LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13116 posts, RR: 12 Posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9859 times:
The above article (I know, from one for extremely sensationalist tabloids of the UK market) discusses where some pax on a Aug. 19th Monarch Flight # 613 to depart at 3 am from Malanga to Manchester was delayed as some pax demanded 2 'asian looking' men, who they thought were speaking Arabic be taken off the aircraft. To quell the growing issue, the men were taken off the flight by airport security at the pilot's request. Apparently some people, in part due to their own fears and for or from their children were behind this blatant case of discriminatory behavior. The men had gone through security procedures twice at the airport, but the pax effectively did their own profiling and caused this men to be removed.
The article also notes other incidents of passengers doing their own profiling against 'Islamic' looking men and women, their fears triggered by the recent plot disclosures. It could also mean more incidents and trouble for airlines and other pax in the UK and elsewhere where a few pax force their fears and discrimination upon the airlines despite through security checks.
CPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4785 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9778 times:
Its a tough call. I had a situation where someone had a "prohibited" substance recently...the guy next to me on a flight YYZ-MAN last week took out a tube of hand cream and started applying it to his hands. Not so great for YYZ airport security....
Anyways, you can bet I was watching him like a hawk but I didn't want to make a fuss over it unnecessarily and cause a diversion or anything stupid. But you can bet I would have got the f/a's attention if he brought the tube to the lav or started doing anything unusual with it. But it turns out he was just moisturizing his hands and YYZ airport secuirty dropped the ball big time. I asked him about it an he seemed generally ignorant - he had been on holidays for three weeks and hadn't followed the news.
Jfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3485 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9764 times:
I see no problem with this. As a matter of fact, the TSA should profile. We're looking for Islamic terrorists here. It's not being racist to say that the terrorists fit the the profile of a middle-eastern looking person. That said, you can't target Muslims for no reason. But if pax saw something unusual, it's worth taking a look at.
" But you can bet I would have got the f/a's attention if he brought the tube to the lav or started doing anything unusual with it."
Well that's quite absurd. If he brought the handcream to the bathroom and you alerted the crew, they'd probably have a much higher chance of discovering him doing something lude than trying to blow up the plane.
I think we have all gotten out of control with this liquid thing. Screeners are so busy looking for the forbidden toothpaste that a bomb is gonna flow right past them.
CPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4785 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9757 times:
Quoting Jfklganyc (Reply 3): Well that's quite absurd. If he brought the handcream to the bathroom and you alerted the crew, they'd probably have a much higher chance of discovering him doing something lude than trying to blow up the plane.
That is probably true, but nonetheless it is a banned substance that should have been caught by the security screeners. Whats the point of banning it if they can't even screen something this obvious.
Connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9750 times:
Quoting Jfklganyc (Reply 3): I see no problem with this. As a matter of fact, the TSA should profile. We're looking for Islamic terrorists here. It's not being racist to say that the terrorists fit the the profile of a middle-eastern looking person. That said, you can't target Muslims for no reason. But if pax saw something unusual, it's worth taking a look at.
Before we all make this really political, let's not all act like lemmings.
Remember: The terrorist Timothy McVeigh was associated with fundamental Christian groups. The Israeli fellow who shot up the Muslim prayer group at a disputed site in the 90s was associated with a Jewish fundamental group.
The key word to remember in all this is fundamental, or fundamentalism: the inability to see the other p.o.v. My way or the highway thinking.
It's not religion and/or ethnicity that's the problem, it's fundamentalism.
Jacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9642 times:
they were "arabs"...so they could be "bombers"...makes me want to puke.. ...
did these men do anything that was illegal or wrong? what the 'ell is "suspicious"??
so, this is what it comes down to..fear, paranoia and plane old racism..
maybe the people who got off the plane or who didn't board should have stayed..
"A spokesman for the Civil Guard in Malaga said: "These men had aroused suspicion because of their appearance and the fact that they were speaking in a foreign language thought to be an Arabic language, and the pilot was refusing to take off until they were escorted off the plane.""
the pilot chose the "others" over the "arab-looking' men"....simply unbelievable..
they pilot should be fired and monarch should be sued........
In this topic I started months back the same thing happend. A Maersk flight from VIE was delayed as a " arab looking guy" who was reading a arabic newspaper was removed from the flight and the A/C was bomb searched!
So EK,QR,EY and GF will go down soon when all arab looking guys are removed from the flights.......
GDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13210 posts, RR: 77
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9538 times:
They might well not even have been Muslim, and even it they were?
Could be Hindu, Sheik (SP?) - they don't all wear turbans, Buddist, christian.
I am afraid that looking, as one of the other pax said, 'a bit dodgy' does not cut it.
Susequent reports on this do not cast the objections of the other pax in as good a light as some think on here.
There is also the question of the lack of leadership of the Capt here.
