Revelation From United States, joined Feb 2005, 4148 posts, RR: 4 Posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7774 times:
There's lots of comments on this forum about how ugly the 747-400 Large Cargo Frieghter is. I ran into this article wherein Boeing's engineers address this point directly:
Quote: “Some people have been referring to the LCF as an ‘ugly’ airplane, but we have been able to take advantage of that in design,†LCF Senior Design Lead Steve Price says. He adds that because of the airplane’s mission, its detailed design does not require at least some of the expensive engineering solutions necessary in other airplanes. Cases in point: The use of doublers, or required extra layers of outer skin material, that are being designed for installation on the outside of the airplane rather than on the inside; and the use of button-head fasteners on the outside of the airplane in many places that would not be used in typical production models.
Also:
Quote: LCF Chief Project Engineer Kurt Kraft notes the engineering design on a program involving three modification airplanes “is much different than design on a traditional program that may involve hundreds of airplanes going through the factory.†Programs with a large production run may emphasize reducing weight or improving performance. But the focus on the LCF is to “find optimal solutions very quickly and to greatly limit nonrecurring costs wherever we can—to avoid designs that will require hard tooling, for example,†Kraft says. “We are focused on providing a safe and reliable airplane that will meet all of the requirements of its mission.â€
So, it's not the prettiest bird, but there's solid reasoning about why this is so: they wanted to build it cheaply and quickly, and since they weren't building a lot of them, it didn't make sense to go to any great lengths to make it pretty.
FlySSC From Lebanon, joined Aug 2003, 6355 posts, RR: 65 Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7247 times:
True that it's not very good looking ... but actually they are not built to win a beauty price but to do a particular job and for sure, just like the Beluga, this one will do it well !
ERAUgrad02 From United States, joined Nov 2005, 1034 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 6866 times:
I think it will look fine once it gets a painting. What i wanna know is what upgrades did it get? Stronger landing gear? 747SP tail? What about the engines.. were theyn upgraded? Does anyone know the answers or where to get them?
Revelation From United States, joined Feb 2005, 4148 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6473 times:
Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 3): What i wanna know is what upgrades did it get? Stronger landing gear? 747SP tail? What about the engines.. were theyn upgraded? Does anyone know the answers or where to get them?
Quote:
The task requires that the main deck of the cargo aircraft should carry 1840m3, three times the volume of a regular 747-400 cargo aircraft. This is to be achieved by altering the shape of the deck area. The fuselage of the 747-400 LCF will even be 45.7cm wider than that of an A380. According to Boeing, the 747 LCF will actually be the biggest cargo aircraft in the world in terms of volume. Its length is to be extended by three metres, while its vertical tail unit will be raised by 1.5 metres.
And:
Quote:
For tax reasons amongst other considerations, no marketing of the aircraft outside Boeing's own requirement is planned. “One economy strategy,” according to Kraft, “is to build parts that are as straight as possible. For example, rear section 47 behind the hinges will be a simple cone. The somewhat higher structural weight is not so critical for us.” The engineers have had to compromise over the wing: due to the flutter characteristics, its fuel reserve is being restricted to 50% of the possible useful load. This has meant that the slats, landing gear and systems are largely unchanged and the new wing features are confined to different software.
Gary2880 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5254 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 5): the 747 LCF will actually be the biggest cargo aircraft in the world in terms of volume.
surely that must be wrong??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? why wouldnt boeing have done this before if its so huge, more so than the mighty mriya?
MEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 3435 posts, RR: 47 Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4994 times:
Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 6): the 747 LCF will actually be the biggest cargo aircraft in the world in terms of volume.
surely that must be wrong??
No it's correct. Remember the C-5 Galaxy, An-124 Beluga and the An-225 have a fuselage width comparible to a normal 747, ok maybe max. a meter more, and also only a slightly longer fuselage, that comes to less volume then when they have basically put a huge barrel on the 747LCF.
They didn't build it earlier because it can't carry much more weight then a 747-400F, so it's only useful for select bulky items like fuselage chunks.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
747LUVR From United States, joined Jul 2005, 335 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4795 times:
Where does it open? The tail swing to the side, or the left or right side flip up? I havent heard or seen of how they're going to load/unload this beast. Fugly yeah, but it'll : Git 'R Done!!
OldAeroGuy From United States, joined Dec 2004, 2819 posts, RR: 62 Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4727 times:
Quoting 747LUVR (Reply 9): Where does it open? The tail swing to the side, or the left or right side flip up?
The tail swings. There are external hinges covered with fairings on the port side.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
Leelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4655 times:
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 10): Quoting 747LUVR (Reply 9):
Where does it open? The tail swing to the side, or the left or right side flip up?
The tail swings. There are external hinges covered with fairings on the port side.
My question is there some sort of support strut (from the fuselage to the ground) to support the weight of the tail when the "swing zone" is open, particularly when the main bay is empty?
RedDragon From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 1135 posts, RR: 10 Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4310 times:
Quoting Leelaw (Reply 11): My question is there some sort of support strut (from the fuselage to the ground) to support the weight of the tail when the "swing zone" is open, particularly when the main bay is empty?
From the article...
Quote: Bruce Whiteman, lead engineer assigned to the freighter’s swing tail development, says that after landing, the LCF’s entire tail section, supported by independent ground support equipment, will swing out to allow easy loading via custom-built cargo loaders. The cargo loaders will raise the huge 787 sections to the airplane’s floor level and slide them into the unpressurized fuselage.
