Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers  
User currently offlineStyle From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 263 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16364 times:

USA Today has the following article posted on the travel section of its website:

NWA attendants may give fliers warnings before walkouts

Northwest Airlines' flight attendants union says it will alert travelers by e-mail before it stages the surprise walkouts it has threatened, the Detroit Free Press reports. “But don't expect much notice,” the paper adds. “The notice could be as much as a couple of hours if the union plans a full-scale walkout or short as 20 minutes -- after passengers are already at the airport -- if the union plans to strike one flight,” the paper writes, citing Association of Flight Attendants (AFA) spokesman Ricky Thornton. The AFA’s website warns that “CHAOS is coming,” but adds that the union “will endeavor to provide as much notice as possible but cannot guarantee that the notice will prevent all disruptions to your travel plans." The site also has a sign-up for a “passenger e-mail alert” that ask for fliers’ names, e-mail addresses and departure airports.

"It's an attempt to win the public's support while you're doing something that the public would be very much inconvenienced by," Gary Chaison, a professor of management at Clark University in Worcester, Mass., explains to the Free Press. Beginning as early as this Friday, Northwest’s attendants union has threatened to create targeted work disruptions known as CHAOS, or Create Havoc Around Our System. Such “mini-strikes” would be unannounced, and could affect certain flights, cities or dates. The strategy allows most attendants to keep working, but also brings a threat that the union hopes is severe enough to force management’s hand. ----- END


Definitely a sympathy tactic. Things look like they are about to get intense.

170 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16320 times:

Quoting Style (Thread starter):
It's an attempt to win the public's support while you're doing something that the public would be very much inconvenienced by

Sorry, the attempt won't work to win my support, next.

Will they also send e-mails to my clients telling them why I'm late for my meetings?

Will they reimburse me for my lost time on the job?

Will they remember that I am a customer?


I'm sorry, but I can not be sympathetic to your cause right now.

I'm putting on my flame suit now.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16291 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
I'm sorry, but I can not be sympathetic to your cause right now.

I'm putting on my flame suit now.

I am surprised considering you yourself were a former FA and having walked in there shoes could and would feel there pain.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1553 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16291 times:

Oh great............

Is it possible for them to negotiate just ONE MORE TIME?

They're not going to get sympathy.
They're going to get distaste.



The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16265 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 2):
I am surprised considering you yourself were a former FA and having walked in there shoes could and would feel there pain.

That was 20 years ago, times have changed.

It would be a different issue if the airlines survival was not a question.

NW can not afford this type of action and union mentality in an era of instability.

I'm sorry, I think they are making a strategic mistake.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16207 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
That was 20 years ago, times have changed.

Back then it was New York Air the non union low cost carrier putting the screws to the major airlines.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16207 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 5):
Back then it was New York Air the non union low cost carrier putting the screws to the major airlines.

I don't think NY was big enough to have been much of an issue.


User currently offlineMikey711MN From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1395 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16192 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 2):
I am surprised considering you yourself were a former FA and having walked in there shoes could and would feel there pain.

...and given that amount of pain, many have similarly decided that enough was enough and gone on to do other things.

This group of FA's have a vendetta against NW for what they believe they are entitled to, not for what they are necessarily worth in the current marketplace. At risk of speaking for Dtwclipper here, others likely see their own value in a given marketplace and determine it relative to other companies (who may value it/them more) or other industries (whereby new careers begin with greater potential) and choose accordingly.

This group seems unwilling to face that microeconomic decision and, worse yet, seems more willing to cut off the nose and spite the face of NW before they have to. It's sad really.

-Mike



I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
User currently offlineAA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2300 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16145 times:

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 3):
Is it possible for them to negotiate just ONE MORE TIME?

It's up to the company now CX.

Until NW brings something to the table again, then this will keep going.



"The low fares airline."
User currently offlineKabAir From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 245 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16087 times:

NW Customers to warn Flight Attendents (AP - Shaystown, ID)

The customers union today made the annoucement that it will give flight attendents warning of their possible impending action to inact CHAYS (Create Havoc Around Your System) in response to the lousy service and threats of strikes. Said spokesman Bob Smith "We will try to give the flight attendents 2 hours notice where possible, but notice may be as short as 5 seconds". The objective of CHAYS is for passengers to fake medical emergencies while in flight, thus forcing numerous flights (and flight attendents) to make unscheduled stops in randsom places and delaying flight attendents from making it home from their trips.

Said Spokesman Smith, "We truly regret resorting to these tactics as we know it will hurt flight attendents and their families, but at some point enough is enough. We the customers are tired of strike threats by various work groups and by golly if we're not making it to our destinations on time, then neither are the flight attendents. We demand a fair trip and it's in the flight attendents court now".

CHAYS is expected to begin as soon as August 25th. The Customers Union has advised Northwest Flight Attendents to carry extra cash in case they need to buy extra meals, rent a car to get home, etc.

****



wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
User currently offlineCarduelis From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2001, 1585 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16076 times:

Interesting to hear that the Flight Attendants will email their affected passengers.

