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Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?  
User currently offlineAussie_ From Australia, joined Dec 2000, 1766 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 18936 times:

There have been persistant rumours around oz in the past few weeks (much longer than that, if you keep your ears to the ground) about a Virgin order for Embraer regional jets.

The most detailed of the rumours is the following that was posted on a regional spotters site recently:

Anyone have anything to add to this??

* * *

Subject: Virgin Blue Fleet additions

Hi,

New aircraft coming into the stables 2007-2009.

Embraer 170 Regional Jets (4x ), & Embraer 190 Regional Jets (21x) for
Regional services throught Australia.

International services:

B777-200 LR has been given the nod for International services to USA.

An announcement from Virgin Blue is expected mid September.

Embraer company demonstrator Emb-190 aircraft PP-XMB c/n 1900002 will
arrive in Darwin for an Australia wide tour in November.

81 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMRURUN From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 18873 times:

Quoting Aussie_ (Thread starter):

Where will DJ use the EMB? Replacing capacity eg MEL-SYD at quieter times of the day? Or new routes? Is the order of EMB strictly for DJ or for PacBlue/PolyBlue too?


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 18873 times:

777-200LR services to the USA vs. Jetstar's 787s will stand no chance.

N


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25275 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 18840 times:
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Surely the cheaper way to start regional services would be to buy Rex?

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 38
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 18709 times:

I hadn't heard anything on this but it sounds pretty exciting.

If true, I'd expect the Embraers to focus on Canberra, where the use of Q400s and Q300s is an insult, especially a Q400 for more than two hours from Brisbane which I did a few months ago. A total disgrace. You don't stick business people in a stuffy horrid little buzz box, and if this is true Qantas is going to get the kicking it deserves.

This would also be a very potent jet for say Hamilton island and the Sunshine Coast, where Qantas enraged its customer base by deploying Jetstar. Ask yourselves. Two by two in an Embraer, or line up and shut up and push and shove so you can get jammed into a Jetstar 320.

This would be a very good move, if true. And even better if Qantas goes out and matches it with the Embraers as well.

Antares


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 18515 times:
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Virgin Blue to the USA would be great, but to what city are they flying to?

User currently offlineAerohottie From Australia, joined Mar 2004, 802 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 18311 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
777-200LR services to the USA vs. Jetstar's 787s will stand no chance.

Not entirely true if you look at the routes the aircraft will likely operate on... DJ would probably use the aircraft on the prime routes of MEL/SYD and possibly BNE to LAX/SFO and maybe even ORD/NYC etc... these are prime routes for Qantas, where they use 747's... the 7772LR would have far lower costs than the 744's used by Qantas. If Qantas was to deploy Jetstar armed with 787's onto these routes just to offer flights with lower costs than DJ then they would also be attacking the Qantas premium brand and destroying their own yeilds. Effectively this would Give DJ a nice little posse between the QF brands.... QF would be damned if they did, and damned if they don't. QF would prob be better off leaving these prime routes to QF metal rather than mongrelise the market.



What?
User currently offlineABpositive From Australia, joined Nov 2005, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 18311 times:

I can't wait to get a go on the Embraers.

User currently offlineAS384 From Australia, joined Jun 2006, 6 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 18185 times:

If there were any truth to the B772LR rumour, then I'd hope the rationale behind such a quixotic equipment choice was :

(a) because the B772LR is available right now (ILFC et al ?) and;
(b) to gazump QF by connecting UA hubs at Chicago and Denver to BNE, SYD and MEL before the B787 can be deployed by Qantas or Jetstar.

DJ should not get into a low margin war of attrition in the USA west coast market quagmire. Overfly 'em all, I say !!

Would it be right to speculate that the newly invigorated (but cash poor) UA likely won't concede bums on seats to anybody (even a potential code share partner, such as DJ) on their existing routes out of California. . .


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 18119 times:

Quoting Aerohottie (Reply 6):
the 7772LR would have far lower costs than the 744's used by Qantas.

I don't believe that to be true... a 777-300ER would probably, yeah, but the 747 vs a 777-200LR?

The 747 does have one thing for it, and that's seat mile cost if you can fill the seats. QF has absolutely no problem filling them on said route.

Further, QF can demand a premium RASM on the route. A Virgin Blue 777 wouldn't really.

N


User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 38
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 18080 times:

People back home think the 777-200LR rumor is wrong but that the Embraer rumor is plausible but at least an hour or so ago there was nothing from any of the proper channels to indicate confirmation or denial.

