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Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?  
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4750 posts, RR: 44
Posted (8 years 1 month 19 hours ago) and read 6880 times:

Delta plans to implement four employee provided fuel saving (weight saving) initiatives this year including potentially removing the bulkhead b/w F/Y Class per the link attached.

I personally am not in love with the idea, perhaps they could find a lighter weight "hard" divider vs. going to curtains?

Delta Fuel Management

Thoughts? I know Air Canada is currently implementing this on the nb aircraft...

[Edited 2006-08-24 22:10:16]

[Edited 2006-08-24 22:16:33]


Some see lines, others see between the lines.
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 19 hours ago) and read 6867 times:

This is not a class thing so much as a kid kicking the back of the seat thing, but I would imagine that since airlines like to seat kids in the first row of Y and kids like to kick seats, that removing this bulkhead will suck. Especially because you may get an envious mother who does nothing to stop her kid from kicking the "rich jerk".


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 993 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 19 hours ago) and read 6848 times:

Why are you unhappy sounds to me like Delta is doing the right thing and trying to lower fuel costs.


One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4750 posts, RR: 44
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 19 hours ago) and read 6831 times:

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 2):
Why are you unhappy sounds to me like Delta is doing the right thing and trying to lower fuel costs.

I guess I'm not thrilled because I enjoy the perks of being Medallion and seperation of class, yeah sounds like a snob.

My biggest complaint is exactly what Ikramerica said, kids often sit in bulkhead rows and will be less than thrilled to be constantly kicked in the back.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23027 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 19 hours ago) and read 6792 times:

I've sat in Row 4 plenty of times on NW aircraft (by aircraft, I mean -9s and 32Xs) and have never been kicked. On NW at least, it's a little far for the kid to kick (except on the XJ Avros, but they're a different animal). To be honest, I don't mind it that much. After all, if you can't snag the upgrade, the bulkhead seats are a pretty nice alternative, especially on shorter segments where there's not a lot of service differentiation. And hey, compared to some other ways to save money, it's not so bad.


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 19 hours ago) and read 6759 times:

I won't mind it as long as Delta opens up Row 10 for elites to pre-select instead of holding them for airport control. I've flown on a few NW DC-9s in Row 5 (no chance for an upgrade as a DL elite) and like the fact that there's underseat storage, a ton of legroom, easy on-off access...by far my favourite seats on the planes. Just put a small hanging divider (like what European airlines use to seperate Business and Economy) and it's fine by me.

User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 993 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 19 hours ago) and read 6734 times:

Ok i understand but one must remember that service isn't what it used to be. I have had kids kick the seats in coach and your right it is annoying. I guess we will just have to deal. Hasn't NW done without them for quite a while now. I think that DeltAirlines has it right about a mutually beneficial situation.


One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 6666 times:

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 5):
I won't mind it as long as Delta opens up Row 10 for elites to pre-select instead of holding them for airport control.

Won't happen. It needs to remain open for passengers with disabilites. Part of Delta's agreement with the DOT several years ago.
Opening up would lead to more elite passengers being displaced from their seat requests to accomadate the passengers with special needs.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
This is not a class thing so much as a kid kicking the back of the seat thing, but I would imagine that since airlines like to seat kids in the first row of Y and kids like to kick seats, that removing this bulkhead will suck. Especially because you may get an envious mother who does nothing to stop her kid from kicking the "rich jerk".

Well on DL the bulkhead typically goes to passengers with disabilites. If none than it goes to elites. Occassionally when none present themselves at the gate or counter requesting bulkhead seating than it will go to a family trying to sit together that had scattered seats. The chances of you being kicked are minimal assuming you choose to always sit in the last row of first class.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 6625 times:

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 7):
Won't happen. It needs to remain open for passengers with disabilites. Part of Delta's agreement with the DOT several years ago.
Opening up would lead to more elite passengers being displaced from their seat requests to accomadate the passengers with special needs.

