Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
NWA-AFA Talks Break Down...  
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3292 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4551 times:

"A Friday strike deadline looks at Northwest Airlines and no talks are taking place or are scheduled. Local walkouts are expected.

The Association of Flight Attendants confirmed Wednesday that on Tuesday it sent its negotiators home because nothing was happening in the talks."

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/060824/1335771.html?.v=1

The next 24 hours are going to be very interesting....

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4474 times:

I just read in the Detroit News that the mediator has NOT released the flight attendents for the "30 day cooling off period". Now, does that mean this strike may be deemed illegal?
And if it is, will the chiefs of the Union be summened to court and reprimanded
with say a heavy fine(and we know the union does not have that kind of $$)
and perhaps jail time?
Im not saying this is going to happen but IF the strike/walk-out is considered
illegal, some legal action will be taken.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3292 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4438 times:

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 2):
I just read in the Detroit News that the mediator has NOT released the flight attendents for the "30 day cooling off period". Now, does that mean this strike may be deemed illegal?

See, thats where the courts get involved. No, they weren't released into a 30 day cooling off period. But the company was allowed to impose a contract. Under RLA, the company can't impose a contract, and the union can't strike until after the cooling off period. So how is it that the RLA didn't apply to the company, but applies to the union? I don't see how the RLA applies here, because it was unilaterally discarded by the bankruptcy court.


User currently offlineTwolz2rn From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 450 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4368 times:

Hopefully nothing happens, but i have a trip to Europe with NW in three weeks...what if there were to be a strike...am I "S.O.L" or would i be placed on a different Skyteam flight to Europe...

User currently offlineIadbgo From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4271 times:

I too am flying NW in the coming days (Sept 1st and 10th). The outbound is no problem...IAD-BGO on KL...but on the way back I'm currently on NW from AMS-DTW-IAD. I'll be watching this very, very closely.

I believe that KL will try to accomodate as many NW passangers as possible...but the planes will get full quick (if they aren't already). I would imagine that Skyteam in general will try to accomdate as well...just a question of how many seats.

Frankly, I'm just glad to be in the clear on the outbound to see my wife...couldn't care less how long it takes me to get back. The only thing I will say about the labor situation is that both sides in to make d*mn sure they are willing to go the whole way with this thing. If there is a full blown shut down the airline is gone. (I'm banking on CHAOS only)

IADBGO

[Edited 2006-08-24 21:06:12]

User currently offlineDolinja777 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4230 times:

Quoting Iadbgo (Reply 6):
I too am flying NW in the coming days (Sept 1st and 10th). The outbound is no problem...IAD-BGO on KL...but on the way back I'm currently on NW from AMS-DTW-IAD. I'll be watching this very, very closely.

Always better to be delayed coming home from your vacation then on the way to! I'm flying NW on September 2nd, LGA-DTW-CDG, returning KLM CDG-AMS-JFK on September 13th. I'm not worried about getting home, but the outbound flight has got me very nervous now.

And here is the most frustrating thing, I only booked NW because I wanted to fly a 777 and this leg had the KLM 777 home (and it was reasonably priced). This was before I was aware of the NW strike situation. Over the weekend I found direct flights on CO EWR-CDG, with 777 both ways for $550 (I paid $580 for my NW itinerary). I just checked Air France for shits and giggles and now the have a damn fair sale! JFK-CDG, with my choice of 772 or 773, $510. All I wish is that I'd never booked those damn NW tickets and I'd be on this in a second. Hindsight is 20/20, you can't wait until 1 week before a major vacation to book plane tickets unfortunately. I'm tearing my hair out because of this!

Jason


User currently offlineN174UA From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4118 times:

Quoting Twolz2rn (Reply 3):
am I "S.O.L" or would i be placed on a different Skyteam flight to Europe...

I would think you'd be put on another SkyTeam airline, but as mentioned, those planes will fill up fast, and the premium pax will probably be accomodated first.

I'm flying to FCO on Saturday, and bought the ticket back in January, booking away from both NW (for their overall position on labor relations) and AZ, due to their "issues". I'm on US.


User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4085 times:

Quoting Dolinja777 (Reply 5):
Always better to be delayed coming home from your vacation then on the way to! I'm flying NW on September 2nd, LGA-DTW-CDG, returning KLM CDG-AMS-JFK on September 13th. I'm not worried about getting home, but the outbound flight has got me very nervous now.

If NW goes south after the f/a's strike, CO or DL will accomadate you.


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3292 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4085 times:

~Sounds topic drift warning horn~

User currently offlineJamake1 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1010 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4062 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 2):
So how is it that the RLA didn't apply to the company, but applies to the union? I don't see how the RLA applies here, because it was unilaterally discarded by the bankruptcy court.

EXACTLY! And that's the bottom line...



