Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
US To Add Winglets To 757s  
User currently offlineMu2 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 210 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8838 times:

This was in the weekly newsletter!

Q. A hot trend in the industry right now is retrofitting Boeing
fleets (737/757) with blended winglets for fuel savings. Southwest
has led the way, but Continental, American, Alaska, and Aloha
are some of the other carriers that have caught on. I’ve read
that the ROI (return on investment) is about two years and the
cost savings are significant. Are we ignoring this possible cost
savings? It seems like the aircraft could easily undergo this
modification while going in for the new paint job. What’s the
story?
A. Many airlines are installing these winglets on their airplanes
although it will likely take longer than two years for them to
get their return on investment. The fact is, the business case for
installation depends on how and on what routes an airline intends
to operate the aircraft, the price of the winglets, the price of fuel,
the age of the plane and retirement plans/conditions for the aircraft.
Because of the details involved, it’s not possible, or practical in
some cases, for us to put winglets on much of our fleet. We will,
however, be adding winglets to certain B757 aircraft that we plan
to use primarily for long-range, over water flying well into the next
decade.

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDesertFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8829 times:

I can't wait to see them. It should help with those Hawaii routes.

User currently offlineAviatorTJ From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1838 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8814 times:

Quoting DesertFlyer (Reply 1):
Because of the details involved, it’s not possible, or practical in
some cases, for us to put winglets on much of our fleet.

Read HP 757s, all 733s, and all 734s. Should look cool once these show up. How about winglets on the busses?


User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8802 times:

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 2):
How about winglets on the busses?

Now those would look ridiculous!  yuck 


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8802 times:

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 2):
Read HP 757s, all 733s, and all 734s

No, I am confident its saying they will NOT be putting them on the 733s or 734s.

N


User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2372 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8783 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 4):

No, I am confident its saying they will NOT be putting them on the 733s or 734s.

I think that is what he was trying to say....that the 757s from US East would be the only ones receiveing winglets.

-Aloha



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineSlimChance From United States of America, joined May 2006, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8648 times:

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 2):
How about winglets on the busses?

Oh come on now. Busses don't have wings. Big grin


User currently offlineCharliejag1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8629 times:

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 5):
I think that is what he was trying to say....that the 757s from US East would be the only ones receiveing winglets.

I don't see why we wouldn't put winglets on the ETOPS west 757s. Of the 13 west 757s, 9 of them are ETOPS certified and fly to Hawaii. We also fly them to big markets like DFW, JFK, ORD, etc, but those are mostly non-ETOPS.
The idea is, if the planes fly long legs (hawaii, transcontinental, or europe), the winglets will be worth the investment in about 2 years. I don't see why the east 757s would get them and not the west planes, europe legs are about the same length as hawaii legs and coast to coast flights arent that much shorter, especially in the winter. Besides, the certificates will be merged in Q2 07, so the planes will be interchangable throughout much of the route system, excluding ETOPS and MNPS restrictions.


User currently offlineHawaiian717 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3208 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8560 times:

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 3):
Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 2):
How about winglets on the busses?

Now those would look ridiculous!

You mean like this?


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © French Frogs AirSlides



User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4141 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8329 times:

I'd expect all the ETOPS 757s to get winglets. I think three more are getting certification. I also think the quote above from the employee newsletter only thinly disguises the fact that the 733s and maybe some of the 734s will probably not be too much longer for the US fleet. "Much of our fleet" excluding the 757s...put two and two together.

User currently offlineAviator27 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8223 times:

Winglets are expensive. I believe they go for about $250,000 per set plus one week of non-productive hangar time sitting on the ground. Its not just the price of making the winglets, but the cost of engineering and flight certification included. It is cold hard cash that airlines have to come up with and then lost revenue from not flying that airplane for one week.

On a typical transcon, you can expect to save about 5% in fuel burn. That equates to roughly 625 kg savings for a 5 hour flight on the B737. That is 781 liters of jet fuel or 206 gallons. According to the USDOT, jet fuel cost airlines about $1.91/gallon. So that translates into $394 for one five hour flight. At that rate it would take 635 flights to recoup your money. Please note these are not exact figures but a rough estimate of 2500 kgs/hour fuel burn during cruise for the B737.

There are additional benefits which are hard to quantify, like improved takeoff performance. You need less thrust from the engines and this extends the life of the engines resulting in lower maintenance costs.

Winglets aren't a slam dunk concept. It is interesting to note the longest range airliner, the B777, does not have winglets at all.


