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Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II  
User currently offlineM180up From El Salvador, joined May 2006, 403 posts, RR: 5
Posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 34010 times:

The other thread was already too long for some users bandwith.
Post your comments and updates here.


Werner from SAL
170 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4091 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 33815 times:

I'm listening to a pilot on CNN now who is doing a good job of laying out the facts and the issues. BUT, he seemed to be almost implying that the runway wasn't where it shouldn't have been as the cause for the accident (Bad Runway...Bad Runway!)...nothing about pilot error, as though it couldn't possibly have been that. I realize that there are a whole host of reasons for why the crew did what they did.

An interesting point he brought up was 'wheels up' time. In other words, use your slot or lose it. Could that have rushed the crew to 'get going' in a very speedy way? Still, I'm wondering if 'slots' are even an issue at dawn on a Sunday morning. It's not like a normal weekday, where flights are all over the place at dawn and you have to get hopping for flow control purposes. There's not a whole lot of 'flow control' going on at dawn on a Sunday, is there?

Chris in NH


User currently offlineGarri767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 33756 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 1):
There's not a whole lot of 'flow control' going on at dawn on a Sunday, is there?

not at LEX as far as i know, although that does bring up an interesting point or two

[Edited 2006-08-27 21:44:36]

User currently offlineNkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2661 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 33702 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 1):
An interesting point he brought up was 'wheels up' time. In other words, use your slot or lose it. Could that have rushed the crew to 'get going' in a very speedy way?

Does anyone know if there was a GDP in ATL this morning?? I would hope that the crew wouldn't rush though even with this!!



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineATLAaron From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1023 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 33644 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

What is GDP? (besides Gross Domestic Product which I do not think is the case here)  Big grin

User currently offlineNkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2661 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 33644 times:

GDP= Ground Delay Program.. or flow control it is sometimes called


I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineDTW757 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1557 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 33592 times:

Although it seems so easy to say they took off on the short runway, I have to ask myself how and why two experienced pilots would blast off down an unlit runway in the dark? Seems improbable.


721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,388,146,CR2,7,ERJ,
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 33592 times:

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 341):
By Comair not answering ANY questions regarding the runway issue including saying what runway the aircraft took off from, is not a good sign. To me that means they know there is a problem and are facing liability issues.

It might appear that way, but he's just following proper protocol...

Once there is an accident like this, it becomes the NTSB's investigation. Comair will obviously be one of the "parties" to the investigation (along with others), and as a "party" they must defer all questions on the investigative aspect of the accident to the NTSB. If a party violates this basic tenet, they can be excluded from the investigation, and that's not something that you wants to have happen. IIRC, the someone from the controller's union made some inappropriate comments re: the investigation into the DC-9 and 727 that collided on a foggy runway at DTW some years back, and "poof" the controller's group lost their "party" status.

Comair will continue to comment, I'm sure, on items related to the victims, as they should, but they will not be commenting on possible or rumored causes of the accident, no matter how many time the media will ignore explanations of the above "Party" system, and ask "what caused the crash" questions anyways.
.

[Edited 2006-08-27 21:51:54]

User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 33527 times:

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 6):
I have to ask myself how and why two experienced pilots would blast off down an unlit runway in the dark? Seems improbable.

Looking at airport publications, the short runway at Lex had lights. ChrisNH where did you hear that pilot on CNN, was it a video? I'm also curious to look at the plane, they say the plane was actually intact but it caught fire.

[Edited 2006-08-27 21:55:49]

User currently offlineVasanthD From India, joined May 2005, 450 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 33360 times:

CNN just reported the Radar archive does prove the takeoff happend in the wrong runway.


One Lucky shot deserves another!
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 33261 times:

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 6):
Seems improbable

Then why is everything beginning to point to that?

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 7):
Comair will continue to comment, I'm sure, on items related to the victims, as they should, but they will not be commenting on possible or rumored causes of the accident, no matter how many time the media will ignore explanations of the above "Party" system, and ask "what caused the crash" questions anyways.
.

Of course they are not going to say anything, curious to see how the F/O is handled. He holds all the answers.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 33207 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 8):
Looking at airport publications, the short runway at Lex had lights.

Yes, it did, but the MIRL on 8/26 were notam'ed out of service indefinately...

NTSB has a press briefing at 1700 eastern time...