Just curious as to why Delta would have to place disabled passengers in the bulkhead. Northwest allows half the bulkhead to be reserved for disabled passengers (one side of the plane) and the other half for any elites, and then there is another row of seats in the front part of the coach cabin that only disabled passengers can reserve (passengers have to talk to an agent to be assigned these seats, and they can only be reserved for disabled patrons until the 24-hour mark when all seats open up). I would think this would be the most pleasing situation to everyone - allows elites a shot at getting some bulkhead seats, while still maintaining seats for disabled flyers.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23027 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 6600 times:

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 8):
I would think this would be the most pleasing situation to everyone - allows elites a shot at getting some bulkhead seats, while still maintaining seats for disabled flyers.

NW also will bump elites from bulkheads when necessary to accomodate an unusually large number of disabled pax, so I really don't see why DL must leave them open. If NW needs them, NW makes them available (one way or another).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineFLYACYYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1914 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 17 hours ago) and read 6471 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Thread starter):
Thoughts? I know Air Canada is currently implementing this on the nb aircraft...

This has been in effect for some time on AC's A319's & A320's. I believe the A321's are next. It is a definite weight reduction, but at the time of conversion, it was done mainly for "real estate" purposes, at the request of marketing. It allowed the company to slide in an extra row of Y/C seating.

The only real nuisance is that customers who are in the first row of Economy are now tapping on the seat backs of the last row of Business Class, programming their AVOD TV's.



Above and Beyond
User currently offlineDeltaFFinDFW From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 17 hours ago) and read 6463 times:

I always pick the last row of F when I upgrade on DL due to the fact that most F/As let you leave the seat reclined during takeoff/landing, since it doesn't impede the seat behind you. I almost always sleep on flights, and this helps a lot. I guess if they get rid of the bulkhead, that will change.

User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8675 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 17 hours ago) and read 6445 times:

I wish US and CO would do this on the 757's. It'd be a lot more confortable. I'd like to see that on the 737NG that CO has.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 6326 times:

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 8):
Just curious as to why Delta would have to place disabled passengers in the bulkhead.

The bulkhead has to be available to passengers with disabilities per ADA/DOT requirements. DL has elected as part of a huge settlement with the DOT to keep these seats vacant and readily available to anyone with a disability. The seats are available to customers with disabilities 331 days in advance up to 30 minutes prior to departure time. The seats will then be assigned to those that made the request with the gate agent or to passengers awaiting seat assignments. If you want a bulkhead just request it at the gate; there is a good chance you will get it, but I would assume everyone is sympathetic to the needs of the disabled.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineB4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2644 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 15 hours ago) and read 6222 times:

These new moves by DL are the right economic decision, but I grumble as a passenger b/c on multiple points service elements are decreased. I understand the decision, but am saddended to think that this means that some things won't come back (as if it wasn't clear already).


B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 15 hours ago) and read 6209 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
I've sat in Row 4 plenty of times on NW aircraft

I try to get the last row in F if upgraded so people don't bang the back of the seat or grab the seat for support when getting up.

I could care less about seperation of class or any of that crap, though i would also assume that having solid bulkheads in the cabin help to mitigate noise transfer.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 7):
Well on DL the bulkhead typically goes to passengers with disabilites

Another reason I wouldn't like this, as they are the most likely pax to grab the back of the next seat for support when getting up.

Anyway, I fly CO most often, and only the 735s, IIRC, have curtain bulkheads vs. fixed ones.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 15 hours ago) and read 6173 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
Another reason I wouldn't like this, as they are the most likely pax to grab the back of the next seat for support when getting up.

I still can't get over the lack of people's ability to comprehend and adapt to change. How many times does this happen, honestly. Most passengers with a disability get up what 10 times a flight? I tend to forget how mobile they are. Or maybe that is just on your flights.

ALL OF YOU SHOULD BE APPLAUDING DELTA's EFFORTS TO CONSERVE FUEL. Because it is precious to all of us whether we fly or not.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
Anyway, I fly CO most often, and only the 735s, IIRC, have curtain bulkheads vs. fixed ones.

Then the move will have even smaller of an impact on you.

Quoting B4real (Reply 14):
I grumble as a passenger b/c on multiple points service elements are decreased.