User currently offlineMah584jr From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8223 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 9):
the 733s and maybe some of the 734s will probably not be too much longer for the US fleet

I do agree that within the next few years that the US 737 fleet will diminish significantly.

I love winglets and I think the 757 winglets will look fantastic on US 757s. Is there any clue as to when they may be installing them?

Also, for those of you who work for US, is there anything else noteworthy that you are able to share from the company newsletter?


User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8219 times:

Quoting Mah584jr (Reply 11):
Also, for those of you who work for US, is there anything else noteworthy that you are able to share from the company newsletter?

Sure, but you can read it for yourself.  Smile

http://justplanenews.com/PDF/aboutUS_082406.pdf

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineCharliejag1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7957 times:

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 10):
There are additional benefits which are hard to quantify, like improved takeoff performance. You need less thrust from the engines and this extends the life of the engines resulting in lower maintenance costs.

This is absolutely false. Winglets have nothing to do with takeoff performance. Winglets save fuel costs in cruise by preventing the wing from losing lift when higher pressure air under the wing curls around the wingtip to the top of the wing (lower pressure air). This action creates wingtip vortices, which create a certain amount of drag. Basically, winglets save a little lift and prevent a little drag.
Takeoff performance is all about thrust versus weight, it has nothing to do with lift. Once you are in the air, I suppose it could be argued that winglets improve climb performance a tiny bit, but not enough to make much of a difference.

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 10):
Winglets aren't a slam dunk concept. It is interesting to note the longest range airliner, the B777, does not have winglets at all.

I agree. The 777 has the most advanced and 'perfect' wing so far. I'm sure this means that it loses less air around the wingtip, but you'd think that winglets would ahve been mentioned at some point.


User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2372 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7862 times:

Quoting Charliejag1 (Reply 7):

I don't see why we wouldn't put winglets on the ETOPS west 757s. Of the 13 west 757s, 9 of them are ETOPS certified and fly to Hawaii. We also fly them to big markets like DFW, JFK, ORD, etc, but those are mostly non-ETOPS.

I think the assumption that only the East 757s will be wingletted is because the West 757s are much older old and the original post alluded to the fact that they wanted to be able to keep wingletted planes for 10 or more years to justify the capital expenditure.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineAviator27 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7848 times:

Quoting Charliejag1

This is absolutely false. Winglets have nothing to do with takeoff performance. Winglets save fuel costs in cruise by preventing the wing from losing lift when higher pressure air under the wing curls around the wingtip to the top of the wing (lower pressure air). This action creates wingtip vortices, which create a certain amount of drag. Basically, winglets save a little lift and prevent a little drag.

Takeoff performance is all about thrust versus weight, it has nothing to do with lift. Once you are in the air, I suppose it could be argued that winglets improve climb performance a tiny bit, but not enough to make much of a difference.


I am sorry to say but you are 100% absolutely incorrect about this. Winglets reduce drag during all phases of flight not just cruise.

B737 Advanced Blended Winglets

Boeing: Commercial Airplanes - 737 - Winglets

Feel free to educate yourself on the benefits on blended winglets from the above website. Regards.

[Edited 2006-08-27 10:54:35]

User currently offlineGilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3052 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7097 times:

I think there is a good excuse to put the winglets on all the 757's in both the US and HP fleets.

US use their 757's on some quite long routes from their PHL base, like LAS, MIA, FLL, LIS, GLA and DUB.

Then you have the HP aircraft flying to the likes of HNL.


User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2693 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6920 times:

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 10):
It is interesting to note the longest range airliner, the B777, does not have winglets at all.

But the 773ER and the 772LR do have raked wingtips.

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 17):
MIA

AFAIK, US no longer flies 757s into MIA.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8690 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6867 times:

I have seen these new a/c ( ex ATA), and can tell you that the winglets will be going on and can tell you that they will look spectacular. In my opinion 5 other a/c should be ETOPS certified from the US east fleet. That would make 8 a/c instead of 3 availible to Euro runs.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineFlyLKU From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 829 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 6732 times:

This is off topic a bit but we are flying PHL to LIS at the end of this week on US Airways. I was told that the 757s they use on this route are leased from ATA for the summer season and so have a different seating layout.

Can anyone confirm?



...are we there yet?
User currently offlineM180up From El Salvador, joined May 2006, 403 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 6711 times:

Quoting FlyLKU (Reply 20):
This is off topic a bit but we are flying PHL to LIS at the end of this week on US Airways. I was told that the 757s they use on this route are leased from ATA for the summer season and so have a different seating layout.

Can anyone confirm?