User currently offlineAlaska737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1063 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 32902 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
Quoting DTW757 (Reply 6):
Seems improbable

Then why is everything beginning to point to that?

thers nothing else to point to!!! the position of the A/C in relation to the runway is the first indicator and we all know that a CRJ cant take off in that short of distance so IDK what else we can say happend. RIP to the victims


User currently offlineXjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2460 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 32843 times:

Flow control problems happen any time during any day. This is one thing that drives me nuts as a CSR, is that the weather is beautiful and at the destination it is horrible. So when they hear they are on a GDP, they get angry because they only see the weather in front of them.

XJR



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlineGAIsweetGAI From Norway, joined Jul 2006, 933 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 32843 times:

More news- basically what was being said in part 1:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060827/..._ot/kentucky_crash_investigation_1



"There is an art, or rather a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
User currently offlineJorge1812 From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 3149 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 32773 times:

Cause I can't view th other thread with my 56k Modem....what happened and how many people survived/died?

Georg


User currently offlineM180up From El Salvador, joined May 2006, 403 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 32698 times:

Quoting Jorge1812 (Reply 15):
Cause I can't view th other thread with my 56k Modem....what happened and how many people survived/died?

Georg

A Comair plane crashed in LEX today, early in the morning, the FO has survived, is at the hospital, 2 more crews died, and 47 passengers.



Werner from SAL
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 32591 times:

I foind this on flightaware.com:

In 1993, the pilot of an air carrier filed a report with the NASA ASRS (aviation safety reporting system) after nearly departing from runway 26 when instructed to depart from runway 22 at Lexington.

The report reads, "Aircraft was cleared for immediate takeoff (traffic was inside the marker) on runway 22 at KLEX. We taxied onto the runway and told tower we needed a moment to check our departure routing with our weather radar (storms were in the area, raining at the airport). We realized our heading was not currect for our assigned runway and at that moment, tower called us to cancel the takeoff clearance because we were lined up on runway 26. We taxied clear and then held short of runway 22 for landing traffic. We took off on runway 22 and proceeded without incident. Possible contributing factors were poor visibbility and weather (rain. Confusing runway intersection and tower's request for an immediate takeoff. Suggest possible warning page (similar to Houston Hobby) to clarify multiple runway ends."


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21496 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 32455 times:

I don't understand why some people still refuse to believe that the plane took off from the wrong runway. It happened. It's not debatable.

Quoting Xjramper (Reply 13):
Flow control problems happen any time during any day. This is one thing that drives me nuts as a CSR, is that the weather is beautiful and at the destination it is horrible. So when they hear they are on a GDP, they get angry because they only see the weather in front of them.

Probably because it's not explained to them. People get angry with lack of information. I've been on airlines where the information is provided: "Due to poor weather in Atlanta, the flight is being held here in XYZ. Once we are given a clear path to Atlanta, we will be on our way." Passengers are not unreasonable, but flying is stressful and people don't like being left in the dark about their own lives.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDTW757 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1557 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 32382 times:

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 12):
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
Quoting DTW757 (Reply 6):
Seems improbable

Then why is everything beginning to point to that?

thers nothing else to point to!!! the position of the A/C in relation to the runway is the first indicator and we all know that a CRJ cant take off in that short of distance so IDK what else we can say happend. RIP to the victims

It has been reported that RWY 8/26 is unlit and that to me didn't make any sense of how two trained pilots could mistake that for the main runway. After looking it up myself on airnav.com it appears that 8/26 is indeed lit which makes more sense.



721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,388,146,CR2,7,ERJ,
User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3526 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 32382 times:

Alrite, I want to preface my post by saying this:

what I'm about to say is not in anyway a condemnation or accusation of the crew in this crash, and it has definitely not been confirmed by anyone and is just speculation on my part. I also realize that despite my Commercial Pilots License with MEL/SEL/IR additions, I am still NOT a qualified CRJ-200 pilot. Furthermore, the Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 that I used to simulate flight conditions is definitely not the see all and end all of this investigation, and there are many limitations associated with using such a device to re-create an accident such as this one.

That being said, here goes.

Earlier, I re-created the known conditions of this accident (airport, time, runways) and speculated on the fairly unknown but probable conditions (aircraft weight/load out, temp/weather/dewpoint/wind) using an open source free-ware CRJ-200 aircraft downloaded at flightsim.com some time ago. As i stated above, I am not a CRJ certified/qualified pilot and am engaging in purely monday-morning quarterbacking activities. Also, this aircraft seems to be fairly accurate in terms of demonstrating the capabilites of the CRJ, but who really knows right? mainly, I did this to simulate actual conditions for the taxi to the runway.

I started from the gate, and taxied to the runway. They most likely received their departure clearance from the gate, and would have inputed the numbers -- ass. altitude and heading, vertical speed, v-speeds, etc... -- at the gate.