United's B747-400. "She's a a cruel lover."
User currently offlineRandyWaldron From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 324 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3887 times:

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 7):
If NW goes south after the f/a's strike, CO or DL will accomadate you.

And let you sit where? On the laps of other passengers??? Lay in the overhead bins? We have another record high load factor industry-wide this summer. Flights are packed! There is quite simply not enough room!

With little overlapping route structures, I would love to see how you think DL, KL or CO will handle the thousands of stranded passengers in, lets say, MSP, MEM, DTW, SEA, AMS, HNL..........not possible.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 8):
~Sounds topic drift warning horn~

You got it.

Quoting Dolinja777 (Reply 5):
I just checked Air France for shits and giggles and now the have a damn fair sale!

Damn those 'fair' sales..........



"Flaps 20, gear down, landing checklist please..."
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3753 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3869 times:

Some food for thought:

I have a friend who is an A330 captain for NW and he has talked to many DTW-based FAs. He actually said that most of the FAs he has talked to don't want the strike to happen. He also mentioned that 40% of FAs didn't vote at all.

Still, I hope that NW survives, but I have a distinct feeling that a strike will mean the end of the red tail.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3701 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting TOLtommy (Thread starter):
The next 24 hours are going to be very interesting....

I think that court is going to order the union and company back to the negotiating table.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 1):
And if it is, will the chiefs of the Union be summened to court and reprimanded
with say a heavy fine(and we know the union does not have that kind of $$)
and perhaps jail time?

No, they're protected under the RLA from jailtime. Calling an illegal strike is not a crime. If judge Gropper reverses his earlier decision, they might be fined if found to be in contempt. But as of right now, we are legal to strike at the deadline. If a new decision or a legal precedent is found that could stop us from striking, than that might change things abit.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 2):
So how is it that the RLA didn't apply to the company, but applies to the union?

Well, We did turn down 2 contract proposals. The judge handed down his ruling that if the TA-1 was voted down, NWA would have the authority to impose the TA. Then on July 17th, it was negotiated that NWA would delay the imposed workrules to allow the flight attendants to vote on the 2nd TA. It was understood through the courts, that if this one failed to pass, then rules under TA-1 would imposed. That is what was ruled upon. So i'm unsure if the 30 day cooling off period applies. Now, I believe President Bush could intervene with an Presidential Emergency Board order to allow more time for negotiations, but I can't be certain. We are under the bankruptcy court jurisdiction.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 11):
He actually said that most of the FAs he has talked to don't want the strike to happen.

No we don't. I don't, but if the strike is still legaland there is a picket line, I won't cross it. I don't want jeopardise my future opportunities by ending up on some scab list.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 11):
He also mentioned that 40% of FAs didn't vote at all.

That's the most irritating part about this is nonparticipation. I had 2 roommates at the crashpad who didn't vote and have been whining, complaining and moaning ever since. I think that if a vote was held today on TA-2, that it would pass this time. I think that most people thought the company would resume negotiating, but they haven't and I think that most of the "do or die" of the militant FA's would consider voting yes now. I voted yes, becuase I wanted to get this behind us, but now since it was voted down, we're in the position we're in. I'm hopeful that peaceful resolution will save the day and we can all go on living our lives



Made from jets!
User currently offlineUadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3669 times:

heres some more food for thought FWAERJ....what if nwa afa does go out on strike....#1)will NWA have a "blanket endorsement" with the other sky team members???i would hope/expect that to be in place but for how long???before some of them try and pull a varig-esque type of move that LH/UA & NH just did with RG....i know its comparing apples to oranges but... i would hate to see some nwa pax stranded if nwa were to go under...or at the very least go into a prolonged strike......#2)id be willing to bet that the skyteam partners after a while would say forget it...we need to capture more rev then what ure sending us so screw it...ure on ure own....dont say it wont happen...it could very easily and it would be a shame to see that.....best thing i could see happen is..get ure tickets issued on a sky team member...DL/CO & AF...then if they say forget it...they still have to honor their own "plated"tickets...per IATA.....


bus driver.......move that bus:)
User currently offlineRJ777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1849 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3601 times:

I have a feeling the only LEGAL ACTION that will happen is a chapter 7 filing!

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3558 times:

Quoting Dolinja777 (Reply 5):
And here is the most frustrating thing, I only booked NW because I wanted to fly a 777 and this leg had the KLM 777 home (and it was reasonably priced). This was before I was aware of the NW strike situation. Over the weekend I found direct flights on CO EWR-CDG, with 777 both ways for $550 (I paid $580 for my NW itinerary). I just checked Air France for shits and giggles and now the have a damn fair sale! JFK-CDG, with my choice of 772 or 773, $510. All I wish is that I'd never booked those damn NW tickets and I'd be on this in a second. Hindsight is 20/20, you can't wait until 1 week before a major vacation to book plane tickets unfortunately. I'm tearing my hair out because of this!