Two pull-in actuators and numerous latches are involved in the proprietary system that opens, closes and locks the swing tail in place, Whiteman says. The latches, originally designed for a proposed folding wing on the Boeing 777, will be activated only by the ground support equipment and are specially designed to assure that the swing tail always is latched and locked when in service.
Anyone know how the control cables to the horizontal and vertical tails are being routed and connected? As I recall, disconnecting and reconnecting control cables on the CL-44 Guppy and similar took ages, didn't it?
787engineer From United States, joined Dec 2005, 572 posts, RR: 16 Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4212 times:
Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 3): I think it will look fine once it gets a painting. What i wanna know is what upgrades did it get? Stronger landing gear? 747SP tail? What about the engines.. were theyn upgraded? Does anyone know the answers or where to get them?
The takeoff weight of a fully loaded 744 LCF with the largest of the 787 components will actually be lighter than the MTOW of a regular 744F so there were no need to strengthen the landing gear or have a higher lift wing. However the that large hump does have a significant affect on the aerodynamics and the behavior of the aircraft. The tail was resized (
Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 7): They didn't build it earlier because it can't carry much more weight then a 747-400F, so it's only useful for select bulky items like fuselage chunks.
Quoting 747LUVR (Reply 16): thanks for the answers for loading....I was also thinking how difficult it might be to reconnect flight controls while the tail seperates...
Random idea since this far from my area of expertise, but why can't they have a short range transmitter (infra-red, radio, etc) that would send the signals across the door splice and have the actuators "read" in the data?
Revelation From United States, joined Feb 2005, 4148 posts, RR: 4 Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4103 times:
Quoting 787engineer (Reply 17): Random idea since this far from my area of expertise, but why can't they have a short range transmitter (infra-red, radio, etc) that would send the signals across the door splice and have the actuators "read" in the data?
It's hard enough for a pilot to trust 'fly by wire' - so getting them to trus 'fly by ether' will be darn near impossible!
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 3181 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4024 times:
Quoting RedDragon (Reply 15):
Two pull-in actuators and numerous latches are involved in the proprietary system that opens, closes and locks the swing tail in place,
I posted a link that describes this including the connections in one of the LCF threads, but couldn't find it now. I think it's on the Flightglobal report about this.....
Quoting RedDragon (Reply 15): the LCF’s entire tail section, supported by independent ground support equipment, will swing out to allow easy loading via custom-built cargo loaders.
Is it true that the first LCF was essentially a new airframe as the caption says it "never entered service" or was it just not used for cargo before?
From this
FL370 From United States, joined Apr 2006, 252 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3775 times:
its gonna look so nice after its painted. it would be nice to see it in the dreamliner paint scheme. i think this plane looks better thant he beluga, just becuase its a BOEING 747-400. still the nicest widebody(besides the 777).
Alessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 25, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3510 times:
Certainly a big bird, how much weight will be added when its painted?
26 Airfoilsguy: I think they should pain 3 decks worth of windows on it just to screw with airbus.
27 Atnight: Anyone know what date they have looked at for its first flight? After seeing the caption, I wonder the same thing.... anyone has more information abo
28 USAF336TFS: Anyone have any guesses about the aircraft's livery scheme? I would think it'll be painted in the "new" Boeing livery.
29 Revelation: In one of the other LCF threads, I posted a quote from Boeing stating that the livery was a part of the negotiation process with the vendor who will
30 MEA-707: It depends on how you describe bigger. The unique point is the VOLUME is bigger then anything else. But it isn't the longest, it isn't the tallest, i
31 HAWK21M: Guess one less Im surprised at that.I wonder Why. regds MEL
32 Revelation: They would rather talk about the gift instead of the box it comes in!
33 MarkATL: From the article: ferry large composite 787 sections, including major fuselage sections, wings and the horizontal tail, from supplier factories in Gro
34 B52murph: [quote=DEVILFISH,reply=19]Is it true that the first LCF was essentially a new airframe as the caption says it "never entered service" or was it just n
35 HAWK21M: Interesting to see how the test flight goes. regds MEL
36 AirbusA346: Have they opened the tail yet, and are there any photos of the interior of the cargo bay and the nose etc. Because I want to see what modifications th
37 HAWK21M: Any Inside Pics.Wonder how the Empennage cables are routed. regds MEL
38 Woosie: Sorry, that airplane is a WYSIWYG - no upgrades other than what you've seen at rollout. Boeing has spent some time/effort on the hinge/interconnectio
39 Tys777: I would love to see that and I'm sure that someone on here should be able to photoshop it on. I can't wait to see pictures of this thing flying. It's
40 Andz: for those of you wondering about the comparison with the AN-225 have a look at this. There is also some big Airbus in there sorry it's cutting off
41 HAWK21M: Fantastic comparative pic.Where did you get that from. regds MEL
42 Antiuser: It isn't. In fact, the Mriya ranked second to the Airbus A300-600ST in terms of volume. The Mriya has a capacity of 1300 cubic metres, while the Belu
43 Andz: Mel I have had it for ages, can't remember where I got it, PM me your email address and I'll send you the un-cut-off version
45 Duke: That comaparison is cool. AN-225 - amazing looking bird. 744-LCF - ugg-LEEE! Looks like a hippo with a disgusting growth on its sides. But for the cus
46 Rc4050: man that plane is ugly. but that is an interesting point brought up about the volume as compared to the AN-225.
47 Jogales: I don't think that it will look as bad when it gets a coat of paint...
52 Liedetectors: It can't be a regular 747SP tail, because it appears to have the regular -400 rudder. Didn't the 747SP have a double-articulated rudder to increase it
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