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AA Daytime MIA-GRU Trip Switching To Night Trip  
User currently offlineAACUN From Mexico, joined Jan 2004, 518 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3964 times:
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The sole Miami-deep South America daytime trip AA has will be switching times, and will start going to Sao Paulo at night joining the other 2 flights north bound and south bound. This is a shame as it is the most popular trip for AA flight attendants in Miami......

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32619 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3917 times:

This is likely a winter-only thing, as I doubt AA will have the aircraft to do this year-round. Good for yields though. The MIA-GRU daytime flight had decent loads, and was profitable because of cargo, but redeyes are always best. Plus, I'm sure TAM is happy. They have the daylight market to themselves, for now. I wonder if this means AA will codeshare on TAM's daylight flight. The main reason they didn't want customers choosing the other airline's-operated daylight flight over theirs.


a.
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4498 posts, RR: 72
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3856 times:

I've never understood this perceived preference for overnight sectors, yet on routes where there is a choice between daylight flights and redeyes, passengers - especially those of the premium type - seem to be putting a premium on overnight flights. Sure enough, one can save time and money by picking an overnight flight, but a fully booked business class compartment does by far not replace the comfort of a hotel room.

Meanwhile, on those Westbound sectors, such as North America-Japan or Europe-North America, that have traditionally only offered daylight flights, passengers seem to have no issues at all going with daylight flights.

Double overnight patterns like MIA-GRU-MIA on AA are disastrous for the airlines' aircraft utilization rates as they leave airframes parked for extended amounts of time, racking up parking fees while not raking in any revenue. These ground times used to be somewhat mollified by the airlines' operating tag on sectors, but in these days such tags have become so expensive to operate that it has become cheaper to leave the aircraft sitting around for a day.

Still, some airlines seem to be doing just fine operating daylight sectors, and an increasing number of such flights is being put into the airline schedule all around the world. The drive for optimized utilization rates seems to be catching up on the perceived commercial preference for redeye sectors.


User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3779 times:

People prefer redeyes because they don't lose a day of work travelling.

Airlines are out to serve the permium passengers, which are mostly business travelers. Business travelers don't want to spend a whole day in the air when they could be working. These same travelers will pay a significant premium, which justifies (or makes up for) the poor utilization rates.


User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3737 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
but a fully booked business class compartment does by far not replace the comfort of a hotel room.

That's probably the reason business class are more commonly offering 180 degrees seats.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
North America-Japan or Europe-North America, that have traditionally only offered daylight flights, passengers seem to have no issues at all going with daylight flights.

Traffic between these either sectors are also by far busier than South America - Europe/N. America.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
Double overnight patterns like MIA-GRU-MIA on SA)">AA are disastrous for the airlines' aircraft utilization rates as they leave airframes parked for extended amounts of time, racking up parking fees while not raking in any revenue. These ground times used to be somewhat mollified by the airlines' operating tag on sectors, but in these days such tags have become so expensive to operate that it has become cheaper to leave the aircraft sitting around for a day.

I believe it may be due to a North - South issue as well: not that big difference in time zone, but relatively long flights (~10 h).
Europe - Brazil is usually timed to depart in the last available hour of the night with early morning arrival in Brazil whereas all European carriers prefer early morning arrival in europe.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
Still, some airlines seem to be doing just fine operating daylight sectors, and an increasing number of such flights is being put into the airline schedule all around the world. The drive for optimized utilization rates seems to be catching up on the perceived commercial preference for redeye sectors.

Nice remark. IB, BA, delta, AF, JJ, have all been increasing daylight flights right after having established their redeyes. But TP, SA, KL and AV have been operating daylight legs to Brazil successfully.
All in all, I mean IMO that airlines generally strengthen redeyes first for then increasing daylights - the more South America - Europe/N. America gets busier, the more daylights we'll see, thus increasing aircraft utilization.
just my thoughts..



Varig, Varig, Varig
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3714 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
I've never understood this perceived preference for overnight sectors, yet on routes where there is a choice between daylight flights and redeyes, passengers - especially those of the premium type - seem to be putting a premium on overnight flights.