How do they get hold of their email addresses?

Wildcat, or 'unannounced' strikes are illegal in UK - only official strikes are permitted, with advice of notice of such.

I was a member of a number of unions throughout my varied career in aviation, and we never had any disputes in my time.

Interesting that the strike laws changed in UK in Mrs Thatcher's time in office, (for the better as they haven't been amended) strongly supported by Norman Tebbit, who before becoming a Member of Parliament was BA Captain and Union representative for the pilot's union BALPA.

He later became Lord Tebbit.



Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6661 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16009 times:

Quoting KabAir (Reply 9):
CHAYS (Create Havoc Around Your System)

 rotfl 

Not a bad idea!!!

Turnabout is fair play. The NW FAs are bluffing anyhow....it's all smoke.


User currently offlineIAirAllie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 2 days ago) and read 15860 times:

Quoting Carduelis (Reply 10):
Wildcat, or 'unannounced' strikes are illegal in UK - only official strikes are permitted, with advice of notice of such

This does not count as a wildcat strike. A strike vote has been cast and a judge ruled they were free to strike.


User currently offlineMSPGUY From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 2 days ago) and read 15819 times:

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 7):

agree 100%



If it ain't broke, DON'T touch it!!!!
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 15686 times:

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 12):
A strike vote has been cast and a judge ruled they were free to strike.

NO, HE DID NOT. HE RULED THAT HE DID NOT HAVE JURISDICTION OVER THE ISSUE.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineSquid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 15604 times:

NWA employees never cease to amaze me. Do they not realize that NWA is in bankruptsy? CHAOS is the last thing they should be doing to their company. If these FA's had half a brain, they would thank NWA management for TA1. Not only is TA1 fair in my opinion, I think NWA gave the FA's to much. THEY ARE JUST FLIGHT ATTENDANTS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Does anyone else get this. FA's do not require any significant education, or require any special skills and most FA's are the second income to their household. FA's don't deserve to make $50,000 per year, their main task is pouring drinks, and most treat that like a chore. Sure they check safety equipment, but that takes what, maybe 10 min. Fast food employee's work harder than flight attendants, especially now since most airlines no longer serve meals.

Has anyone taken the time to review TA1, the one they voted down by 80%? You can see the whole thing at www.nwaafa.org. Not only does this TA1 preserve their international positions, it also limits the size of AC that can be flown by Compass. Those reasons alone should be enough for the FA's to be greatful. I personally would have been very happy to see NWA hire most of their trans-pac FA's from Asia. NWA would then finally be able to provide service comparable to the major Asian airlines with which they compete against. I also feel that NWA should have pushed harder for the definition of a regional jet to be an aircraft that seats up to 100 passengers in order to allow Compass to fly the ERJ-190 as well as the 170. It really only makes good business sense. But NWA caved to the FA's and what do their FA's do to show their gratitude, they vote NO.

So here is their hourly inflight payscale, which NWA says is actually better than United's or USAir's.

DOS 1/1/07 1/1/08 1/1/09 1/1/10 1/1/11
1st Year $17.20 $17.46 $17.63 $17.81 $17.99 $18.35
2nd Year 18.53 18.81 19.00 19.19 19.38 19.77
3rd Year 19.83 20.13 20.33 20.53 20.74 21.15
4th Year 21.11 21.43 21.64 21.86 22.08 22.52
5th Year 22.82 23.16 23.39 23.62 23.86 24.34
6th Year 26.37 26.77 27.04 27.31 27.58 28.13
7th Year 28.90 29.33 29.62 29.92 30.22 30.82
8th Year 32.05 32.53 32.86 33.19 33.52 34.19
9th Year 32.38 32.87 33.20 33.53 33.87 34.55
10th Year 34.41 34.93 35.28 35.63 35.99 36.71
11th Year 35.17 35.70 36.06 36.42 36.78 37.52
12th Year 36.06 36.60 36.97 37.34 37.71 38.46
13th Year 37.15 37.71 38.09 38.47 38.85 39.63
14th Year 38.22 38.79 39.18 39.57 39.97 40.77
15th Year 38.79 39.37 39.76 40.16 40.56 41.37

per-diem is $1.65, lead pay is $1.65 and purser pay is and extra $5.00
All of this is better than United or USAir.

This contract really is a lot to look at, but I have pretty much reviewed the whole thing, and I honestly don't see why they are mad. If I were the CEO of NWA, their contract would have been much leaner, and ALL Trans-Pac flight would be staffed with Asian women that can speak several languages, enjoy serving, and all would be under 50 years old. If this is their contract AFTER 195 million in concession, which I realize includes cuts other than pay, than in my opinion, NWA FA's have been overpaid by at least 195 million for the past five years.