These two young men, were given the all clear, returning later.
Given the Capt's lack of leadership, perhaps they should sue the airline.
I for one, most people I know will feel the same too, will NOT go about life being scared and paranoid.
Where I live live, where I work, you just could not function like this.
Then there is the issue of doing the TERRORist's work for them.
Levent From France, joined Sep 2004, 1718 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9518 times:
Quoting OHLHD (Reply 9): So EK,QR,EY and GF will go down soon when all arab looking guys are removed from the flights
It would rather be the other way around - if I were an Arab, I would stick to flying with Gulf carriers only. And why not? They all offer a much better service than the European airlines...
This also worries me personally because I am an 'Arab-looking man' as well. And although I don't speak Arabic, I am sure many people wouldn't know the difference between Arabic, Turkish, Farsi or Hindu if they overheard it. I guess I'll have to cope with it, but if I ever get escorted off a plane because of my looks, I will sue that airline big-time!
OHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9475 times:
Quoting Levent (Reply 11): It would rather be the other way around - if I were an Arab, I would stick to flying with Gulf carriers only. And why not? They all offer a much better service than the European airlines...
That´s true. They will avoid EU or US carriers if this becoming a common thing.
Flynlr From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 225 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9409 times:
while im not a fan of profiling . if you look at the terrorist incidents since the 70's there is the oddball non confomist but in the end it keeps coming back to islamic extremists. I have a very close friend who is muslim . but gosh darnit that profile keeps turning up.
The Right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed
Thorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9369 times:
That's just sick. Is everyone who speaks "something like Arabic" and "looks kind of Asian" now a terrorist, or what? What are we really coming to?
Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 1): Well according to the article... they men were acting suspicious. I applaud the passengers being so "aware" of the situation.
Worries spread after a female passenger said she had heard something that alarmed her.
Heard what? "Something that alarmed her"? Did they talk like "Jihad, Jihad, Allahu Akhbar!"????
Passengers noticed that, despite the heat, the pair were wearing leather jackets and thick jumpers and were regularly checking their watches.
Given how cold it is in airplanes, especially when you come from a warm country, these clothes do not surprise me. And checking their watches? What do YOU do when your planes is late? And how often is regularly? Twice in five minutes?
Anyway, paranoia and fear have turned flying from being the greatest thing in the world to a pretty annoying experience, these days.
JGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9312 times:
Pitiful, absolutely pitiful, and typical of your average tabloid-reading egg-and-chips Monarch passenger - I hope the two men involved sue Monarch and the Guardia Civil for unlawful arrest etc etc. This is blatant racism, nothing more.
Singapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8932 times:
Now this is a very slippery slope.
Let me take two views:
1) The majority of the public is ignorant. A small minority of the public act on this ignorance. A smaller minority may be irrationaly disturbed at the sight of an Arab / Muslim / "Asian". They will then just look at them wearing 'jumpers' and speaking in 'Arabic' and automatically assume something is up.
2) Some people may side on the fence of security. Political correctness aside, this automatically lifts Arabs / Muslims / "Asians" to the top of the scrutiny pile and maybe rightly so. This is why you need profiling at airports.
In my view, these passengers were stupid. They were acting on racist instincts that were perpetrated by ignorance. They were acting on irrational feelings and mere shock at seeing an Arab / Muslim / Asian / Whatever the people were.
It is certainly very interesting to see how Monarch reacted.
The situation was a disgrace.
Having said that, I myself have no suggestions as to how to strike a balance between security and being aware of certain ethnicities that are statistically and common-sense-ically more likely to commit terrorism than others.
In essence, for shame on the ignorant passengers, for shame on their irrational feelings and emotions, for shame on Monarch.
And it would be the Daily Mail to publish such an article.
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13116 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days ago) and read 8820 times:
I did not intend this thread I started to become a discussion of politics more appropriate to the non-av area. Rather I wanted to note that we are seeing small numbers of passengers taking what they consider to be their security into their own hands, becoming vigilantes and the potential risks of such behavior. This is going to complicate security programs and airline operations, yet not really reduce terror risks. While we need to figure out better as to how to deal with terror risks, we need to get the confidence of the public and not give in to vigilantism, racism and ignorance.
Connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days ago) and read 8635 times:
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 30): I did not intend this thread I started to become a discussion of politics more appropriate to the non-av area. Rather I wanted to note that we are seeing small numbers of passengers taking what they consider to be their security into their own hands, becoming vigilantes and the potential risks of such behavior. This is going to complicate security programs and airline operations, yet not really reduce terror risks. While we need to figure out better as to how to deal with terror risks, we need to get the confidence of the public and not give in to vigilantism, racism and ignorance.