That's not only a premium passengers' preference in Brazil. Y passengers also prefer redeyes, since daylights leave Brazil very early around 9 or 10 AM, which means that on has to leave its home or hotel room at 5 or 6 AM. Another problem is that these flights have to rely on O&D, because connecting passengers rarely take flights at 5 or 6 AM when they have to connect to an eight or nine hours flight afterwards.
This strategy is actually very smart, since ANAC is restraining new flights to GRU. If AA didn't change this now, they wouldn't be able to do this in the future. Change them back to daylights will not be a big problem, but the other way around will be pretty rough.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11418 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3659 times:
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Quoting C010T3 (Reply 5):
This strategy is actually very smart, since ANAC is restraining new flights to GRU. If AA didn't change this now, they wouldn't be able to do this in the future. Change them back to daylights will not be a big problem, but the other way around will be pretty rough.

Could be. Also AA move is strategic as RG night flight is not running and Tam is not able to run a new flight (they do not have planes available). AA will run 5x daily Brazil-US (3 GRU, 2 GIG) during the north hemisphere winter and more could come!

The flight will switch timetable effective December 14 (on US-Brazil) and December 15 (Brazil-US), keeping the same flight numbers, as noticed before in another thread (not specific as this one).

Also DL get a good help to improve their ATL-GRU daily-light without AA competition.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32619 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3531 times:

It has absolutely nothing to do with ANAC. They do not control schedules and cannot tell AA when they have to fly their flights. AA can switch between day light and red eye as they please.


a.
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3508 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
AA can switch between day light and red eye as they please.

Perhaps I wasn't so clear. ANAC is in control of the slots at GRU, isn't it? ANAC doesn't work transparently and as far as I'm concerned does not its slot distribution public, so I can only guess that GRU is about to be declared full in the evening, making it impossible for AA to move its flights to an evening departure.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3495 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 8):
so I can only guess that GRU is about to be declared full in the evening

GRU is far from full in evening positions which are certainly available, especially because of the downfall of GRU's major operator: RG.
AA's decision has nothing to do with ANAC.

Rgs,


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3490 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 9):
downfall of GRU's major operator: RG

I'm not insisting that I'm right. I just suggested this as possible cause of this change.
ANAC cannot redistribute RG's slots, since they were bought with the New Varig. If I'm not mistaken, the only slots that are authorized to be redistributed are some at CGH. If ANAC manages to have this prohibition overruled is another story.

[Edited 2006-08-20 22:36:56]

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11418 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3464 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
It has absolutely nothing to do with ANAC. They do not control schedules and cannot tell AA when they have to fly their flights. AA can switch between day light and red eye as they please.

Mark, the comment was that ANAC could grant some extra frequencies to run daily-light flights to AA. It makes a lot of sense IMO after ANAC grant frequencies to Delta.

ANAC has the power to allow ou forbidden new flights, AA can just change their timetable but need to ask ANAC and Infraero about slots. For sure as they will drop one GRU-DFW, they just asked for 2 additional night slots at GRU, but they asked!

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3318 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
Mark, the comment was that ANAC could grant some extra frequencies to run daily-light flights to AA. It makes a lot of sense IMO after ANAC grant frequencies to Delta.

Correct. I think we could expect AA to apply for extra frequencies, which could mean AA would still run MIA-GRU daylight.

Rgs,


User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3308 times:

Since when is GRU a slot controlled airport? The only controlls I know about are those imposed by Brasil's bi-laterals.

User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4002 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3288 times:

Without the day flights, GRU will look like an AA parking lot during the day: 3 767s and 1 777.
It won't come close to Miami though, which will have the widebodies of all those trips plus those from GIG, EZE, MVD, SCL parked all day (except one 777 that will fly on to LAX). Seems like AA has too many planes.


