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NYC-HOU routes and who serves them  
User currently offlineQwame From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 129 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3931 times:

Beside CO, SWA and recently JetBlue, none of the other airlines seem to fly direct from IAH to JFK or LGA. Does anyone know the reason why.

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3912 times:

Quoting Qwame (Thread starter):
Beside CO, SWA and recently JetBlue, none of the other airlines seem to fly direct from IAH to JFK or LGA. Does anyone know the reason why.

WN via ATA.

AA for years flew LGA-HOU but it was dropped a few months ago, DL used to fly once daily M88 between JFK and IAH but that was dropped around 9-11.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineBnamaxx From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3912 times:

Well, WN doesn't fly to any New York airport from any Houston airport, with the exception being HOU-ISP with intermediate stops (some may or may not consider ISP an NYC airport). As far as IAH is concerned, seems that CO pretty well has that market cornered. AA was flying HOU-LGA for several years and dropped it. TZ picked that route up and I beleive is doing it 2x daily. Not sure what effect B6 will have. Unless DL adds a flight to JFK to feed its trans Atlantic service, I doubt you'll see any new entrants.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26815 posts, RR: 75
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3903 times:

Quoting Qwame (Thread starter):
Beside CO, SWA and recently JetBlue, none of the other airlines seem to fly direct from IAH to JFK or LGA. Does anyone know the reason why.

Southwest flies to none of those airports, however ATA does fly LGA-HOU, which Southwest codeshares on. As for the reason why other airlines don't fly NYC-HOU/IAH, the reason is the hub and spoke model. CO operates hubs at both EWR and IAH, meaning they fly the most between Houston and New York. B6 operates a hub at JFK, meaning connecting the largest city in the country with the fourth largest was inevitable. Southwest's traditional strength in the 3 major Texas markets means that they have used ATA's position as an LGA carrier to run a couple flights a day between the two cities.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineOptionsCLE From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3867 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
connecting the largest city in the country with the fourth largest was inevitable.

I thought Houston was #3. Did it slip in the last couple of years?


User currently offlineBnamaxx From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3848 times:

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 4):
I thought Houston was #3. Did it slip in the last couple of years?

I don't beleive Houston has ever been considered the third largest city. It has never surpassed LA or Chicago in population, though I expect it will do so eventually.  Smile


User currently offlineJunction From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3811 times:

DL has also flown IAH-JFK on and off in the past. The market comes and goes for them.

User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3627 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3798 times:

"DL used to fly once daily M88 between JFK and IAH but that was dropped around 9-11."

I didn't know that. I thought they always codeshared with CO.

I saw a pic in a database once of widebody service on Pan Am between JFK and IAH.

PJ


User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1569 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3763 times:

Quoting Qwame (Thread starter):
Beside CO, SWA and recently JetBlue, none of the other airlines seem to fly direct from IAH to JFK or LGA. Does anyone know the reason why.

WN doesn't fly to NY.

AA flies from JFK, and I think ATA from LGA as well. Its a market that the three (especially CO) serve very well already. CO has something like 15 flights between NYC and the Houston area each day.



The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1937 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3751 times:
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Quoting Bnamaxx (Reply 2):
(some may or may not consider ISP an NYC airport

ISP is at least in NY State unlike some other "NYC airports"



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3746 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
the largest city in the country with the fourth largest was inevitable.



Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 4):
I thought Houston was #3. Did it slip in the last couple of years?

In terms of metro, Houston isn't either.

N


User currently offlineN844AA From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3746 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
AA for years flew LGA-HOU but it was dropped a few months ago, DL used to fly once daily M88 between JFK and IAH but that was dropped around 9-11.

My understanding is that the AA flights were off and on throughout the late 90s and this decade -- that is to say, it wasn't exactly a long-standing tradition. But, if someone can correct me on that, I'd appreciate it.

It boggles my mind that AA flies an MD-80 from LGA-MSY, but can't make the HOU-LGA route work. With the number of times I've flown between those cities in the past year, I probably paid for at least a few of those flights myself.

On a related note, does TZ still have a business class? If so, do they have it on the planes they use on the LGA-HOU route?



New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
User currently offlineN844AA From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3742 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 9):
ISP is at least in NY State unlike some other "NYC airports"

Oh, come on. This is a rather insane argument, don't you think? EWR is incredibly well-connected to the city. ISP, from my understanding, isn't bad, but I'm not sure why an intervening state line is so prejudicial. I mean, is BUF a better airport for the NYC area than EWR?

I imagine you were probably being facetious, but EWR is a perfectly suitable airport for service to the NYC area, and preferable in some respects to LGA and JFK. ISP is not.