User currently offlineHKGKaiTak From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 1050 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 18080 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 9):
Further, QF can demand a premium RASM on the route. A Virgin Blue 777 wouldn't really.

Who said the US services would come under the existing Virgin Blue brand? It could well be a VS-type full-service carrier for all we know, and I believe they have been making noises about looking at names and standards of service etc for the US route.

I still don't see why they would go with 772LRs ...

And the E190 idea for CBR and Queensland's holiday isles sound fantastic. Would love to see Embraers in Oz!



4 Engines 4 LongHaul
User currently offlineOnedude From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 18007 times:

I believe the EMB's are for SYD/CBR/SYD high density service.

Cheers,
onedude


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 17957 times:

this story has been around for a while..

fair use excerpt:

"the international arm of Virgin Blue, however, would be subject to Australia's foreign ownership restrictions. No more than 25% of a carrier can be owned by an individual foreign airline and no more than 35% by all foreign airlines, while foreign ownership is capped at 49%.

Services to the US probably would be launched with 747s leased from SIA, swapping to 777s once operational experience allowed ETOPS"**

** source:atwonline.com



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 38
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 17867 times:

Jacobin777,

The chances of Singapore Airlines being involved in the long haul Virgin Blue enterprise are said to less than zero by well placed persons in both Singapore and Australia.

The chances of Temasek Holdings, which is the major shareholder in Singapore Airlines, being involved said operation is more than zero, but I'm not sure by how much.

Antares


User currently offlineRichardJF From New Zealand, joined Mar 2001, 792 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 17556 times:

Quoting Antares (Reply 4):
Ask yourselves. Two by two in an Embraer, or line up and shut up and push and shove so you can get jammed into a Jetstar 320.

Good point!


User currently offlineJasond From Australia, joined Jul 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 16819 times:

Quoting Antares (Reply 10):
People back home think the 777-200LR rumor is wrong but that the Embraer rumor is plausible but at least an hour or so ago there was nothing from any of the proper channels to indicate confirmation or denial.

The EMB bit I could believe but the 777, I'm not sure. DJ have indicated a desire to extend internationally and sure their fleet of 737's makes them a sizable operator (most are leased BTW) but to operate a much larger aircraft over new routes like this would be a huge step for them surely. Could they launch this by themselves or would they require assistance from others?


User currently offlineCobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 1014 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days ago) and read 15807 times:

Can they afford to buy 777-200LR?

User currently offlineMig21UMD From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 269 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days ago) and read 15380 times:

Let this be a lesson for DJ


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sam Chui



I do not beleive DJ will have any fortune with flights to the US. Same goes for any other 'new kid' who tires to take on the Australia U.S. pacific block!



Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5244 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12589 times:

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 18):
Let this be a lesson for DJ

What is the lesson?

They are Virgin Atlantic beds which I ams ure we would see on DJ long haul USA services...

More like let it be a lesson to UA & QF..... DJ are coming.


User currently offlineBnamaxx From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12501 times:

Virgin Blue from Australia to the U.S. Next year AC starts LAX-SYD with their fifth freedom , right? Isn't the market getting overcrowded with carriers? Is SN going to try and go for approval again? What about EK?

User currently offlineCrossChecked From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 256 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11635 times:

The likes of DJ don't care that the market is becoming overcrowded, for they'll likely come in with prices so low that they'll take a massive chunk of the leisure sector. Any DJ service (though I doubt we'll see it) between the US and Australia will, I think, prove to be a big hit with the lower end of the leisure market - namely, backpackers and budget holidaymakers.

The prospect of an "explorer" ticket from the US to Aus and including maybe 5 domestic sectors through Australia, New Zealand and the SoPac is an exciting one.



Cabin crew, doors to manual and cross check.
User currently offlineBnamaxx From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11581 times:

Quoting Bnamaxx (Reply 20):
Is SN going to try and go for approval again?

My bad, meant SQ.


User currently offlineJohnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11562 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 3):
Surely the cheaper way to start regional services would be to buy Rex?

don't think so at all. first, i don't think that DJ is interested in 30-seat turboprop aircraft. there might be a market for such a service by Rex, but it doesn't allow for really low seat mile costs. i don't think that aircraft with less than 100 seats would catch the attention of DJ.

DJ must find a balance between low cost and regional service, something like Jetblue is trying with its EMB 190s.

Quoting Antares (Reply 10):
the Embraer rumor is plausible

it's more than rumor, more than a year ago, there have been brief articles in Flight International and ATW magazines.