But what really gets me about the NWA flight attendants is they are trying to get support from their customers. And many customers are giving them support, but they have no idea how decient the FA's contract actually is. Instead, the ungrateful flight attendants run to the media and completely mis-represent the good intentions NWA had when distributing the booklet on money saving tips. And the FA's cry to the customer that NWA has take over %30 of their compensation and they have to work X amout of extra hours and Blah, Blah, Blah. But if the customer could see the whole contract I doubt many would side with the FA's. This is the very reason I detest unions. In America, we are free to work where we want. And if you don't like what your employeer is willing to pay you, than do the American thing and quit. Unions do nothing but keep wages inflated, and force the employer into paying more than the job calls for. GOOD LUCK NWA, your almost 2 for 2.

[Edited 2006-08-22 23:04:13]

[Edited 2006-08-22 23:04:38]

[Edited 2006-08-22 23:06:37]

User currently onlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5686 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 15568 times:

Quoting Squid (Reply 15):
THEY ARE JUST FLIGHT ATTENDANTS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Does anyone else get this. FA's do not require any significant education, or require any special skills and most FA's are the second income to their household. FA's don't deserve to make $50,000 per year, their main task is pouring drinks, and most treat that like a chore. Sure they check safety equipment, but that takes what, maybe 10 min. Fast food employee's work harder than flight attendants, especially now since most airlines no longer serve meals.

You forgot something called safety.

If you have a heart attack, who is going to help you get your heart beat back? If you are having trouble breathing, whos going to help you with that? If the plane crashed and you need help evacuating, who helps you with that?

Trust me, as soon as an emergency occurs, these F/A will jump and THEN their real job will take over and they will do whatever they can to help save as many lives as possible. THATS where the 50,000 dollars you state they don't deserve, actually IS deserved. Plus these F/A are traveling, away from home, people, family, friends, these fast food workers you state work say 8am to 9pm home at night and go to bed with friends and family, the F/A don't.

So these F/A absolutely require "special skills" They absolutely do what they can to help comfort you, sure they pour drinks but their real job comes when there is an emergency.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineUtapao From Thailand, joined Jul 2005, 645 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 15503 times:

Quoting Carduelis (Reply 10):
Interesting to hear that the Flight Attendants will email their affected passengers.

How do they get hold of their email addresses?

Good questionn, Carduelis. They would have no access to the passenger information.

Or is it just a PR ploy to win the public's support?

I would be ticked off to find my email from my PNR was available to anyone.

Hope it all works out to the benefit of the travelers!



Sawasdee khrab!
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 15503 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16):
So these F/A absolutely require "special skills"

Sorry Alex, but if that were the case, anyone who's ever taken a CPR class and can scream "GET OUT!" would be able to command a wage premium. Their "special skills" just aren't special... or scarce. Squid has it right.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineAdh214 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 357 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 15503 times:

The one thing I don't understand about FA pay is why an FA with nine years of experience is paid twice what a new FA is paid? (according to the chart in Squid's post) Is an FA with nine years of experience twice as productive as a first year FA? Is an FA with nine years of experience twice as polite and customer service oriented as a new FA?

I can understand this in other industries where experience produces a more productive employee (such as engineering, research or law). I would propose that an FA with six months of experience probably has learned the job and is just as productive as one with nine years of experience. So why does the pay increase so much with experience?

Andrew


User currently offlineKabAir From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 245 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 15503 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16):
You forgot something called safety.

If you have a heart attack, who is going to help you get your heart beat back? If you are having trouble breathing, whos going to help you with that?

So they know CPR and how to use and AED. That's about 4 hours of training right there. Most of the EMT's I've worked with in the past were LUCKY to make $30,000 a year (the ones that weren't volunteers that is) and they probably see just a few more emergencies per year than the FA's who you think deserve $50,000 because of their ability to perform a task that many 10 year olds know how to do, and to act in another sort of an emergency that will most likely never happen. Most firefighters don't make $50,000 per year. Think about that one.



Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16):
Plus these F/A are traveling, away from home, people, family, friends, these fast food workers you state work say 8am to 9pm home at night and go to bed with friends and family, the F/A don't

Wait, I took this job as an FA and you mean I have to travel?!?! How the heck was I supposed to know that was part of the job?

Not knocking FA's here, but if they are worth $50,000 a year then the EMT's I see around should be making about $300,000.



wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
User currently offlineMptpa From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 541 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 15458 times:

Quoting Style (Thread starter):
It's an attempt to win the public's support while you're doing something that the public would be very much inconvenienced by

By giving me 2 hours of notice is going to help me? How? They are not going to get my sympathy at all, just the opposite. I have a flight on Aug 27 to VIE from DTW, and I hope they do not f**k up my schedule... I had been a NWA loyal flier for 13 years, and they will not get my sympathy for anything.

Quoting Carduelis (Reply 10):
How do they get hold of their email addresses?

They want you to go tot their website, put your name, flight and date as well as email addr so they can give you the puny 2 hours-20 minutes notice and they think it is supposed to help you.... Bloody hell I say.

Quoting Squid (Reply 15):
. FA's don't deserve to make $50,000 per year, their main task is pouring drinks, and most treat that like a chore.

Get ready, you are going to get flamed. However, I agree with your thinking... A high schooler with no real skills or training can be a FA with minimal training and they reject $50K.... I had to endure 20 years+ schooling and then still some... Any NWA FA's here...... come on guys and gals... you guys are playing with fire.... McDonalds is not opening that many outlets in the midwest....