From the position of the gates at the field, to taxi to rwy 22 (assigned runway) they would have to taxi directly across the end of rwy 26 (shorter runway). If the pilots forgot to turn on the flight director, or perhaps forgot to press the activator switch for the heading function of the flight director, it is possible that they would not have been made aware directly by the flight director if they confused rwy 26 with rwy 22 -- most aircraft are assigned to fly runway heading immediately after take-off when getting an IFR clearance -- they would have inputed the assigned runway heading (220) at some point before the take off, either at the gate or on the taxi.

At the time of their take-off (6:06am), it was dark out. Perhaps a bit lighter out than it would have been at midnight, but much darker than civil twilight. The flight crew would have seen runway lights on their runway, and an intersecting runway that also had lights, coming from the same direction it would have been had they been on the correct runway. The trees at the end of the runway would not be visible at this time due to the darkness, and the fact that the runway was shorter would not be visible from the runway lights due to the fact that darkness would have just made the lights most likely stand out against the inifiniti of the darkness.

I have heard speculation or heresay about there being some kind of blind-spot or spotting difficulty from the control tower to the beginning of 26, especially in the darkness of early morning.

Can anyone else see the Human Factors "hoops" lining up? Night-time...crew with short rest...shorter runway comes before the assigned runway...perhaps a hard-off time...factors which all by themselves or even stacked together nothing really to worry about. But, one small slip up by the crew or atc, or perhaps some ultra-small aircraft problem (perhaps a small light in the cockpit went out or something crazy like that)...and the events come together in a dramatic fashion such as this.

And for a small FYI, i obviously tried the take-off on the flight-sim as well. First go of it with take-off flaps and regular throttle movements, V1 at 131, pull up with the flight director...hit the trees at the end and dive straight in...much like the Comair 5191.

Second go of it was a short field config...hold the breaks, let the engines spool up, and lo and behold, you can make it.

Not saying that they should have done the short field take-off...they were most likely very unaware of their blunder onto the wrong runway, and under normal circumstances there would be no need for high-per. take-off.

Anyway, that's my two cents, and nothing concrete. Just some speculation and educated guessing.

Don't flame please.

[Edited 2006-08-27 23:09:04]


Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 32263 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 18):
I don't understand why some people still refuse to believe that the plane took off from the wrong runway. It happened. It's not debatable.

I believe they did take off from RWY26, the question is "how" could both crew members have made that mistake simultaneously. According to OPNLguy, the lights were off indefinitely as of yesterday. I am also wondering how an experienced crew (seeing RWY22's threshold and runways lights ahead of them) could possibly turn into the darkness to line up on RWY26, much less firewall the throttles for a takeoff run. It just doesn't make any sense at this point.


User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5641 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 32165 times:

It seems from the early reports that at least some of the passengers might have survived the impact but were unable to evacuate the aircraft before it was engulfed in flames. I ask this question as someone who's never been on a regional jet ... do the cramped cabins on RJ's make them more difficult to evacuate than mainline aircraft?


"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 32165 times:

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 6):
Although it seems so easy to say they took off on the short runway, I have to ask myself how and why two experienced pilots would blast off down an unlit runway in the dark? Seems improbable.

There was airport construction where the taxiways did not match the charts apparently. Also, looks like they were on a continuous duty overnight... its a tricky way of getting around rest requirements. They put you on duty all night long and move your "rest" period during the middle of the day. Therefore, they can make your rest as short as they like at night... To make a long story short, your pilots up front on an early morning departure may have only gotten 3 hours of sleep that night. It sounds like they got in after midnight and left at 6am, 5 hours on the ground, including time getting ready for the flight, on the hotel van, etc.

So, a confusing situation plus a retardedly tired crew, and its easy to see how it could've happend.

You'd be scared if you knew how little sleep your crew up front may have gotten, day after day after day. Sometimes whats legal isn't whats safe.


User currently offlineDTW757 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1557 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 32056 times:

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 21):
According to OPNLguy, the lights were off indefinitely as of yesterday.

Do we know with any certainty that these lights were on or off?