Quoting Onedude (Reply 12):
I believe the EMB's are for SYD/CBR/SYD high density service.

unless DJ doesn't get one of those government deals, there is hardly no market for them to serve SYD-CBR as QF has got most of those kinds of contracts. that's why that route did not work out for DJ in the first place.

i think especially out west there are a number of markets which could be served by 100-seat Embraer jets. thinking of Kalgoorlie and Broome here.
also, those birds would allow to increase frequencies to other destinations, which in turn makes for a more attractive product for the business traveler.



If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25275 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11465 times:
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Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 23):
DJ must find a balance between low cost and regional service, something like Jetblue is trying with its EMB 190s.

Indeed. And so far, the Embraers have not been a happy financial story for JetBlue.

Hopefully, that will change - they are dealing with service between major cities. One wonders how may cities in Australia can sustain such service.

Your example of Broome is valid, but it already has mainline service, and has always been popular with tourists, in season.

Perhaps for many places, the thirty seater may be the optimum aircraft for Australian regional service.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
25 A342 : Maybe Virgin Pacific ?
26 Mariner : Um - Pacific Blue? That was set up for Virgin Blue's international services - NZ, Fji, Samoa, etc. Or - Polynesian Blue? cheers mariner
27 Jacobin777 : Antares, I'm not so sure if it really has any business to do with SQ directly...if SQ doesn't want to lease planes to DJ, then DJ might be able to get
28 A342 : Maybe. Definitely not.
29 Mariner : It may be a bit more than maybe, since they are - or were - unable to use the Virgin Blue name outside Australia. Which is why Pacific Blue was set u
30 MCOflyer : IF DJ starts service to the US, will F class exist? I'd imagine a C class. Btw, I hope Y is all leather. Will Jetstars be all leather? Hunter
31 Stitch : If DJ is interested in the 772LR, it strikes me they would want it because the model can carry a full load between Australia and the US where the 772E
32 Zeke : From what I hear the EMB will be given the nod, with an order of 9 being likely. Routes like Hobart-Newcastle will be the go. Pay, Capts slightly more
33 Antares : Stitch, I was told the MTOW at 38 C up to 45 C is not on at Sydney for the 777-200LR. At those temperatures I'm sure quite a few other flights would b
34 Unicorn : Hmmm, Embraer have been trying to sell the E170-195 family into Australia for a number of years. They have always seen QantasLink as the natural custo
35 HKGKaiTak : I remember reading this somewhere too, except the DJ staff quoted it was a toss-up between the A340 and 777 ... which does makes sense. I have though
36 Jacobin777 : More than long enough, even during the hot weather...
37 MCOflyer : { checkmark } If a 747-400 can get airborne with a full load, a 777LR can get airborne with a full load. MCOflyer
38 B787 : True, I recall reading in a thread on this web site that the 'Virgin' brand is not allowed to be employed on any other international carrier as per a
39 Jacobin777 : Would that be anything associated with the "Virgin" brand out of Australia, because we do see "Virgin" America.....granted it hasn't taken off yet, b
40 Antares : Jacobin777, More than long enough for this forum but not the carriers. Similar result when this forum declared the Worldliner capable of Sydney to Hea
41 MotorHussy : And there's currently quite a few A340's in the second hand market. Could be a great stop-gap until the 787 or A350. With regard to EMB E-Jets in Aus
42 Jacobin777 : Antares.. True, the -200LR didn't come close as originally planned the way QF wanted it...that being said..it was quite some time ago..as you properly
43 Antares : I would be interested to hear from fuel experts on the consequences for jets in and their fuel farms in particular when the external temperature reach
44 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I had that data a while ago, but I have no idea where I put it... maybe the websites of some of the engine manufacturers (or engine guru A.netters su
45 Zeke : Hotter is gets the SG reduces, less mass of fuel in the tank for a given volume, fuel cools in the climb and cruise, less volume, higher SG.
46 Antares : Thanks Jacobin, I will follow that up but not likely this week. Its a nagging question. I also think I misunderstood the take-off issue at Sydney, in
47 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I've been checking up on GE's website, haven't been able to find anything yet..but I sure would like to get some kind of graph of range/temp for diff
48 MotorHussy : Pacific Blue does not serve APW, Samoa. This is served by Polynesian Blue, the JV between Virgin Blue and the government of Samoa. BTW, I think Virgi