I really see how. Most of the examples probably go unnoticed on a day to day basis (when they actually do occur), but are only being point out to make it seem as though the decision isn't in the best interest of the consumer. When in actuality it will benefit far more than it will impact.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineCOERJ From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 13 hours ago) and read 6015 times:

How Heavy are those bulkheads anyway? I couldn't imagine it would save much fuel. Please correct me if I'm wrong

User currently offlineBohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2701 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 13 hours ago) and read 5999 times:

Bravo Delta!!!!!  praise  The bulkhead row on a 738 are the WORST seats on any DL airplane.  thumbsdown  I am not a tall person but I had NO legroom at all in those miserable seats. The bulkhead row in a CRJ has more legroom. I never knew I had claustrophobia until I sat there.  crowded 

I'm going to borrow a phrase from Ronald Regan and twist it a little:

Mr. Grinstein, TEAR DOWN THAT WALL!!!


User currently offlineAeroplan73 From Canada, joined May 2006, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 12 hours ago) and read 5956 times:

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 2):
Why are you unhappy sounds to me like Delta is doing the right thing and trying to lower fuel costs.

Lowering fuel costs is great, but hopefully not at the expense of key revenue business class sales.



I remember, the choices were chicken or fish. I had the lasagna.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16872 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 12 hours ago) and read 5937 times:

Why don't they start with the obvious and install winglets on their 737-800s before getting to the drastic measures, I've gotten so accustomed to the 737-700s/800s with Winglets that seeing one without the winglets looks out of place.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineN867BX From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 11 hours ago) and read 5685 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
Why don't they start with the obvious and install winglets on their 737-800s before getting to the drastic measures

That would cost money.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8675 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 3 hours ago) and read 4389 times:

Quoting N867BX (Reply 21):
That would cost money.

To save money, you have to spend money.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 2 hours ago) and read 4066 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
Why don't they start with the obvious and install winglets on their 737-800s before getting to the drastic measures, I've gotten so accustomed to the 737-700s/800s with Winglets that seeing one without the winglets looks out of place.

Probably because the 738s are still used on quite a few runs where winglets would only mean additional weight. That said, the 757s coming from AA will have winglets, so that is at least something.


User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 970 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 2 hours ago) and read 3894 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 23):
That said, the 757s coming from AA will have winglets

Hmm...I'm not so sure about that. The 757s coming from AA are the P&W powered ones formerly used by TW (re-stating what has been discussed). They are not owned by AA, and I don't believe AA had any plans to add winglets on to 757s other than their RR powered examples.


25 Widget1580 : Delta allows you to change your seating assignments on their website. If you have a problem with the bulkhead being removed, change your seat. Just be
26 DAL767400ER : Didn't mean that they already have winglets coming from AA. What I mean is that once DL takes delivery of those planes starting next summer, they wil
27 Tod : This is the main reason the some airlines chose a "mudflap" divider over a rigid class divider. You can place the first Y seat must further forward t
28 Ckfred : It seems to me that one advantage is that people in the bulkhead would now have underseat stowage space, under the last row of First. The disavantage
29 474218 : Where do they get the money to pay for these winglets? Remember they are in bankruptcy. Taking the bulkheads out only requires labor but adding wingl
30 Post contains links FlyHoss : Yet, DL does have the money to buy a route from UA (a good move IMHO): RE: DL JFK-LGW Receives Tentative DOT Approval (by Commavia Aug 26 2006 in Civ
31 Post contains images OttoPylit : LOL What sales would be diminished? No seats are being removed. No seating differences are affected. So no loss of revenue sales. Personally, I am sa
32 4xRuv : Oh man, What's next? Maybe they'll remove tha toilets from the plane? just leave holes instead? Or maybe A Y-- class where you just sit on the floor t
33 Aeroplan73 : I realize the business class service would remain intact, but the overall experience could be diminished. A simple curtain wouldn't provide the kind
34 Cubsrule : How much noisier is it really? I fly NW a lot, and I really don't notice that much noise from Y.
35 Ikramerica : Why, exactly, should all people embrace all change? If the change is negative, why accept it. Because Delta's doing it and thus it can't be the wrong
36 Cubsrule : What's the problem? If you are sitting in another row of F, the F passenger behind you can do it just as easily. FWIW, I cannot ever remember having
37 Alitalia744 : Easy there Ikramerica, not all Delta fan boys think this way. I think it's a shitty idea and it annoys me to no end. There have to be other ways for
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