Soups From Ghana, joined Jun 2004, 3438 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8089 times:
i travel very often within europe and europe/africa
1- my middle name is muslim/arab
2-i look middle eastern
If i ever got ''profiled'' and put on the side i am sueing the airline or whoever is in charge of that
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7963 times:
1) Profiling should be looking for suspicous behaviour rather than simply race or common practice in a certain culture
2) Pretty much every religious extemist (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh) calls for the death of anyone not following their way. We should be targetting all extremists and avoid alienating moderates (something which racial profiling is very good at doing).
I hope these guys do sue the a*** off Monarch, or at least badmouth to everyone they know
BA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 418 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7889 times:
You can be sure the captain discussed the situation with Monarch HQ.
It was a company decision, to prevent an airborne incident.
This was a no win situation for Monarch.
This was a case of pure paranoia in our society today.
Fire the captain? No, sir! The security of his airplane was his responsibility.
Arsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7753 times:
I find it quite disturbing that incidents of this sort are on the increase. People need to understand that terrorism has no boundaries. So while the rest of the world becomes fixated with "Asian" or "Middle Eastern" looking people, Al-Qaeda will simply send suicide bombers of a different race. Racial profiling is only a quick-fix, short term solution which does the bare minimum to fight terrorism. And these are not isolated incidents, last year Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens) was deported back to the UK by over-zealous US officials who somehow managed to identify a world famous musician as a terror suspect.
In Arsene we trust!!
: ArsenalLHR is right, forgotten John Walker Lindh already? What if he had not been some Taliban groupie, but someone training for something else entire
: I was absolutely disgusted when I heard about this..... What is the world coming to? I would be interested to hear if Monarch compensated these guys a
: Hopefully they'll sue Monarch and win.
: This is a no win case for anyone. If you were the guys accused would you want to be on a plane for two and half hours with people who clearly don't wa
: They shouldn't. But it seems a number of people chose to offload themselves from the flight due to concerns. Thats where it should have ended. If the
: Yeah, some guy ordered hummus on a flight recently, I nearly had a panic attack.
: Hi All I find this hole episode very disturbing. Two men of Arab origin travelling together, talking in their own language on a aircraft and fellow pa
: The 2 passengers concerned had tickets to fly on Monarch that Monarch are bound to honour. They had passed security checks the same as all other pass
: My family and I here in the states for the summer from Pakistan, and we'll soon be going back. To be perfectly honest, I've never been as hesitant as
: I applaud those passengers for doing what any sane person should do. The problems with islamic terrorism has become so rampant, that the public must r
: Yes, but let's face it. The public's judgement is somtimes stupid.... yes yes even if they do have their rights to do judge and condemn etc. etc. etc
: What would all these Monarch paxs who complained about these passengers do if they were on a flight to CAI, DXB, or JED? Ask for all the "arab looking
: I'm sorry but that is complete and utter rubbish!!! You cannot have passengers dictating who can travel on a particular flight. Where do we draw the
: Racistly discriminate against someone? Don't be absurd.
: I hope these two guys sue the airline. How the hell can passengers just start getting people removed from planes because of their own feelings.... ama
: Great, so now: -I should avoid speaking Arabic at all while on a plane. Speaking Arabic with another Arab = planning a terrorist attack. -Looking Arab
: It's not being racist, but it's being wrong. Heard of european (as ethnical origin) people converted to radical Islam? Yes. This story just makes me
: In the early days of the epidemic, but after the mode of transmission was understood and known, this DID happen. As I recall there were newsworthy oc
: ??? Pure Nonsense! I am sure you are a judge too. that sums it up! Do not forget your PC to read the regular BS about arabs and islam here on A.Net.
: Precisely! It really is an absolutely sad situation, showing exactly the state to which paranoia has reached, engineered no doubt by certain parties
: When i first heard about this incident, i thought there could be no two ways about this. how can a bunch of pax decide who gets on & who doesnt. surel
: The poor guys probably were afraid of flying. I have checked my watch too many times when I'm waiting for the A/C. Maybe I should stop doing it now b
: if, after these men were taken off the flight, it was found that they had some sort of devices (or liquids as it has been talked about)snuggly in thei
48 ME AVN FAN
: A) suspicious ? overdressed apparently, for whatever reason. As - Patrick Mercer, the Tory Homeland Security spokesman, said last night: "This is a v
: This story seems a little bit extreme to me. Though I do favor profiling of select individuals, these men (from what I understand) had cleared securit
: What´s also sad is how the actions of a few extremists can come back to affect a whole race and religion etc. The jihad against the "evil west" is st
: Yup, thats the unfortunate truth. But who is going to tell the brainwashed terrorists that?