49 Post contains links Mariner : Yes, my mistake. The mind said Rarotonga, the fingers typed Samoa. I'm sure they think so too, but there remains the problem of Singapore Airlines. I
50 B787 : Ahh so they can't use the Virgin brand on international flights out of Australia. Thanks for clarifying that. Like I said, I had thought thought it w
51 Antares : The CEO of Virgin Blue Brett Godfrey told a briefing and phone in about an hour ago that the two candidate jets for the US services were the 777-300ER
52 Jasond : Antares, If I read your report correctly then could it be that the B7773 and A3406 'options' are a way off yet. I did make a comment earlier about tha
53 Jacobin777 : Thanks for the update Antares..kind of a bugger that Embraer wasn't mentioned...interesting that it is a battle between the 777-300ER versus the A340
54 Antares : I'll leave that to the tall guy. But that seems a reasonable conclusion to me, if somewhat boring for a bit of a dreamer like me.
55 Jasond : Nothing wrong with dreaming...
56 2wingtips : Any news from Godfrey on when a decision is likely? I can see merit in the 330, but coupled with the 346, it suddenly doesn't look so flash. Can Boein
57 Jupiter2 : I could see a fleet of 6 773ER's to start with, plus an order for 10 787's for the future. The 773ER's will do the initial trans Pacific runs and be u
58 Post contains images Mariner : Oh, I don't know. They wouldn't have any ETOPS issues with the 346 and they could steal a march on Qantas - start service to South America. Or one or
59 Antares : The last guidance I've seen is that it could take until the december board meeting. A short term lease has always been explicit in its comments about
60 2wingtips : Possibly, but their overall operating economics are below par compared to the 773ER. I don't think Godfrey would be too keen to embrace a 4-holer for
61 6thfreedom : Under the circumstances, i don't thing that B773ER would be 'misused in Asia. I think it provides the right balance, especially if you consider that
62 DJ738 : ...if you want to get technical, all PolynesianBlue services are operated by PacificBlue on behalf of PolynesianBlue... for all intents and purposes,
63 Yellowstone : If anything else, DJ opening up service to the US would answer the age-old question of whether a LCC can operate long-haul without completely sacrific
64 Antares : Yellowstone, It won't. DJ officially abandoned the LCC model for its self styled new world carrier model last November. It decided to go for a single
65 MotorHussy : Yes, but the aircraft with a separate and discreet livery is quite a differentiator. This, coupled with a: 49% ownership by the Samoan Government; 49
66 Post contains images Mariner : According to Antares - post #1 - he has said that he is considering it. And he'd get a good deal from Airbus - perhaps as an interim for the A350. Be
67 Zeke : I am hearing September, and EMB cannot get the aircraft mid next year as DJ want, more like end of next year. Hear international will not go any furt
68 Antares : Zeke, I was only referring to international as there has been no guidance about regional jets at all, and only vague references in the past to turbo-p
69 Unicorn : One issue is that there are bugger all 777's of any stripe available for lease anytime soon. There are some A340-500's available in the medium term bu
70 DJ738 : That aircraft you speak of is ZK-PBF and spends as much time flying PacificBlue routes as it does to PolynesianBlue destinations. All PacificBlue air
71 Scouseflyer : "No A346's are available anytime this side of 2008." Ahem - isn't Ek trying to dump 15 (?) places on the A346 production line these jets will be due t
72 MCOflyer : AC still has 2 345 that will be avalible in 2007. So maybe DJ could get these. MCOflyer
73 Stitch : Kinda sounds like UA and Ted...
74 ANstar : My money is on the A340-600 and that they will be sub leased from Virgin Atlantic. More code share routes for both airlines pax? Especially if DJ go
75 A342 : Could be true, but I didn't want to get technical. I just mean the brand "Polynesian Blue" is not suitable for an Australia-USA service. It has no co
76 Post contains images Camille38 : we can expect an amazing beautiful livery both for the jungle jets and 777 or 340 if Virgin Blue acquires some...
77 Post contains links Mariner : That appears to be one of the strengths of the relationship. The strongest ties - economic, cutlural, social - exist between NZ and Samoa. The words
78 MotorHussy : But I thought Airbus were doing their darndest to find a carrier for EK's cancelled/delayed A346's? Or did I have the wrong end of the stick? Regards
79 Jasond : Errr, I think we may have a technical 'hitch' here. The Reply # quoted above is attributed to me but I did not make that comment. I believe Jacobin77
80 Turkee : Those jets would be perfect, but no good for Kalgoorlie. Like Karratha, Kalgoorlie has a lot of mining projects supporting the local industry. These
81 OldAeroGuy : The A346 wings are quite different than those used on the A330/A343. This also applies to quite alot of the A346 systems/equipment. This destroys the
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