User currently offlineMikey711MN From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1395 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 15428 times:

As much as I'd like not to debate the merits of FA's, the issue of value-added roles is at the root of the restructuring going on amongst all business groups in airline companies today, so a few of your comments need to be addressed...

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16):
If you have a heart attack, who is going to help you get your heart beat back? If you are having trouble breathing, whos going to help you with that?

With all due respect, the notion that a FA is the most qualified, able-bodied individual to provide assistance in medical emergencies on an airplane is absolutely preposterous. To answer your questions more directly, "just about anyone who knows CPR will help you". So there's no real value-added here.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16):
If the plane crashed and you need help evacuating, who helps you with that?

Yes, the execution of the evacuation plan is the responsibility of the FA's: to direct and assist (where physically practical) passengers to exit the aircraft in an ordered, safe fashion. However, is this a frequent enough occurence to be considered a value-added to the paying customer? Unlikely. And are these skills considered of high demand relative to their availability in the marketplace. Again, IMHO this is unlikely too. So to the question of value-added in this circumstance, it is marginal at best.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16):
Plus these F/A are traveling, away from home, people, family, friends, these fast food workers you state work say 8am to 9pm home at night and go to bed with friends and family, the F/A don't.

Two questions: (1) how were these sacrifices previously unknown to the FA at time of application when determining individually what the value of one's own time is? and (2) why, as a paying customer, do I care?

(I truthfully don't mean to sound callous here, but I'm not sure if the plight/sacrifices made by those in the service industry to whom I am paying some compensation has ever been considered as some value to me, nor do I think that it's in the prevalent consciousness of anyone who pays money to fly.)

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16):
So these F/A absolutely require "special skills" They absolutely do what they can to help comfort you, sure they pour drinks but their real job comes when there is an emergency.

Then I'm sorry, but based on my quick analysis above, the FA's don't appear to have much of a value-added at all (short of a dire emergency) to justify a wage that is ostensibly higher than what the market/company can bear.

IMO, if the FA's are going to base their value arguments on events that have an infinitesimally small chance of occuring, then the average paying customer is going to have an equal chance (read: nearly zero) of accepting their role in the airline and to pay a premium for said service.

Respectfully,
-Mike



I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
User currently offlineMarkabcan From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 15372 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16):
If you have a heart attack, who is going to help you get your heart beat back? If you are having trouble breathing, whos going to help you with that?

Ummm, that's a doctor, not a FA! Squid is absolutely correct, FAs are unskilled workers, yet they expect to be paid like professionals with substantial education and/or training. Not going to happen, your only paid what your worth in this world! I understand its a emotional situation but it is very simple, unskilled worker = salary of unskilled worker!


User currently onlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5686 posts, RR: 52
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 15309 times:

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 22):
With all due respect, the notion that a FA is the most qualified, able-bodied individual to provide assistance in medical emergencies on an airplane is absolutely preposterous. To answer your questions more directly, "just about anyone who knows CPR will help you". So there's no real value-added here.

You have to assume there ARE no doctors on board or anyone physically able to help out, so thats why the F/A are trained, with the assumption no one else on board knows how to.

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 22):
However, is this a frequent enough occurence to be considered a value-added to the paying customer? Unlikely. And are these skills considered of high demand relative to their availability in the marketplace. Again, IMHO this is unlikely too. So to the question of value-added in this circumstance, it is marginal at best.

It isn't freqeunt enough no, but it does and can, and will happen in future flights. Not so much as crashes, but more landing incidents and runway run offs.

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 22):
Two questions: (1) how were these sacrifices previously unknown to the FA at time of application when determining individually what the value of one's own time is? and (2) why, as a paying customer, do I care?

I understand these F/A KNOW this when they try for the job, but I am stating its hard to compare a F/A working endless nights, and being away from home so much as opposed to a fast food worker who may work hard, dont get me wrong, but they are not away from home so much as the F/A and that sort of thing

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 23):
Ummm, that's a doctor, not a FA!

Again, as I stated above you HAVE to assume there are NO doctors on board, while the chances are very high of their being a doctor or SOMEONE who knows CPR, why make the passengers have to deal with that? They paid to fly from A to B not to help save someones life, hence the F/A jobs correct? Yes it would be nice and respectful if a passenger got up to help assist the F/A, and I agree it is the right thing to do, but again this job relies on the F/A and thats why they were put on board.

