
USAirways posted over a $300 Million profit for the second quarter, yet the pilots are still flying at the lowest concessionary payscale they negotiated during the dark days of Ch. 11. It seems pretty reasonable that if Doug Parker and the rest of the management team is getting hefty bonuses, the employees that did the work for them are entitled to some of that profit too.

I just attended a town hall meeting with Doug and one of the questions frequently brought up was related to the profit and how it's going to be shared amongst the employees. Doug mentioned that the pilots had a clause in their contract that stipulated if the company did engage in a profit sharing program, the pilots' union was to get approximatly 40% of the overall pool. Didn't sound to good to the rest of the company, but that was what was negotiated with that union during US's BK.


User currently offlineM180up From El Salvador, joined May 2006, 403 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4327 times:

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 6):
just attended a town hall meeting with Doug

Hey, I've been hearing about this hall meetings with Doug from some employees I know from reservations, and now from you, he is a pretty open guy as I see it, and I think he is doing his best to run the airline, I hope the airline can stay on the track it is right now, having earnings and expanding to new markets as needed, focusing in the markets it has strenght, he made a lot in HP and is making a lot to improve the new US, at least that is the way I see it, can't confirm it on first hand, but IMO he is a great CEO and doing a lot for the new US:



Werner from SAL
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2560 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4324 times:

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 6):
Doug mentioned that the pilots had a clause in their contract that stipulated if the company did engage in a profit sharing program, the pilots' union was to get approximatly 40% of the overall pool.

Don't forget though that both the old US and HP contracts will be disposed of and a new joint contract should be in place sometime next year. It is required by the transition agreement that there be a single contract and single seniority list before the airlines can officially merge. I would guess that the 40% share clause will be long gone by the time any bonuses are paid out. And it would be even worse for morale if just the US pilots got their 40% share while the HP pilots got nothing. Talk about setting up a situation for bitterness!

Oh well, at least I'm not involved anymore, although I do have a lot of friends still there. (I went back to Hawaiian this summer). Good luck to all!

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineHPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4315 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 8):
I would guess that the 40% share clause will be long gone by the time any bonuses are paid out.

I believe that was part of the East's contract, and it will have an impact on this year's profits. Regardless of what happens with the combination of the two contracts, that 40% clause will still be in effect for the year's end and this year's profits will be divied up as such. Depending on how quick they negotiate the unified contract will influence how the profit is shared for 2007.

Quoting HAL (Reply 8):
And it would be even worse for morale if just the US pilots got their 40% share while the HP pilots got nothing.

I doubt the HP pilots will get none, but I would assume they're not gonna get that large of a stake. I'm currently in a non-union position, and well, the way these unions are talking about splitting up the pot, I'm thinking I may get a whole $35 at the year's end, when currently, the profit pool would average out to $1,000 per employee.

Quoting HAL (Reply 8):
Talk about setting up a situation for bitterness!

I think the bitterness is already in place.

Quoting M180up (Reply 7):
he made a lot in HP and is making a lot to improve the new US, at least that is the way I see it, can't confirm it on first hand, but IMO he is a great CEO and doing a lot for the new US:

Most employees are content with Doug in charge, and from what I hear, most of the East employees are happy to have Doug as their new CEO. I am pretty confident overall employee morale has improved since the merger.


User currently offlineVEEREF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4119 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
What do they want to accomplish with this? Take the airline back into ch11?

Insert "Greedy overpaid pilots bring down airline" thread here.........  tapedshut 


User currently offlineVEEREF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4116 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 4):
What about all the other groups that took pay cuts? Why aren't they protesting?

Good question.


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4057 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4058 times:

Now that I think about it, probably because if anyone else put up too much of a fuss, they'd just be outsourced.

User currently offlineGo3Team From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3267 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4035 times:

It's nice to see that when a company has a little bit of money, that the employees feel that it belongs to them. That money would be better off saved for a rainy day. 300 million isn't going to buy a lot of aircraft, nor get very far when it comes to payroll. I don't know how much they get paid, but they should at least be happy to have a job.


Yay Pudding!
User currently offlineMastaHanky From United States of America, joined May 2006, 264 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4031 times:

Tell them they can call about their money when they can make it through the winter season profitably.