User currently offlineAAL0616 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 272 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3273 times:

The evening trip will result in stronger daily performance without daily dips in F/C % seats sold at high fares or Y seats sold at non-discounted fares, or so we're told. Especially around the holidays, the extra evening trip is warranted, as well as that Varig has mostly disappeared. The other consideration is that there is or will be a push for a fourth daily frequency which will be the day trip, with equipment running fly patterns down and back without the all-day layover; in other words, two of the trips will be down-back and two will sit. One of the four will likely remain a 777 or perhaps two if or when demand warrants. TAM may be jealous of just handing out code share seats on their day trip. There is some repositioning of AAL Miami 777-767 frequencies upcoming due to increased opportunities, along with the possible longer-range 757 additions.

User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3268 times:

Quoting AAL0616 (Reply 15):
The other consideration is that there is or will be a push for a fourth daily frequency which will be the day trip, with equipment running fly patterns down and back without the all-day layover; in other words, two of the trips will be down-back and two will sit

I also expect the 4th AA MIA-GRU to come into the picture very soon.

Rgs,


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32619 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 3231 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 14):
It won't come close to Miami though, which will have the widebodies of all those trips plus those from GIG, EZE, MVD, SCL parked all day (except one 777 that will fly on to LAX). Seems like AA has too many planes.

Most of the planes continue elsewhere, they are not parked. They go to Madrid, Paris, London, and Dallas, among others. There is always a 763 or two parked at MIA, but that's about it.



a.
User currently offlineAAL0616 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 272 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3194 times:

Incoming 777 and 767 aircraft mostly schedule out to domestic stations and Europe throughout the day, before the evening returns to deep Latin America, and the process reverses itself southbound. That said, it is not unusual to see several 767s parked all day. When you see more hanging out at the old NAL/PAA maintenance area, it can be because of the staggered times the birds are moving on and off the very congested gates. At other stations, some might occupy gate space but at MIA they have to be moved off. Midday you might see 777s parked, too, but they are rotating in and out on the LHR run. Based on some of the specific rotations, on some days there will be 777 aircraft that hang out all day, but that does not occur every day. I know that it can look like an overflowing parking lot some days but you have to take into account the A306s, B757s and B738s that add to the pileup. No, AAL does not have a lot of aircraft available (especially, now, 757s) that can just sit all day and the plan certainly is that they don't. However, yes, the heavies do have some down time factored into their weekly schedules, but not nearly as much as it might seem. The 767s flying GRU, et. al. are flying CDG and MAD. and rotating back into JFK, ORD and DFW from the Atlantic and LatAm as well as into MIA (they are not a completely "dedicated" MIA fleets).

User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4002 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3165 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
They go to Madrid, Paris, London

Those airplanes come into Miami in the afternoon from Europe and turn back early evening. I realize the airline can mix and match but doesn't have to.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Dallas

The morning 777 from Miami to Dallas seems to have evaporated.
The afternoon 777 departure can be done with the plane that comes from London.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11418 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3030 times:
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Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 13):
Since when is GRU a slot controlled airport? The only controlls I know about are those imposed by Brasil's bi-laterals.

Just because they do not keep gates available at night. The airport is controlled by Infraero, a state-owned company, not by airlines and they have the power to grant or not a slot. AA could receive also some extra check-in counters at GRU very soon.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
I also expect the 4th AA MIA-GRU to come into the picture very soon.

Agree, a daily light with additional frequencies.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3017 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):
Just because they do not keep gates available at night. The airport is controlled by Infraero, a state-owned company, not by airlines and they have the power to grant or not a slot. AA could receive also some extra check-in counters at GRU very soon.

Generally, when people are referring to "slots" they are talking about take-off and landing rights at a particular time of the day, not gate or ticket counter space.

I am aware of Infraero's status and powers (as I fly to GRU or GIG 2-3 times per year). GRU is not even close to being "slot constrained" as there are not that many flights (much of the domestic Sao Paulo traffic being through CGH). There may be some constraints on gate and ticket counter availability that are under the jurisdiction of Infraero, but not take-off and landing "slots". Any "slot" restrictions are a matter of bi-lateral government to government agreements designed to protect each of the countries' respective carriers.

Infraero does not have the unilateral authority to give or take away "slots"

[Edited 2006-08-23 20:19:16]

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