I'd call CO and find out about paying a change fee and flying them. It might be possible if CO codeshares on your flights.

Otherwise, I'd look into your options and book AF anyway, and then use your unused NW ticket at a later date, should they exist. Get to take a 773 and 772 on the same trip!

Reasoning is that you may be SOL either way if NW doesn't fly, but at least your trip isn't canceled. If NW doesn't strike, you have a credit on NW good for a year minus any penalty, but at least you've hedged your travel at this point.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3504 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 11):
I have a friend who is an A330 captain for NW and he has talked to many DTW-based FAs. He actually said that most of the FAs he has talked to don't want the strike to happen. He also mentioned that 40% of FAs didn't vote at all.

Oh really. Haha.

[Hilariously mustaccioed Capt]: "Dear FAs, will you strike and endanger my career, because of some pay fussfuss?"

[NW FAs]: "Capt, no, of course we would not do this wicked thing! For we love to fly forever and ever no matter what the wage!"

[Capt with mustache]: "That's what I thought. Hooray for workplace harmony."

[FAs]: "Yes, hooray! Thank you for this talk, Captain."

[Capt]: "You are welcome."


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3292 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2928 times:

Just a little condescending there, supa...

FWAERJ is right, I would suspect that most NWA FA's don't want any kind of labor action. They realize the company is in bad shape, and they also realize that there is a need for givebacks.

Personally, I feel that NWA never intended to bargain in good faith. After successfully replacing AMFA last year, NWA leadership and their attorneys were emboldended. I'm sure that they were willing to go to court and have contracts imposed on all 3 labor groups. The lack of unity amongst the FA's has driven them to where they are today. Two changes in representation in the past few years and a major percentage of the group didn't care enough to participate. That's managements wet dream! I've never been a union member, but I have sat at the table. I would've been very happy to face such a fractured group.

That being said, I still can't see where NWA has legal grounds to prevent the work stoppage. But I'm not a lawyer, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...


User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2687 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 17):
Personally, I feel that NWA never intended to bargain in good faith

Not meaning to pick on you TOL, however I am really getting tired of people using the term "good faith." It is such a misused phrase by both labor and management. To each party, their idea of "good faith" is getting what they want and when the other party doesn't yeild, out comes the phrase "they aren't negotiating in good faith." If the two parties can't reach an agreement then maybe the business model isn't viable and the business should cease to exist. Companies are in business for the shareholders, not the employees. Companies can only afford "X" cost for labor and labor will only supply a "Y" amount of workers at a given wage. If the two can't agree, than so be it and shut the business down. It is just that simple, basic supply and demand. But the use of "good faith" is just B.S.



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3292 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

Maybe I just think differently, Skibum. You say that the compnay is in business for the shareholders, not the employees. That's awfully black and white, and I think that's part of the problem. It's not all about shareholder return, and it's not all about the employees being the best paid in the industry. Those two forces have harmed the airline industry. I think the company has a responsibility to provide a good return on investment, but I also feel that employees should be valued and well compensated. That doesn't necessarily mean "industry leading", on either side. Some companies like high turnover, because it keeps wages low. Others like long term employees, as it keeps turnover related costs low.

No, I don't think NWA bargained in good faith. I don't think NWA values their employees, and sees them as easily replaceable. Personally, I don't think NWA leadership is customer focused either. I got tired of the nickle and diming, and took my business elsewhere this year. I've been at least a Gold Elite since 1998, but this year US Airways and AirTran are getting the bulk of my business. Already Elite on AirTran, and just made Gold at US as well.

Maybe NWA leadership went into negotiations with unrealistic goals and no flexibility. Then maybe you are correct, and the business model is not sustainable. But I support the NWA FA's right now.


User currently offlineRsmith6621a From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 194 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2488 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 12):
Now, I believe President Bush could intervene with an Presidential Emergency Board order to allow more time for negotiations, but I can't be certain.

Ummmm....I doubt it....he's on vacation this month along with Cheney...Now if NWA had a feeding tube inserted into its GUT then maybe..just maybe he would make a special trip back to WDC to sign a bill....There are other carriers that can take up the slack....no need to get george involved.

NWA is just another airline....if they fold it is not because of the FAs or the Unions but because of managements prior poor biz decissons....perhaps it is time to grab the prunning shears and snip NWA off the vine.



Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3292 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2453 times:

Quoting Rsmith6621a (Reply 20):
Ummmm....I doubt it....he's on vacation this month along with Cheney

I love this mentality that the President is "on vacation" like you and I would be, with all call to voice mail, and an auto reply on the e-mail. Sorry, but the presidency is 24/7/365 job. Yes, he's at this ranch, but I think it's safe to say that if any issue arose, he wouldn't be saying "I'll get to it when I get back to DC". He certainly doesn't have to be in DC to sign an EO to create the PEB.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6474 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2423 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 17):
Personally, I feel that NWA never intended to bargain in good faith

Please explain what you mean by the term "bargaining in good faith."