User currently offlineWJ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3994 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 3):
The pilot's unions are not operating in the dark. They have some very highly paid analysts that can look at a company's ledger and know what a reasonable pay scale is. They also are very clear on what the company can afford, and what it can't. They certainly don't want to run it back into bankruptcy.

Yes, just like the analysts working for them at NW, UA, DL and so on and so on. They sure read that one right "$350,000 for a captain? Sure! Why not". that ofcourse had no impact on bankruptcies.

The US captains need to be thankful they have a job at a successful Flag carrier, which was in very dire straits just over a year ago, and are not running cargo in cessna caravans across the Sahara. Can't they just sit down and shut the hell up for once?! Doug Parker is the most talented airline CEO out there today and he will not leave anyone behind, least of all the pilots, who I am sure will get their due soon.

How goddamn greedy can you get??


I hate unions.



146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4057 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3967 times:

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
Doug Parker is the most talented airline CEO out there today

Well maybe not the most talented, but certainly one of the stars of the moment.


User currently offlineWJ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3909 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 16):
Well maybe not the most talented, but certainly one of the stars of the moment.

Lets not start worshiping all of them, there are a few good ones out there but what he has accomplished in his tenure as CEO is nothing short of amazing. Turning HP around from near liquidation and then taking on US, which today is not the only successful airline out there to be sure, but it's the only one that was on the verge of extinction no more than a year ago.



146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2560 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
he will not leave anyone behind, least of all the pilots, who I am sure will get their due soon.

How goddamn greedy can you get??

Do you know how many times over the past dozen years the pilots have heard that???????? And where are they now????? Far worse off in pay than they've ever been!

Greedy is one thing. When they've taken over a 60% pay cut in the past few years, it's not surprising they're a little pissed off about it all!

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
They sure read that one right "$350,000 for a captain? Sure! Why not". that ofcourse had no impact on bankruptcies.

It takes two to tango - management didn't have a gun to their head when they signed that contract either.

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
I hate unions.

Fine. Don't come looking for a job here then. And when you get fired after 20 years with nothing to show for it, don't come crying to us saying 'that's not fair'!

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineWJ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3881 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 18):
And where are they now????? Far worse off in pay than they've ever been!

Which is still far better off from where they would have been had they had no airline to work for.

Quoting HAL (Reply 18):
Greedy is one thing. When they've taken over a 60% pay cut in the past few years, it's not surprising they're a little pissed off about it all!

No, when they could have had a 100% pay cut and be left with no airline. In their situation you say thank you for having a job and you keep quiet until you start seeing the airline string together a few successful quarters. The cost of this merger are tremendous and many of them have not even begun to hit. As I said, they need to sit down and shut up.



Quoting HAL (Reply 18):
It takes two to tango - management didn't have a gun to their head when they signed that contract either.

Treatning to strike and striking were not invented yesterday. Unions used to have a lot more power than they do today and used it quite well in the past. These days its a whole new ballgame in which the lowest bidder wins and if the cost is letting go of your own people and hiring contract replacements so be it. The same rules dont apply anymore and all unions should be well aware of that. You can't go around making threats, someone may just hear you and either start hiring some of the thousands of eager RJ captains flying out there to backfill your mainline spot or maybe just give your route the express guys altogether.

Quoting HAL (Reply 18):
Fine. Don't come looking for a job here then. And when you get fired after 20 years with nothing to show for it, don't come crying to us saying 'that's not fair'!

Life isn't fair, haven't you heard? When I retire I dont expect a red carpet or anyone to come by and thank me every day for the work I did. I also dont expect to be handed out any significant retirement pay, if at all. If I am fortunate enough to make what flight crews made and even with recent cuts still make, I would learn to save and save a lot.



146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3875 times:

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
Doug Parker is the most talented airline CEO out there today and he will not leave anyone behind, least of all the pilots, who I am sure will get their due soon.

Agreed,
Chainsaw Steenland should take a lesson or two from Parker.

Quoting WJ (Reply 17):
Turning HP around from near liquidation and then taking on US, which today is not the only successful airline out there to be sure, but it's the only one that was on the verge of extinction no more than a year ago.

Wow, HP was close to liquidation? I thought they were fiddling in and out with profits.


User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3864 times:

Quoting WJ (Reply 19):
Which is still far better off from where they would have been had they had no airline to work for.

