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TAM To Fly GIG-CDG And GRU-MXP (With B772?)  
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7523 times:

Information posted by FelipeGIG, and already rumoured for some time: TAM is in the process of leasing B772s to free up equipment to run daily GIG-CDG or a third daily GRU-CDG. TAM is also planning to start GRU-MXP daily flights asp. The flights would start yet in 2006 or as soon as equipment is leased.

The speculation is that Boeing will facilitate the urgent leasing of B772s to TAM so that TAM in the future could operate a mix fleet, as is already done by many airlines, vide AF-KL. This would pave the way for Boeing to re-gain some of its foothold in the Brazilian/Latin American market taking into account that Boeing's major client in the region (RG) is almost dissipated. Boeing's current major client in the region is GOL, though G3 only operates short-medium-haul routes.

TAM 3rd daily CDG flight + MXP operations would also depend on ANAC's decision to release RG frequencies to these destinations which are now dormant for more than 30 days. Last week there was a meeting between TAM and ANAC to discuss RG's dormant positions.

With a possible deal between RG and AC in the air, TAM should not waste time to grab RG's dormant positions.

Rgs,

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7464 times:

Is the choice for more frequencies to CDG and a new station at MXP related to an envisaged Skyteam membership? JJ has recently extended its codeshare and interline deals with AF. The CDG-GIG route can do with some more capacity. AF's daily B744 on that route is enjoying record breaking load factors and there were rumors of additional AF capacity on the route but such reinforcement has so far not yet materialized, probably because AF wants to protect its own very healthy yields on the route.

User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7389 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 1):
Is the choice for more frequencies to CDG and a new station at MXP related to an envisaged Skyteam membership?

I dont think they are related to SkyTeam, but solely related to market analysis. CDG's has long been a profitable market for JJ, and I'm sure they can also make profit on an extra daily CDG-GIG. MXP was always a profitable station for RG and is on JJ's radar now for more than 4 years - in fact, AZ-RG codeshare agreement was concluded to avoid TAM to operate in MXP.

It is also worth mentioning that recently JJ had access to RG's dataroom and knows exactly in which markets RG was making more profits. You can just look to AZ MXP-GRU numbers you will see that their yields and loads are excellent. GRU, alongside EZE and JFK, are AZ's most profitable long-haul destinations even before RG's demise.

Another point recalling is that TAM's newest international destination, LHR, is OW hub and not SkyTeam.

Rgs,


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32792 posts, RR: 72
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7234 times:

Don't forget TAM is also planning to open a daily MIA-GIG flight.


a.
User currently offlineJJMNGR From Brazil, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7046 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
Don't forget TAM is also planning to open a daily MIA-GIG flight.

There is a big possibility the 3rd flt to CDG operates GIG/CDG.


User currently offlineAwysBSB From Brazil, joined Sep 2005, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7034 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
TAM is in the process of leasing B772s

I would prefer to see A340s in TAM colors... Airbus fits better for TAM.


User currently offlineDonzilasse From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7027 times:

340,s for sure would look nice but, maybe a lease of T7,s can result of better deals from Airbus when they see that TAM also talks to Boing.

User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6923 posts, RR: 63
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7027 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
I dont think they are related to SkyTeam

Did I dream it or did TAM say within the past few months that they'd actually prefer oneworld? I can't begin to recall where I might have read such a thing but the idea is somehow lodged in my mind...


User currently offlineAwysBSB From Brazil, joined Sep 2005, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7003 times:

Quoting Donzilasse (Reply 6):
maybe a lease of T7,s can result of better deals from Airbus when they see that TAM also talks to Boing.

If that is true, TAP should know that.


User currently offlineAntiuser From Italy, joined May 2004, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6657 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
The speculation is that Boeing will facilitate the urgent leasing of B772s to TAM so that TAM in the future could operate a mix fleet

JJ already reiterated their orders for the A350XWB, though... they seem too conservative in their fleet and route expansion to make such a (relatively) spur-of-the-moment decision. My guess is the 777s will be gone as soon as more A330s show up on the market or the A350s begin to roll out of Toulouse.



Azzurri Campioni del Mondo!
User currently offlineAirSpare From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 589 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6469 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 7):
Did I dream it or did TAM say within the past few months that they'd actually prefer oneworld? I can't begin to recall where I might have read such a thing but the idea is somehow lodged in my mind...

TAM Code shares with AA, also with anyone else? A One World fit is marginal IMHO. Traffic from the MIA to GRU is all Brasilian (ok, 85%).

Quoting Antiuser (Reply 9):
My guess is the 777s will be gone

If I were Joe Boeing, I wouldn't bend over backwards to lease some T7s at a good rate. They'll be history as soon as the XWBs are rolling off the line. But a wet lease makes a lot of sense.