New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3627 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3726 times:

"It boggles my mind that AA flies an MD-80 from LGA-MSY, but can't make the HOU-LGA route work. With the number of times I've flown between those cities in the past year, I probably paid for at least a few of those flights myself."

I don't think they were really serving HOU as much as they were serving the HOU/AUS markets combined.

It was a thru flight LGA-HOU-AUS. It was a way of getting around the perimeter rule at LGA. HOU is within the perimeter; AUS is not. So AA had a monopoly on the LGA-AUS route with direct, same plane service.

They were also the only airline flying from JFK/LGA with direct service to AUS. That scene changed dramatically when DL and B6 started nonstop JFK-AUS early this year. AA dropped the route.

PJ


User currently offlineN844AA From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3714 times:

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 13):
I don't think they were really serving HOU as much as they were serving the HOU/AUS markets combined.

It was a thru flight LGA-HOU-AUS. It was a way of getting around the perimeter rule at LGA. HOU is within the perimeter; AUS is not. So AA had a monopoly on the LGA-AUS route with direct, same plane service.

I know, and I thought about mentioning that in my post, but I can't shake the feeling that there should have been some way for AA to make HOU-LGA alone work. Which isn't a hunch sitting on a real solid foundation, since I suspect the primary (only?) reason for the HOU's stop existence was, as you said, the perimeter rule. But if MSY-LGA is feasible, I see no immediate reason why LGA-HOU would not be -- and if I recall correctly, AA announced the cancellation of the flight well before B6 or DL started nonstop service. Plus, I would maintain that JFK service does not at all equate to LGA service.



New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
User currently offlineEWRandMDW From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3708 times:

If memory serves, CO ran EWR-HOU on multiple frequencies back in the '90s and at least 1 frequency in more recent years.

User currently offlineQwame From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3620 times:

What is the perimeter rule?

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26815 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3617 times:

Quoting Bnamaxx (Reply 5):
I don't beleive Houston has ever been considered the third largest city. It has never surpassed LA or Chicago in population, though I expect it will do so eventually.

First, it isn't even close to Los Angeles proper (just over half the population and even further on metro) and more than half a million behind Chicago. It likely won't pass either as Houston proper is reaching full build out mostly because of their antiquated zoning laws (or lack thereof) and will mostly see suburban growth.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 10):
In terms of metro, Houston isn't either.

That is very true oink, though I was making it simple



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineATA767 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 419 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3566 times:

Quoting N844AA (Reply 11):
On a related note, does TZ still have a business class? If so, do they have it on the planes they use on the LGA-HOU route?

They do but tend not to use it on that route.


User currently offlineNateDAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3566 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
It likely won't pass either as Houston proper is reaching full build out mostly because of their antiquated zoning laws (or lack thereof) and will mostly see suburban growth.

That is nonsense.

Lack of zoning makes it far easier to inner city areas for denser housing. Underutilized properties in Houston are redeveloped far easier than in any other city because the only real legal barriers are deed restricitons (if there are any). Densification is happening all over Houston. Look at how many homes have been torn down and replaced with condos are garden apartments. Look at the redevelopment of midtown or the many large apartment complexes and high-rise condo projects.

Alternatively, look at the nonsense that Wal-Mart had to go through to build their Tchoupitoulas store. Get the government involved if you want to stop development and densification.

Sure, there is going to be a lot of suburban growth, but zoning will impede densification of the city...



Set Love Free
User currently offlineN844AA From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days ago) and read 3504 times:

Quoting NateDAL (Reply 19):
Densification is happening all over Houston. Look at how many homes have been torn down and replaced with condos are garden apartments. Look at the redevelopment of midtown or the many large apartment complexes and high-rise condo projects.

Yeah. There's a lot of potential for development and densification inside the loop -- lots of vacant lots in formerly marginal neighborhoods, currently marginal neighborhoods that are gentrifying at the perimeter, and dozens of new apartment megacomplexes going up in fairly trendy areas.

As to the comment about Houston's lack of zoning being an impediment to future development, I remember reading an article once that determined empirically that no-zoning works essentially as well, if not better, than a zoning regime. Houston, of course, was the case study for the no-zoning regime, and basically preferences, deed restrictions, and market forces combine to create a sort of ad hoc zoning system.

Quoting ATA767 (Reply 18):
They do but tend not to use it on that route.

I don't know how they'd market or develop it, but I feel like there's a business travel niche that TZ might be able to exploit between HOU-LGA. I haven't flown TZ much, but I've had great experiences the few times I have. As the sole airline offering direct service between the most convenient airports in Houston and New York, it seems like with a business class on that flight, they could make something happen. I guess it would be tough for them to offer the frequencies necessary to compete with CO out of IAH.