: This is anotehr example of why we need to introduce a mandatory clothignc hange before boarding. Everyones clothes should be removed and stored, and e
: While everyone seems caught up on the clothing debate, lets consider the timings of flight ZB613: depart Malaga 03:05 arrive Manchester 04:50 Even in
: Agree...Monarch didn't do the right thing..they chose to side with the mutineers (who were behaving irrationaly as well as prejudiced) rather than le
: most of the terrorism in Britain in the 1970s and 80s was commited by the IRA their bombs and weapons usually bought with american money eg NORAID wh
: if you haven't figured it out by now, let me make it simple, until someone kills an American and especially on American soil, the US government doesn
: to Trex8 dont worry i figured it out years ago as did the vast majority of the population of Britain
: BCAL, though you can see maybe the Capts predicament, what has this to do with any issues in politics? Trotting out 'Blair and Bush lied' means nothin
: The airlines have always reserved the right to bar travel to anyone they deem a risk to the flight, at their discretion, and at no time do they have t
: stopping the "crazed muslim" might stop a few amateur wannabes who probably couldn't get their act together to even zip their fly after going to the l
61 ME AVN FAN
: the story shows that it was NOT a decision of the airline, but the airline yielding under severe pressure to the will of some passengers What qualifi
: So let me get this straight... praying out loud is now grounds for removal from the aircraft, in your opinion, simply because the guy could be prayin
: If this kind of thing "unsettles" you, then don't ever fly Royal Brunei. They have an Islamic prayer played of the PA system on board prior to depart
64 ME AVN FAN
: well, on Western airlines, the NON-Muslim passengers will have votes before departure. If you are lucky you will have a majority of Yes, if NOT you n
: What are "Arab looking" men? The average yahoo flying Monarch (or USAirways for that matter) probably has no clue. They probably think that the Indian
66 ME AVN FAN
: didn't you know that Indians are "Arab looking" and Arabs "Italian looking" ? smile
: What about cases where the terrorists pretend to convert to other religions so that they can vote for their fellow terrorists to board the plane? Don
: Watching Donny Deutsch TV show on CNBC...interview with David Neelman..he is more interested having pax having a "trusted traveler card", as well as p
: The airline is there to serve the passengers. Not to cater to the whim of one man who wants to make scene. This is not the middle east. Not new laws.
: how about rounding up to a billion..that should cover it to almost all the Muslims on this planet... .... ...defending themselves and stay alive? wer
71 ME AVN FAN
: the two men did NOT want to make a scene, did NOT make a scene, and did NOT make prayers loudly. --- And your assumption that making scenes and to be
: For those of you interested in my two cents, i would have to agree with all those who say that the men in question should sue the A** off monarch. Thi
: Wow... the amount of racism in your posts is disgusting, Hmmm..., I never thought anybody could be this ignorant, especially somebody living in a city
: What a load of rubbish. These 2 pax must have been delighted at staying in AGP for a while longer instead of returning to Mankychester In all seriousn
: Was there any need to call the white lady fat? I fear you may be equally guilty about propogating nasty racial stereotypes.
: Why? I'm fat, and I know plenty of white ladies that aren't fat... that was just being stupid, nothing meant by it. There is a difference between mak
: Oh, pleeeease spare us of this apologist nonsense, will ya? No matter how long the list of your pathetic excuses will be it still won't justify the c
: Unfortunately, it is not for you to determine how other people may interpret your words or actions. People will interpret however they choose, no mat
79 ME AVN FAN
: That is completely true. As soon as an unwise statement is out, people may take it in whatever way THEY want to have it. You of course can apologize
: SHOULD you need to depend on the goodwill of your immediate social peers to continue functioning? - ABSOLUTELY NOT. DO you need to depend on it in re
: Your analogy doesn't quite work. Even Aishwarya Rai or Salma Hayek, neither of whom is fat nor white (but certifiably gorgeous), would be asked to ve
: Oh really???? Where did you get this information??? Can you back that statement up??? Hahaha, thats funny......Ill lhave to let my Pastor know that..
83 ME AVN FAN
: - my "outward behaviour" and all those things DO FIT IN ! so that this has never been my problem at ANY TIME. I however am NOT ready to take facial s
: Absolutely right!! Post 9/11, quite a few misguided and ignorant Americans went about attacking Indians and Hindu temples under the belief that they
: And the whole point of anti-discrimination laws is to make srue that small peer groups with racist ideas do not impose their thoughts on other. I am
: My dear clueless friend. Which "biblical times" do you refer to? Or are history texts in American classrooms written by those who failed history? Giv
: lol I've said a lot more intelligent things than this and my posts have been removed quickly. You islamists even hate each other and have fought agai
: So it is ok for one society to impose their wishes on someone, but not another.
: 1) I'm not an Islamist, hell, i'm not even religious 2) Looks like the hippies aren't the only ones who've been smoking pot... 3) How about giving a
: In that case you must not be listening. Discrimination in the Middle East is so institutionalised that many people do not even recognise it as such.
: Unfortunately the thread has gone off topic from the original subject despite the moderatoring team's efforts to keep the discussion on topic. The thr