Rant on: TAM/AA prices are outrageous. 1600 to NAT from MIA? Give me a break. To bad nobody will open a bi weekly flight to the Northeast. For the price of a ticket on TAM/AA I could go to Cancun for 2 weeks.

Rant off-TAM, buy the T7s and keep serving teh good ole TAM Ham sandwiches.

Tchau

O Safado



Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32792 posts, RR: 72
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6312 times:

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 10):
Traffic from the MIA to GRU is all Brasilian (ok, 85%).

That is just simply wrong. The mix is probably more like 60% from Brazil/40% from Miami.



a.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6230 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Hi Hardi, i confirmed all you posted and considering the source, it will happen!

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 1):
Is the choice for more frequencies to CDG and a new station at MXP related to an envisaged Skyteam membership?

Tam added 4 new destinations with the new agreement with AF, one of them is FRA. RG drop their GIG-FRA service and Tam is looking for some specific points:

- The high cost to improve connections thru GRU (a XXX-GRU flight is profitable but the problem is what to do with the plane on late night GRU-XXX and early morning XXX-GRU: yields and loads for such flights are not healthy)
- GIG keep strong O&D (and in fact TAM keep 8 BSB-GIG, 6 VIX-GIG, 7 CNF-GIG instead of 2 flights to GRU from each destination), and will become the most important hub for the northeast in the near future.
- The end of RG GIG-FRA and GIG-GRU connecting services: TAM knows there are at least 1,000 daily pax nowadays using shuttle service Rio-SP or Tam GRU-GIG services (due to this TAM increase the price for the domestic leg GRU-GIG or GIG-GRU from R$ 99 to R$ 730,00 just to restrict the use for their international flights, and even with this flights are full and several pax need to keep using the shuttle service)
- AF is looking for more frequencies CDG-GIG and Tam knows there are market for another daily flight. If they allow AF begin their additional service before them, the market will be on AF hands.
- TAM will begin CNF-GIG-EZE international service next month, and this service as per their plans will allow CNF pax to connect thru GIG to MIA and CDG, allowing more space for the GRU flights to Sao Paulo and south.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 1):
AF's daily B744 on that route is enjoying record breaking load factors and there were rumors of additional AF capacity on the route but such reinforcement has so far not yet materialized, probably because AF wants to protect its own very healthy yields on the route.

AF lost the time to upgrade their services, now if JJ begin its new flight GIG-CDG i doubt AF will try to upgrade GIG, but if MAD can fill 15 weekly flights, CDG with connections to FRA and all Europe could fill even 18 or 20. If AF runs 14x nowadays, they will get full flights also!

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
Don't forget TAM is also planning to open a daily MIA-GIG flight.

And it will begin probably by jan/fev 2007. TAM could receive 2 new A332 next year as per the MOU they keep with Airbus.

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 4):
There is a big possibility the 3rd flt to CDG operates GIG/CDG.

As per Mr. Bologna info, will be GIG-CDG.

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 10):
TAM Code shares with AA, also with anyone else? A One World fit is marginal IMHO. Traffic from the MIA to GRU is all Brasilian (ok, 85%).

TAM code shares with TACA, Air France and American Airlines. And KLM keep a code-share with TAM to add EZE and GIG as destinations. TAM also keep agreement with JAL.

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 10):
If I were Joe Boeing, I wouldn't bend over backwards to lease some T7s at a good rate. They'll be history as soon as the XWBs are rolling off the line. But a wet lease makes a lot of sense

The 777's will be a temporary aircraft on JJ fleet. They keep a MOU with Airbus to get 6 more A332's during the next 3 years. Probably they will replace the 777 with those A332.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6203 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
And KLM keep a code-share with TAM to add EZE and GIG as destinations.

True, but KL nowadays offers those destinations with AF as well. When booking thru KLM.com the AF flights are always (a lot) more expensive than KL to GRU and then connecting with JJ to EZE. Main drawback of flying with JJ however is that you arrive in EZE in the middle of the night (3AM if I'm not mistaking), whereas the AF flight is much more comfortable.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6184 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Some fresh news:

ANAC has released....

* Allocations provided *

- BRA
7 weekly frequencies Brazil-Italy (5 need to be from Northeast)

- GOL
7 weekly frequencies Brazil-Mexico thru MAO
7 additional weekly frequencies Brazil-Uruguay

- OCEAN AIR
7 weekly frequencies Brazil-Mexico
2 weekly frequencies Brazil-Angola (could be GRU)
7 weekly frequencies Brazil-LAX thru CCS with AV code-share *yes, CCS and not BOG

- TAM
7 additional weekly frequencies Brazil-France (need to be GIG)
7 weekly frequencies Brazil-Italy

Airlines have 90 days to inform the start date of the services.