Well, how many airlines out there have almost gone under? Shouldn't they be counting their blessings? Heck, shouldn't all pilots be working for free as a way of thanks for these very generous airlines for allowing them to fly such pretty, fast, and big jet airplanes?  sarcastic 

Quoting WJ (Reply 19):
No, when they could have had a 100% pay cut and be left with no airline

Well, half of them did.

Quoting WJ (Reply 19):
In their situation you say thank you for having a job and you keep quiet until you start seeing the airline string together a few successful quarters.

Ah yes, let's all praise the ever so generous US Airways. You are too worthy for them to have pay similiar to the colleagues at other major airlines.  hypnotized 

Oh, and those "few successful quarters" must have already arrived for the management and non-union employee's have already received pay raises.

Quoting WJ (Reply 19):
The cost of this merger are tremendous and many of them have not even begun to hit.

So what is all this savings I have been hearing about from the merger?

Quoting WJ (Reply 19):
As I said, they need to sit down and shut up.

That's what they have been doing for the past 5 years. It is time for them to gain a LITTLE of what they gave up so the airline could survive.

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3860 times:

Quoting WJ (Reply 17):
and then taking on US

Not discrediting what he did with HP, but I really don't think he has done anything all too special with US. Sure, their fortunes have changed, but it wasn't because of Parker. He hasn't done anything in relation to US that US wasn't going to do. He basically, so far, has just be the morale leader for the East operation, which does have a big effect.

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineWJ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3851 times:

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 20):
Wow, HP was close to liquidation? I thought they were fiddling in and out with profits.

Yes, right around 9/11. Doug parker took over HP a few days prior and was about to seal up a deal for a significant and vitally needed cash infusion for the airline. Then 9/11 happened and the banks retracted. The fact that all the paperwork was set with business plan in place to turn the airline with that money, he was able to head to Washington and be the first one knocking on the door for the government backed loans. He got that approval before anyone new what hit them and HP was on the right track.

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 21):
Well, how many airlines out there have almost gone under? Shouldn't they be counting their blessings? Heck, shouldn't all pilots be working for free as a way of thanks for these very generous airlines for allowing them to fly such pretty, fast, and big jet airplanes?

SOAC, I am not saying they need to wait forever. A good business should always reward the people who got it there, no doubt. But give them a chance, they just posted a profit... No press statements, no dialogue, right away they come up with picketing. What's next? US pilots going on strike? Is there nothing else in that bag of tricks other than these two worn out actions?

I'm sorry but I find this begger position in which the pilots want to put themselves in a bit disgusting.



146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3846 times:

Quoting WJ (Reply 23):
No press statements, no dialogue, right away they come up with picketing. What's next? US pilots going on strike?

Eh, don't worry about this. It is simply the MEC doing what they do best. While US pilots do deserve a raise, and I believe they should get one, don't pay attention to the noise makers at ALPA.