The 757 were bought from ATA, and have different seating layout, only coach and the first 2 rows have domestic first class, you can pay an upgrade at the gate and have a little more perks.



Werner from SAL
User currently offlineUnited_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7540 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6286 times:

Any idea when 757 winglets will be approved for P&W 75's . UA could use these on PS transcons and Hawaii flights.


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6218 times:

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 22):
Any idea when 757 winglets will be approved for P&W 75's . UA could use these on PS transcons and Hawaii flights.

NW is going to start ETOPS flights with wingletted PW2000 powered 757s from DTW to a few different european destinations in spring, so likely soon.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4141 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6195 times:

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 17):
US use their 757's on some quite long routes from their PHL base, like LAS, MIA, FLL, LIS, GLA and DUB.

PHL-Florida isn't really that long a route.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6531 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6177 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 23):
is going to start ETOPS flights with wingletted PW2000 powered 757s from DTW to a few different european destinations in spring, so likely soon.

NWA has never officially announced this, although it probably is true.


25 AvConsultant : I've not read otherwise, considering this is an Airbus operator I guess this shows they're committed to the 757.
26 Ouboy79 : Except for the fact that the ex-HP 757s are junk and will probably be gone long before the US East birds. I've heard several comments about how pathe
27 N62NA : Aren't some of the US East 757's the original Eastern Airlines examples which were among the first built?
28 Charliejag1 : Good point, the west planes are ancient. I'm standing by my statement. If you read my post, I referred to takeoff performance (first stage, on the gr
29 Captaink : Among the points mentioned here are, "improve takeoff performance and obstacle clearance, listed as two separate factors. Could it be that because of
30 DeltaRules : Ten of them are, N600-N609AU. In fact, N600AU was the third 757 off the line. A few of HP's 757s were also early models from Eastern. DeltaRules
31 Aviator27 : Takeoff performance isn't limited to takeoff roll distance. In transport category airplanes, accelerate stop distance, accelerate go distance, and sin
32 Charliejag1 : You're right. I know at least N902AW is a former Eastern frame, originally delivered to Eastern in 1985. Aviator27, I understand and agree with your
33 HPRamper : You're forgetting that ten of US Airways' 34 or so 757s are, in fact, older than any 757 in the HP fleet. Sure, the ex-Eastern birds are old, but the
34 Post contains images Ouboy79 : Nope, I remember where the original ones came from. Junk does not equal old.
35 GeorgiaAME : Could there be any justification to adding a "winglet" or raked tip to the horizontal stabilizers?
36 Charliejag1 : Well, its a similar situation except on a much smaller scale. The Beech 1900 has vertical appendices on the horizontal stabs. Most of the time, the h
37 MCOflyer : How many of the US east will be retrofitted? I presume more than 3. MCOflyer
38 MCOflyer : 2.2hrs on a 757 which equals to 1013 miles according to GCM. MCOflyer
39 Post contains images HPRamper : Nope, not long at all for a 757
40 Gilesdavies : Granted, it is probably not worth adding winglets to the older birds as they will probably be gone within the next few years and takes several years
41 DTWAGENT : If you ask me using the B757 for transatlantic flights is a bit to much. I just got back from GLA and SNN on US B757 and fully books their is no room
42 Ouboy79 : Exactly my point. Let's look at the the the old HP birds and their reliability on the Hawaii runs. Especially when they have to turn back because the
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
AA Seeking To Add Winglets On 757s posted Wed Jul 13 2005 00:03:07 by Squirrel83
US To Add 6 More Seats On Its 319's posted Fri Jul 7 2006 22:59:23 by B6767200
US/HP PHX To HNL 757s posted Thu Dec 8 2005 08:43:09 by Boeing 747-311
Article: US Airways To Add Phila. Jobs posted Wed Jan 12 2005 18:16:41 by PHLBOS
US To Add Grand Bahama Island Service From PHL posted Fri Nov 8 2002 01:17:55 by ScottysAir
US Airways Express To Add Wash And Tor posted Wed Jun 5 2002 16:45:34 by Flyingbronco05
US Airways Proposes To Add 70 Regional Jets posted Sun Apr 14 2002 12:50:01 by Flying-Tiger
Why So Long To Clear Us To The Assigned Altitude? posted Thu Nov 16 2006 18:48:32 by Golftango
US To Start LAS-PBI posted Mon Nov 13 2006 19:50:45 by Falcon Flyer
Help - Which Non-US Airlines Fly To Grand Cayman? posted Thu Nov 2 2006 03:22:47 by Nickofatlanta