Quoting KabAir (Reply 20):

Would have thought the training would be higher. I do also think Firefighters and EMT's should also be paid higher as well. But the argument is F/A not these workers.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
25 Squid : And one last thing I want to add here is that I really hope NWA wins their appeal and prevents the FA's from CHAOS, then as punishment NWA demands 250
26 Mikey711MN : Alex, I guess what I'm encouraging for you--and indeed FA's at large in this situation--is to better pick your battles. If you're going to hang your h
27 LMP737 : Now there's a sure fire way to motivate a work force, punishment!!!!!!!
28 TVNWZ : Roger, that! Their pain is partially self-induced. The union shopping spree the flight attendants went on did more harm than good and weakened their
29 Dolinja777 : For a second I felt a tiny bit better after hearing about this email alert and went to the NW AFA site to register. I thought they might ask about a f
30 777fan : Great news (sarcasm). You can tell they're really doing their best to help their employer survive (more sarcasm). I'm hoping that, should NW be liquid
31 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Rather than being liquidated, I hope all parties come through and solve this situation...NW has a bright future if they can get their cards in order.
32 777fan : That is always the hope, however, FAs warning pax of chaos tactics will no doubt force a good number to consider other alternatives, something that's
33 Mattmsp767 : If these FA's feel they have such great skills then they should quit and go work for a company where they feel they can be compensated to their satisf
34 Ben330NWA : WOW. I'm actually surprised as to what most of the comments are in here. It is a very complicated situation that the FA's are in right now. Like I sta
35 Swissy : You have a point however that is the whole dilemma they are their own victims because of the unions, all their experience, seniority means sh.. at AA
36 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I agree...I'll check the NW flyer talk board to see what some reactions of the FF's are.... That being said, I don't have a problem with them strikin
37 AndrewUber : When will employees realize that keeping a job with a bankrupt airline requires sacrifice?!? Union workers want fairness, but the only thing they are
38 Bicoastal : I'm hoping they do start CHAOS and have some sort of job action. Seeing how the labor union members at all of the other now or once bankrupt legacies
39 Ben330NWA : I think they have sacrificed a lot. And not to mention they sacrificed way more than they should have only because the company was breathing down the
40 Tockeyhockey : i love how nwa is allowed to threaten to liquidate, threaten to completely bust the union, threaten to take away all pensions, but when a union tries
41 Etops1 : i was gonna say that but then i would probrably be sent to the cornfield. but i agree with you 1,000% "we're nuts"
42 TVNWZ : It is indeed complicated. But, the complication comes because many just will not accept that the position of the airline in bankruptcy nullifies anyt
43 AndrewUber : My question is - why would they choose a 100% paycut by starting CHAOS?
44 Luvfa : I think people have missed the point here! Everybody is blaming the NWA FA's for this predicament. The fact is they are well within their right to str
45 Dtwclipper : That would be fine and dandy it the industry was not in the shape it was in. Again, this is 2006, not 1970, '80 or even 1990. The world has changed.
46 Ben330NWA : I believe that my former co-workers have realized where the company is at this point, but have Steenland and the rest who make the big bucks realized
47 Post contains images Laxatljfkcvg : Obliviously you live in Detroit and you dont want to leave the side of your pooor!NWA.
48 TVNWZ : And the irony here is the winners will most likely be the upper management these people hate. In fact, Steenland would probably make a lot more money
49 Dtwclipper : This from an: Occupation: unemployed, Age: 13-15 Come back when you grow up and have something to say, and oh a job!
50 Ben330NWA : Let us not forget that under PFAA the negotiating team changed on a consistent basis, sometimes every two weeks, without member imput. The first TA t
51 Ben330NWA : I seriously wish he AND his team would seek employment somewhere else so NWA and the labor groups can begin to clean up this mess.
52 TVNWZ : Well, it changed with the input of the officers you VOTED to make those decisions. This is probably as called for in your union by-laws. Again, this
53 Ben330NWA : AGAIN what I don't think your understanding is that under PFAA the officers and the negotiating team changed CONSISTENTLY without members voting on w
54 AndrewUber : You are missing the point. CHAOS = disrupting an already flailing NW = liquidation = 100% paycut for the allmighty union FA's. How is that a logical
55 Ben330NWA : They aren't going to liquidate anytime soon. They just posted a 295 million operating profit for the quarter that ended on June 30. The unions especi
56 Squid : Have they never heard of a company becoming more productive. This is the new airline environment, and airlines like NWA are now competing with airlin
57 Ben330NWA : LOL...NWA "caved" into the flight attendants demands??? That's a first. And that pay scale wasn't the problem. It was the work rules. Compare TA1 wit
58 Ben330NWA : Yes that's EXACTLY what is going to attract new workers....a high turnover rate. Absolutely absurd. And on another note, when did the flight attendan
59 Jano : I think the difference here is that FAs had preferred stock while executives had common stock. Different rules apply to them when sold.
60 Dc10cf6 : Who cares you wont be able to get a coke