User currently offlineRsmith6621a From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 194 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2423 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 21):
I love this mentality that the President is "on vacation" like you and I would be, with all call to voice mail, and an auto reply on the e-mail. Sorry, but the presidency is 24/7/365 job. Yes, he's at this ranch, but I think it's safe to say that if any issue arose, he wouldn't be saying "I'll get to it when I get back to DC". He certainly doesn't have to be in DC to sign an EO to create the PEB.

Whoooaa Buddy Anetter.....relax and go spotting....that wasnt my quote it was bushes quote from his last mondays news conference..he also didnt like being interupted when Katrina hit either......so I seriously doubt this NWA is a priority...in fact I believe he said a few months back he wouldnt get involved in issues that involve airlines.



Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6816 posts, RR: 34
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2351 times:

Quoting RandyWaldron (Reply 10):
And let you sit where? On the laps of other passengers??? Lay in the overhead bins? We have another record high load factor industry-wide this summer. Flights are packed! There is quite simply not enough room!

Sure there is. Loads have already dropped off for the most part.

Quoting RandyWaldron (Reply 10):
With little overlapping route structures, I would love to see how you think DL, KL or CO will handle the thousands of stranded passengers in, lets say, MSP, MEM, DTW, SEA, AMS, HNL..........not possible.

Sure it is. The NW pilot strike in Nov 1998 barely caused a ripple outside of the NW hubs. While LF weren't as high then, I think you overestimate the impact an airline disappearing would create--the biggest impact wouldn't be in the hubs in terms of their O&D traffic--it would be for the small markets that NW is the only major player.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 17):
Personally, I feel that NWA never intended to bargain in good faith. After successfully replacing AMFA last year, NWA leadership and their attorneys were emboldended. I'm sure that they were willing to go to court and have contracts imposed on all 3 labor groups. The lack of unity amongst the FA's has driven them to where they are today. Two changes in representation in the past few years and a major percentage of the group didn't care enough to participate.

Good post. I think that certainly is a factor.


25 Jetjack74 : Without creating a colon-blockage? Doubtful. Being one of the big 5 carriers would seriously damage the economy. That's untrue. Alot of what happened
26 Rsmith6621a : Since Bush appoints the heads of FEMA when FEMA dropped the ball Bush also dropped the ball..Katrina certianly didnt stop bush from cutting cake,play
27 TOLtommy : K, bob... Here I go. My impression is that NWA never entered "negotiations". NWA went in saying "we're going to get X amount from each group". They w
28 Post contains images TOLtommy : Ok, so next time I fly NWA, and my flight is delayed or bag lost, it's Steenland's fault, right? Nobody except the ultimate boss has accountability f
29 Lucky42 : Well, good faith can take you closer to your goal before confrontation will which seem to always be nw's first choice. Your employees will be more li
30 Skibum9 : I don't think you answered BobNWA's question. What do you mean by "good faith?" Maybe management came in with a hard number they had to meet to be vi
31 Sinlock : (found valid thread)[Edited 2006-08-26 00:07:02]
32 Jacobin777 : Why should he get involved? How would it?
33 RJ777 : Maybe Carl Icahn will try and buy NWA!
34 Charlienorth : Yea but he said "This time no more Mr. Niceguy"
35 Lucky42 : good one charlie
36 Jetjack74 : Try and find enough seats on aircraft to accomodate the mass numbers of distressed passengers if NWA had multiple service disruptions , Try and find
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
SAS Pilot Talks Breaks Down posted Tue Feb 14 2006 15:34:51 by CPH-R
NWA Contract Talks - Union Relents posted Sat Jun 25 2005 17:28:43 by KarlB737
NWA DC-9 Emergency Shuts Down MSP Rwy... posted Fri Aug 23 2002 03:22:03 by TzMSP
Looking For A Break Down Of BA's Tails posted Tue Apr 30 2002 08:25:29 by Gmonney
Northwest & Bag Handlers Break Off Labor Talks posted Sat May 13 2006 13:47:38 by KarlB737
Fighting Words Crossing The Table With NWA Talks posted Mon Feb 13 2006 21:10:32 by KarlB737
NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks posted Sun Sep 11 2005 18:58:54 by Usnseallt82
NWA Stock Going Down posted Fri Aug 26 2005 02:12:04 by LUVRSW
Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off posted Wed Aug 3 2005 19:14:35 by KarlB737
Windshear Almost Brings Down NWA DC9...! posted Sat Jul 10 2004 01:32:46 by Deltadude8