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
25 WJ : Just justifying their existence I guess...
26 Post contains images M180up : 2 quarters with profit, and $300 millions earnings, but if you put this on the big scheme of things it isn't that much, it won't but many aircraft, o
27 VEEREF : Ummm, what airline pilot makes that, and what percentage of pilots does that represent? Might want to recheck those numbers.
28 Saab2000 : I work in the US Airways system (though not technically part of US Airways) and am a pilot and make about 10% of this $350,000 figure. I don't think a
29 VEEREF : Attention please all US airline employees! WJ from the UK hates unions. He is now in charge. WJ, what SHOULD an airline employee get paid, in your ex
30 WJ : The problem you apparantly dont get is not what airline employees should get paid, it's what their market value is. It's a very nice thought to have,
31 SCCutler : Best statement in this thread. I have a great deal of contempt for the way many unions' leadership attempt to justify their existence by making "over
32 Saab2000 : WJ, If market economics dictate salaries, why should labor NOT stick it to the companies when there is a labor shortage? As a pilot, I can only speak
33 WJ : I wish everyone would share that approach but they dont. The companies have become suspecious and the work groups defensive (I am generalizing, it's
34 VEEREF : You are correct in that there are thousands of pilots out there, but out of those not all are cutout for airline flying. I have 7 years of training a
35 Steeler83 : Okay... Given that US is finally back in black again, firmly at that, I guess it IS time that the pilots, F/As, mechanics, etc get some of their pay
36 HPRamper : Only pilots have that kind of leverage. If rampers and mechs "grow a pair" they would simply be outsourced a la NW and their mechs. As for management
37 VEEREF : I left out part of that thought. What I should have said was that other employee groups should stand behind each other. I.E. If the rampers walked, t
38 Post contains images JBirdAV8r : Quite well said SOAC! There is a place for pilots like that...the scab carriers like GoJet and Freedom Air (Mesa). And even the carriers where the pi
39 WJ : Grow a pair like the NW Mechanics? Or Alaska Rampers? or a few other airline Reservations agents? Maybe Eastern's mechanics need to get off their but
40 HPRamper : I don't see it happening unless all airline employees are members of the same union. Call it the IAEU or something (International Airline Employees U
41 VEEREF : Read reply #37
42 Post contains images Swissy : While I very much dislike Unions I respect them as a part of the industry we are working in, yes they posted a good profit and it would not have been
43 Saab2000 : I agree that a common sense approach is needed. To give straight back all the money to the employees is probably not the answer. After all, investment
44 Supa7E7 : You are confusing the normal labor market consisting of individuals with the effects of a total strike. On an individual basis, yes, it's your right
45 MaverickM11 : I don't. It's par for the course. Airllines should require a one semester course in Economics 101 at the local community college for all employee gro
46 Coa747 : As I recall the old US Airways meaning the east side had among the highest labor costs in the industry and you saw where that got them. The decision i
47 MaverickM11 : It's been "in the black" for what, two quarters? Labor unions need to be beaten over the heads with years and years of "in the red" to finally get th
48 AA767400 : And down the road there are the NW "greedy" Flight Attendants right? They just want their share, but I guess airline employees should not be making a
49 Saab2000 : SUPA7E7, I was speaking hypothetically. Of course, I don't believe that labor should 'walk' unless that is the last viable option. And even then it is
50 MaverickM11 : Everything the pilot's unions do completely belies that. Maybe it's just the PR machine of the union, but it's not helping the image of pilots one bi
51 Coa747 : I agree how about waiting until the airline sees a sustained profit for four whole quarters until making demands like that. Yes I realize that pilots
52 ScottB : Well, I can see where both sides are coming from, and it's interesting that few have made any mention of the timing issue which is driving what the pi
53 Saab2000 : With all respect, and wishing for a respectful exchange, please give examples. It is my opinion that pilots are never overpaid, but even if we meet o
54 HPRamper : And PHL has improved greatly. Baggage handling numbers and on-time departures are both up drastically year-over-year.
55 VEEREF : To all you union haters out there, consider this next time you get on an airliner- Without ALPA there wouldn't be any "greedy, spoiled airline pilots"
56 MaverickM11 : What do airline managers have to do with any of the items you listed? Moreover, airlines can't afford to appear unsafe. The instant they do (Valujet,
57 HPRamper : Worker protection. Meaning the highest seniority positions are often filled by lazy, disgruntled, or stupid employees who cannot be booted. I see it
58 Yellowstone : Why is it that union-bashers insist on citing these $350,000 a year pilots? Sure, that's kind of ridiculous, but there are so few of them out there th
59 Saab2000 : Maverick did not come up with specifics here, just general thoughts and arguments which are stereotypes. His initial argument insinuated specific prob
60 Post contains images Swissy : Thats how I see it today, why is flying so safe today??? because of you guys (Pilots) and not the unions and to some degree the aviation law, could i
61 VEEREF : Absolutely NOTHING. That was my point. Flying hasn't become safer because of management. Because the crews who actually have to go out and do the fly
62 Swissy : Being from the other side I agree with you 1000% in some cases it is "sick" the justifications and excuses they use........I only can shake my head.
63 MaverickM11 : Airline managers have just about zero power over anything you mentioned. I am doubtful that unions played a significant role either other than lendin
64 MaverickM11 : If their "value" doesn't change, then that would mean they don't ever deserve a raise other than cost of living increase.
65 Coa747 : The threat of continued rising fuel costs could quickly see US Airways profit evaporate in a cloud of smoke. 100 a barrel oil is not a fantasy and if
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