61 Post contains images Ben330NWA : You could if you're flying to Asia.
62 Lucky42 : That's right the difference is that preferred stock is supposed to protect the employee in the event that the stock price falls which it did and when
63 Danild : Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't that about 5 flying hours a day on a five day week or about 2 flights of about 2 1/2 hours each a day???
64 Post contains images SHUPirate1 : Not quite...all they tell you to do is input your first and last name, e-mail, and home airport. So, as the enthusiast I am, I signed up myself with
65 We're Nuts : Have you ever tried it?
66 Ben330NWA : It doesn't work that way. There are FAR's that have to be upheld in regards to flying. US based flight attendants CANNOT fly more than 24 hours in 7
67 IAirAllie : I think you've got that a bit mixed up there. The 24 in 7, or 32 in 7(as it was known at AA) rules are contractual not CFR's thats why in many cases
68 Panamair : So does anyone have any updates regarding the situation? Are both sides even talking at this point?
69 IAirAllie : Seems harmless enough but 100 hours of flying is only the airtime (door shut/pushback- door open/blockin). It does not count the sign-in of at least
70 BHXFAOTIPYYC : Well here in Europe we're suffering from endless messages about cutting costs, the need for more efficiency and producivity, the need to save money fo
71 Post contains links We're Nuts : CFR 121.471, no more than 30 scheduled hours in 7 consecutive days. http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part121-471-FAR.shtml
72 AirTran717 : I tell ya. All this bantering back and forth is pointless. UNless you have done the job, you can't really call it like it is. I was an f/a for eight y
73 AirTran717 : I'll say this as well... If you have been a NW customer, either loyally or otherwise and you continue to choose to fly them during this, you have no r
74 Dtwclipper : I most certainly do. Why is it that you forget that, I the customer, who travels weekly on full fare tickets pay the salaries of NW employees.
75 We're Nuts : If you alone are handling that burden, the FA's should have gone on strike a long time ago.
76 AirTran717 : You have been given fair warning, haven't you? Yes. So you can't show up for a flight and have a problem related to this and then complain. You could
77 AirTran717 : Funny We're Nuts. Funny. Thank you!
78 Dtwclipper : Why should I be inconvienenced? Ok, who else will get me to Lexington from Detroit for a sameday meeting? I don't have an option. I have to work, and
79 Luv2fly : DL via CVG for one. People who live in non hub cities make connections all the time. NW wanted to won and dominate DTW and they do, now like Mom alwa
80 Dtwclipper : Did that once, very hard to do in a single day. That's nice to know.
81 We're Nuts : Yeah, that's a Pinnacle flight. Not Northwest.
82 AirTran717 : Well, I still maintain that with all this media attention it's getting, you have had more than enough time to make other arrangements. Like I said, I
83 Post contains images TWFirst : NO, NO, A THOUSAND TIMES NO. THE JUDGE RULED THAT HE DID NOT HAVE JURISDICTION TO RULE THAT THEY COULD NOT STRIKE. That's completely illogical... say
84 Dtwclipper : It's both Pinnacle and XJ. Why should I be inconvinced? Why should I fly on another airline where I don't have elite status and no FF programme?
85 Luv2fly : The truth comes out!
86 Dtwclipper : Damn straight.
87 Post contains images Airlinelover : Here's hoping you fall deathly ill in-flight and no one ares because the FA's are too busy providing drinks. Arrogant prick.. Laxatljfkcvg- You, sir,
88 AirTran717 : Okay, you guys are just getting rude now. Come on! No, I agree with all of your points. But do you think it's ok to get paid at or below the industry
89 We're Nuts : Neither of which are involved, so your flights to LEX are safe!
90 AirTran717 : Is NWA the only carrier in this big country. NO. Go figure that you can actually choose for yourself. And as for PFC's, I suspect that NW would waive
91 AirTran717 : I'll explain the PFC's... also known as passenger facility charges... also known as change fees, etc. I think they would be gracious enough to waive a
92 AirTran717 : So, I pose this argument to you... Have you ever worked for a company in which you did not agree with how and what they were doing... either to it's e
93 LMP737 : Have you ever heard of good employee relations. Do you think it's a coincidence that airlines like SWA have good employee relations AND make money?
94 Azstagecoach : This is one of the funniest things I've read on A.net, ever. Can other F/A's give perspective on this? Is it high or low? Again how does this compare
95 AirTran717 : Yes, why is it that the companies with the worst financial situations also seem to have the worst relationships with its employees? There is an obviou
96 Monkeyboi : Wow im honestly shocked by the dim view the US has for FA's. Ive worked for a British airline for ten years now and in that time i have had to deal wi
97 AirTran717 : AZstagecoach has it pretty much spot on. NW payscale is higher than AirTran's but consider their ages and relative clout in the industry, not to menti
98 AirTran717 : Thanks Monkeyboi... A little respect for what we do and are trained to do. That's all. That's what I was trying to say earlier. We give Cokes with Smi
99 We're Nuts : It's on the lower end of average. WN starts at $18.10, for comparison. Crew rest is pretty standard throughout the industry because it is regulated b
100 Ckfred : I was talking to friend of mine who is a pilot with AA. He feels that if the F/As do some CHAOS action, it could drive NW into Chapter 7, because peop
101 Monkeyboi : In the UK edition of the 'Daily Mail' yesterday (22nd AUG) there was a league of 300 jobs and their salaries. Cabin Crew came 221 out of 300. Overpaid