New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days ago) and read 3498 times:

You wanna go way bac, try DL with DC 7s and Eastern with Electra's then
DC-8's. Oh, did I mention somebody called Braniff?

safe  biggrin 



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3393 times:

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 7):
didn't know that. I thought they always codeshared with CO.

Nope, around early 2002 DL dropped their once daily M88 flight from JFK-IAH. That flight operated from the mid-'90s to '02. CO and DL were not codesharing or a part of Skyteam at that time (atleast CO was not a part).

Quote:
I saw a pic in a database once of widebody service on Pan Am between JFK and IAH.

Pan Am flew 747s between JFK and IAH, Pan Am had a mini hub at IAH thanks to the National Takeover, they flew 747s and DC-10-10s JFK-IAH-MEX.

Eastern was also big in Houston, first at IAH then after the Texas Air take over they moved to HOU. Eastern also had a mini hub at IAH, A300s between JFK and EWR and IAH. Later after the Texas Air Takeover Eastern had twice daily LGA-HOU 727s and twice daily DCA-HOU 727s.

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 15):
If memory serves, CO ran EWR-HOU on multiple frequencies back in the '90s and at least 1 frequency in more recent years.

In 1989 I flew LAX-HOU-EWR on CO, the LAX-HOU flight was on a 737-300 and the HOU-EWR flight was on a 727-200.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

CO recently increased their IAH-JFK flights to 4 daily, 3 737-500s and 1 737-700. Hopefully they will eventually upgrade one (or more) of those flights to 737-800s

You will still see plenty of CO 737s at HOU today, Houston Hobby is one of two heavy maintenance bases for CO airlines 737s (the other heavy maintenance base is Orlando MCO).



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3357 times:

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 4):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
connecting the largest city in the country with the fourth largest was inevitable.

I thought Houston was #3. Did it slip in the last couple of years?

Never been higher than 4th, very happy there in that slot.

Who would want to compete in the market with CO from their largest and second largest sized HUBS? AA proved they didn't want to when they dumped the HOU/LGA trips.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
25 Bnamaxx : How is it that DEN is within the LGA perimeter rule and AUS is not? AUS is closer, no? Does DEN have an exemption?
26 STT757 : Denver was grandfathered in as there was existing service between LGA and Denver when the perimeter rule was enacted, there was no service between Au
27 Bnamaxx : Thnx for the update STT757. So what is the mileage limit from LGA?
28 STT757 : 1,500 miles, there are two exceptions. Denver as mentioned, and on Saturdays. There is no perimeter rule on Saturdays so airlines could fly LGA-LAX (
29 N844AA : Excellent point, but the fact remains that IAH and EWR are both (in my opinion) slightly suboptimal for New York-Houston point-to-point service. And,
30 Post contains images Iowaman : DL is taking advantage of the no perimeter rule on Saturdays and started LGA-LAX and LAS recently.
31 Lt-AWACS : Yes this is completely false. Since the 2000 US census Houston's majority growth has been inside the IH_610 loop and with multi-unit condo/rowhouse d
32 FlyDeltaJets : Just saying ISP is in New York. For me the most convient is JFK as it is only 10 min away followed by LGA. EWR would never be an option as it is way
33 Qwame : It was a thru flight LGA-HOU-AUS. It was a way of getting around the perimeter rule at LGA. HOU is within the perimeter; AUS is not. So AA had a monop
34 JFKLGANYC : "WHAT IS THE PERIMETER?" HaHa. Sorry, we forgot to answer that! LGA has a perimeter rule. All flights over 1500 miles MUST use JFK when flying into NY
35 ScottB : Well, it's no longer true that IAH is suboptimal for many in the Houston area, though. Back in 1970, when IAH was built, much more of the population
36 N844AA : Yup, I have no argument with anything you've said. I guess what inspires my fervent belief in LGA-HOU as some sort of holy grail of routes has been m
37 ScottB : If anything, this probably ought to be a red flag that AA wasn't getting significant repeat business traveler demand unless you are/were AAdvantage P
38 STT757 : There's no way ISP is more conveinent to Brooklyn than EWR. I can see EWR planes on final approach from Fort Hamilton park, and conversly I can see t
39 STT757 : Or EWR. I believe both CO and UAL were flying LGA-Denver Statpleton at the time of the perimeter rule taking effect.
40 Post contains images ScottB : How quickly we forget the Van Wyck
41 N844AA : I'm Plat, but that's the only route I flew regularly where I had that kind of luck on upgrades. But while it was a favorable route in that respect, I
42 JFKLGANYC : "Quoting STT757 (Reply 38): The Belt is the worst roadway in the NYC area, followed closely by the Major Deegan and Cross Bronx. How quickly we forget
43 STT757 : Last year it took me an hour to get out of the Yankee Stadium parking garage (UGH!), I got there late and had to park on the roof. There was another
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