* No Allocation provided *

BRA requested Brazil-Mexico services - Denied

** Facts **

1- Mexico has been upgraded from 7 to 14 weekly flights: For the Mexico side, probably MX will fly MEX-Brazil in the near future.

2- The fact that Ocean Air will fly GRU-LAD will probably change TAAG plans, and they will fly GIG-SSA-LAD for their 3rd weekly flight.

3- Now JJ have the frequencies for the 3rd CDG flight (from GIG).

4- I am surprised about the LAX option (XXX-CCS-LAX), will be the third player on CCS-Brazil !

Source: ANAC (Agencia Nacional de Aviacao Civil / Civil Aviation National Agency)

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7584 posts, RR: 42
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6154 times:

The OceanAir flights to Mexico will be to MEX?


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25428 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6148 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 14):
7 weekly frequencies Brazil-LAX thru CCS with AV code-share *yes, CCS and not BOG

Interesting...

I'm not sure Ocean can manage to take such a commercial risk operating such a long route on its own. Atleast with a BOG tie in, the marketing of the flight would be easier with Avianca.

However if it were to come into effect it would be the first time LAX-CCS has operated nonstop since the early 1980s when Pan Am flew it a couple times per week as part of its service to Rio from the West Coast.

Also any sign of longer range equipment for Ocean? Can expect the F-100s to make it to Mexico let alone LAX.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDonzilasse From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6096 times:

Felipe,

How long time will Ocean and Bra have before they will have to have these new routes up and running? If they do not meet that deadline will ANAC in that case give these routes to another airline?
Do you know if BRA and Ocean have any deals in the working for suitable aircrafts?

Lasse


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32792 posts, RR: 72
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6087 times:

Ocean Air is another overly ambitiuous Latin American airline that talks big and does little, IMO. I'll believe they are flying to Los Angeles and Africa when they inagural flights take off.


a.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6041 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 15):
The OceanAir flights to Mexico will be to MEX?

Yes, probably GRU-MEX non stop. We will see probably in the near future: GIG-MAO-MEX with G3, GIG-MEX with MX, GRU-MEX with AM/Ocean Air.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 16):
Also any sign of longer range equipment for Ocean? Can expect the F-100s to make it to Mexico let alone LAX.

Rumors of 763 and 752, but nothing confirmed yet.

Quoting Donzilasse (Reply 17):
How long time will Ocean and Bra have before they will have to have these new routes up and running?

They have up to 90 days to begin the flights as to get the frequencies they need to show all the details (which includes details as how they will provide a Stand By Letter of credit in favor of the foreign airport, the slots they will operate, planes and crew rest info among others). This period of time can be extended for 30 days IIRC.

Quoting Donzilasse (Reply 17):
Do you know if BRA and Ocean have any deals in the working for suitable aircrafts?

BRA seems to have capacity to obtain planes, they already keep 1 763 and 1 762 and run regular frequencies to MAD and LIS as well as charters like COL-GIG and MXP-SSA-GIG-GRU (this one will become regular probably as 5x SSA-MXP and 2x GRU-GIG-MXP). They will obtain 1 more 763 as per their plans (probably ex-RG)

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
Ocean Air is another overly ambitiuous Latin American airline that talks big and does little, IMO. I'll believe they are flying to Los Angeles and Africa when they inagural flights take off.

I have to agree with you but i will try to get info on Ocean Air future plans. Probably during the next week Tam, BRA, Gol and Ocean Air will announce their next steps.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6024 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Available in Portuguese as now ANAC is publishing it's decisions:

http://www.dac.gov.br/download/notaTecnica.pdf

ANAC website will be ready in 30 days and all decisions concerning to international or domestic flights, as well as the requests, will be available for us.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6005 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):
Available in Portuguese as now ANAC is publishing it's decisions:

http://www.dac.gov.br/download/notaTecnica.pdf

ANAC website will be ready in 30 days and all decisions concerning to international or domestic flights, as well as the requests, will be available for us.

I'll believe it when I see these flights running.... I honestly doubt half of the announce frequencies will be effectively used ... this just seems a bit too propaganda for me (Oceanair and BRA).


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5842 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
Ocean Air is another overly ambitiuous Latin American airline that talks big and does little, IMO. I'll believe they are flying to Los Angeles and Africa when they inagural flights take off.

Yes, and then after the inaugural flight the route has to be profitable to sustain service - which is also unlikely.



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User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5668 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 22):
Yes, and then after the inaugural flight the route has to be profitable to sustain service - which is also unlikely

A daily flight to LAX seems to be too much! I believe it could be profitable as 2 or 3x weekly, but not so profitable.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
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