102 APFPilot1985 : How, when it is something that anybody can do after going through a short company training course.
103 AirTran717 : Yes, it;'s not as simple as going from one similar office job to another. You have training, whether you have been an airline employee before or not.
104 AirTran717 : APF, I won't even bother with a response to this. Tell me, how much respect do you get from your f/a crews with an attitude like that? AND, I can fly
105 We're Nuts : And what do you do?
106 APFPilot1985 : At the moment I am in corporate aviation, nothing big deal grinding out the hour building for little money, while i finish college
107 AirTran717 : It takes a special person who is uniquely suited to living out of a suitcase to do this job. It's not rocket science, but no, not every can do this jo
108 APFPilot1985 : Now there is a huge assumption without knowing anything about me. Great attitude do you give that to a customer when they say something you don't lik
109 AirTran717 : Well, you don't pay my salary. The customers do. And since we are all cooped up in a tube, with passengers as well as each other, I would have expecte
110 APFPilot1985 : You mean the customers that others in your profession are screwing because they think that they deserve something that they don't
111 AirTran717 : And what is it you think you deserve? I have an experienced insight into this debate. I worked in the trenches for 8 years, for a company who nearly e
112 We're Nuts : Yeah, I've been a pilot too. It's not hard, so get your head out of the clouds. I chose to be a flight attendant because I wanted to keep my options
113 APFPilot1985 : taking a couple of lessons doesnt make you a pilot. Talking about models of a/c and what not is something that many pilots I know aren't interested i
114 AirTran717 : And what is considered a decent living? Are flight attendants compared to gas station attendants? That's all they want, is to make a living and suppor
115 Mikey711MN : Fair enough. But to all of you who are trying to earn respect within either the public domain or amongst your airline industry peers, just saying "it
116 Isitsafenow : Excuse me, but the PFC goes to the AIRPORT. They will not waive it.. They need the rev. safe
117 APFPilot1985 : IF YOU DON"T LIKE THE PAY LEAVE. No one forces you to work for anything. You quit, you don't try to take other peoples jobs with you.
118 We're Nuts : Who's making assumptions now? Aircraft systems are also not hard. The manuals explain them very simply I think.
119 AirTran717 : Now you wanna talk about a job that doesn't need a lot of brain power... gate agents. But I respect them. They have a tougher job than any flight atte
120 AirTran717 : And for a college educated "pilot", I would expect correct spelling and grammar. "... a through explanation..."??? Shouldn't that be thorough?
121 Post contains images Swissy : I did something...... I left the company and moved on........ Agree even I do not agree with the NW f/a's lets try to keep it down, as I appreciate e
122 Isitsafenow : I do respect airline employees because I used to be one..three times. I have much more repect for a mechanic. If the airlines can convince the FAA th
123 APFPilot1985 : Go look at a 757 manual and tell me that the electrical control system is simple. Thanks for the personal Attack, a typo however is hardly and indica
124 AirTran717 : I apologize to all in this forum for my last post. Swissy is right. We f/a's that are posting here today to give a better picture of what's going on o
125 Post contains images AirTran717 : And, it's not just evacuations we train for. We train for medical emergencies. We train to fight fires. Now we get self defense training. We have to k
126 Markabcan : Yes it does[Edited 2006-08-23 19:10:17]
127 APFPilot1985 : I can assure you Pilot training is a lot more, and guess what most of it we had to pay for by ourselves.
128 AirTran717 : And APF, I'm not saying it didn't cost you money. I'm not saying your training did not entail a lot more. But that doesn't make our's any less importa
129 APFPilot1985 : Airtran you are missing the point of my posts. I am saying that the easiest workforce of an airline to replace is the one who is making the most noise
130 TVNWZ : Here is a brutal fact: the dynamics of the flight attendant position have changed such that it is becoming a part-time job. It is not a career. It is
131 AirTran717 : I see your point. But I don't agree. I have been on both sides of this, as an f/a and in management for the company. I was on both sides. What constit
132 AirTran717 : TVN, all very well put. But it's not just industry economics at play here... it's individual companies and their management. It's high overhead and lo
133 AirTran717 : And I can't speak for any other carriers, but when I went through training, I got a $20 a day stipend. You called that a company paid training? I know
134 TVNWZ : Actually, EVERY employee needs to accept this.
135 Post contains images Swissy : TVN However I prefer china and full meal...... (dying dinosaur) Agree , I started in the late 80's and I had my fare share of dealing with people from
136 Post contains images MaverickM11 : What kind of knucklehead do you have to be to think "we're not getting the money we want from our broke-bankrupt carrier, so we're going to warn the p
137 KabAir : Wow, this thread has gotten long. So here's where I'm at: I can understand why it would suck to take pay cuts. And I can understand why FA's might fee
138 DTW757 : I think if the Northwest flight attendants don't like what Northwest now has to offer them, move on and stop being miserable at their jobs. After flyi
139 AirTran717 : Well, it's proving that some things will never change. And some people just couldn't possibly understand unless they have done the job. So, here I tak
140 KabAir : So then why do FA's constantly think it is not audacious of them to say that upper management is not worth what they are paid? And my question still
141 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Pilots have a loooooooooooot of time on their hands up there in the cockpit to ponder the origin of their navel and imagine ways to run a better airl
142 777fan : Okay, I posted in this thread a while back but have basically ignored the pilot vs FA banter until now. I will preface my posting by stating that I am
143 AirTran717 : Well, to go back on my word, this is my final post here today... I did leave the airline. For my children as a matter of fact. I do make a better livi
144 777fan : That stock could prove to be worthless so your point is moot. There are more FAs and ground crew, etc. on the payroll so naturally, the bigger part o
145 MSNtriathlete : This is why, as a former elite member of Worldperks, and living in the middle of NW's midwestern superfortress where they provide a great deal of conv
146 Swissy : You spoke from my heart.......... and that's what it is all about it, they are NWA they can make it work or brake it (would be a shame) we had to man
147 Style : Very well said. Wrong in my opinion. Southwest is considered a LCC and has the highest paid flight attendants in the industry. Its economics to a cer
148 TVNWZ : Still economics...different expense and profit model. I do not believe the legacy airline unions would take too well with many of the WN efficient wo
149 Isitsafenow : Maybe thats because they have made a profit for the past 25-30 years. I do believe that is the reason. That would have something to do with a compani
150 Style : Are you serious??? The point is moot because they could be worthless??? Let me take a breather for a minute...............Oh wait, Yeah, thats it I g
151 Tango-Bravo : Nothing wrong with becoming more productive. However, for that to ever happen it is legacy airline management, and marketing in particular, who need
152 Airnewzealand : Funny How you put ALL flight attendants in the same role... For what i do...i sure as hell deserve the pay packet, flight attendant or not... On ALL m
153 NASCARAirforce : I agree. Just because they are having their personal issues with management in Northwest, do something to MANAGEMENT, not the customer - why are they
154 LMP737 : One does not have to have an MBA to realize that high turnover is bad for business.
155 TVNWZ : I do have one...and it really depends on the job. Certain high turnover jobs can be very beneficial for business. Flight Attendant could be one of th
156 LMP737 : Training costs in the airline business are high for positions such as FA's. So it's doubtfull it would be "beneficial" for an airline to have a high t
157 HellKelpie : OFF TOPIC The rest of world would be thrilled if your (North American) people would get of their butts, unionise, and demand a living wage of their e
158 Bobnwa : I believe Singapore Airlines only hires flight attendants for five years before replacing them. They have arguably the best inflight service in the w
159 LMP737 : Were not in Singapore now are we?
160 Bobnwa : Sorry, didn't realize your statement only referred to US companies>
161 Stewardess4u : Bobnwa, Didn't those Singapore girls run off the plane before the passengers did on that runway disaster?? They did!! So all the smiles, cans of pop,
162 Jonno : I'm wondering.... do I want to book SEA - AMS for next February on NWA? Or Club World on BA?
163 Stewardess4u : To Airlinerlover, That was the FUNNIEST thing I have ever seen on airliners.net!! HAAHAAHAAA!!!! I love you!!
164 TVNWZ : Not really. If you take the difference in pay plus all fringe benefit contributions between a 10-20 year senior flight attendant and a rookie and the
165 Cjpark : Well I'll be damned. I used to be nice to the FA's (female) since I thought I might get lucky. Now that I am old and ugly I have been nice to them si
166 Post contains images Tango-Bravo : Since when do job opportunities to work elsewhere begin and end with "another airline" for current (as well as past and future) airline employees? As
167 Jetjack74 : It depends who's being turned over. If the bottom of the seniority are the ones quitting, it's far from beneficial. It's when the top half of the sen
168 Airnewzealand : JetJack... Please make your statements CLEAR...you are referring to USA based carriers i am assuming! Alot of other carriers in the world donot have t
169 NASCARAirforce : Might as well have just hired the Hooter girls in that case I agree, it has gotten out of hand. I DO tip my skycap, I tip waitresses/waiters, I tip m
170 Lucky42 : I believe he makes his statements quite clear. I am not a flt att either but I understand what he is saying. His point I believe was that in the eyes
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
NWA Flight Attendants To Vote On Possible Strike posted Sun Feb 12 2006 15:56:34 by KarlB737
Unions Seek To Sway NWA Flight Attendants posted Thu Sep 15 2005 03:40:32 by LUVRSW
Northwest & Flight Attendants To Report To Judge posted Wed Aug 30 2006 22:54:53 by KarlB737
NWA Flight Attendants Strike? posted Wed Jun 21 2006 16:05:34 by KL565
FBI Investigating NWA Flight Attendants posted Thu Sep 1 2005 18:36:49 by Jetdeltamsy
NWA Flight Attendants! posted Wed Oct 27 2004 10:49:13 by Nwfltattendant
AMR Flight Attendants To Negotiate Relief Package posted Mon Mar 10 2003 17:43:06 by Jcs17
Websites Dedicated To Flight Attendants? posted Fri Nov 10 2006 06:00:48 by ThaiA345
Delta To Recall 1000 Flight Attendants posted Thu Nov 9 2006 18:23:15 by DLCnxgptjax
It Is Time To Start Tipping Flight Attendants posted Fri Sep 22 2006 01:20:30 by FLALEFTY