721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,388,146,CR2,7,ERJ,
25 Boston92 : I tend to believe the THEORY that the craft did takeoff from the wrong rnwy. Rnwy 22 had just been repaved and the numbers might not have been visibl
26 APFPilot1985 : I just found out that a friend and fellow pilot was confirmed as being on the plane. Very sad to hear.
27 We're Nuts : Is anyone else wondering why, if fire crews arrived within seconds, and the plane was mostly intact, there is but a sole survivor?
28 Post contains links F9Animal : Something from the other thread that I found interesting. Plus the last post on the other thread stated that the flight crew was on minimal rest. I ha
29 Post contains images Trekster : So sorry to hear that
30 F9Animal : I thought they do not have lighting on that runway, or perhaps they said it was a daylight only GA runway.
31 Goldenshield : That runway is too short to take off from for ANY turbine aircraft flying passengers under part 121. A 737, 757, A320, MD80, ERJ, etc., could not tak
32 DTW757 : According to airnav.com the runway is lit with sidelights. Runway 8/26 Dimensions: 3500 x 75 ft. / 1067 x 23 m Surface: asphalt/concrete, in poor con
33 APFPilot1985 : I'm not debating that, no kidding about that runway. The runway being only 5290 is still right at the minimum for an RJ. Come and watch one take off
34 Toering : I see, according to Flight Explorer, a DL 757 has left LEX ( DAL9865) . Could this be an aircraft bringing Delta's CEOs, and PRES, ect... to and from
35 KATL757 : Well.... Mary Schiavo was just on CNN running her mouthpiece about the accident this morning. She should be making the rounds soon, ie FOX, MSNBC.
36 Post contains links KarlB737 : The investigation team is beginning to set up lights at the crash site in preparation for a long night. Non-stop video stream from WLEX-TV: http://www
37 MD80fanatic : WHAS Channel 11 just had an airport official state that no construction was in progress anywhere on airport property at the time of the crash, also he
38 THVGJP : Why are the officials reluctant in releasing the tail no. of the aircraft. I have heard from the news conference they wont release tail no yet, why no
39 OPNLguy : I think it's more accurate to say that LEX 08/26 is equipped with edge lighting (MIRL). Whether or not the installed MIRL was actually operational or
40 NIKV69 : Yea, it's called fire and explosions and smoke. No matter how fast a fire truck can get on scene if the fire is intense there is little they can do,
41 JBo : Yes, but did you note the NOTAM text immediately underneath?: Translation: Medium-Intensity Runway Lighting on Runway 08/26 out of service indeflinit
42 DMAJ7TH : hello all, i am very new to a.net, although i have been reading the threads on here for quite a long time. i finally joined today because of the lured
43 LTBEWR : Most probably flight Comair 5191 took off from the wrong runway from our 'reasoned' observations, but only a full NTSB investigation, which will take
44 KarlB737 : Press Release Source: Comair Comair Provides Updated Information Regarding Flight 5191 Sunday August 27, 4:43 pm ET LEXINGTON, Ky., Aug. 27, 2006 (PR
45 Laxatljfkcvg : The comair building at CVG today was packed!!
46 146CREW : Anyone out their from OH that can verify if this was a Continuous Duty Overnight (CDO)/Standup? Thanks.
47 DavidT : Comair President gave the tail number and registration in that conference (before cycles+hours)
48 Jdl1527 : All aircraft must be able to pass evacuation tests before certification, the fact of the matter is you should be able to get out of an CRJ in the sam
49 Post contains images Shamrocka330 : Couldn't agree more, well said. Welcome to airliners.net
50 APFPilot1985 : It was comair 191. The delta Flight number was 5191 however that is used for ticketing purposes only. The official flight number and what it will be
51 DeC : One of the most mature comments i've read in a.net, imo, one that truly capture the essence of the internet’s largest online aviation community, ex
52 Post contains links DeC : Excellent info from aviation-safety.net 27 AUG 2006 Canadair CRJ200ER N431CA or N435CA Comair, Lexington, KY, USA 49(50) http://aviation-safety.net/da
53 FlyDeltaJets : LOF 9865/27AUG ORG SKED ETD OUT OFF DST SKIN ETA IN DP SHIP PSG LP GATE LEX 1400 1430 1442 1500 ATL 1525 1613 1612 61 0655 083 DC T04 **FLIGHT STATUS
54 Post contains links DeC : "In the meantime work had been performed on the runways at LEX. Since October 2003 for instance a runway resurfacing project was started. The project
55 Jdl1527 : thanks
56 M180up : Welcome aboard, really good post.
57 Contrails : The NTSB just announced that the plane did indeed depart from runway 26. Incredible.
58 Post contains links DeC : CNN has a very interesting video as well: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/27/plane.crash/index.html lower left side of the page, entitled: Witnesses, of
59 Ginger727 : Wasn't the flight number of the American DC-10 takeoff accident in Chicago back in 1979 Flight 191 also? That's pretty creepy.
60 NIKV69 : Very Now the question is where he was cleared to depart. Let's hear the CVR please.
61 LHR777 : Just want to add my sincerest, deepest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims of this tragedy. I always feel sad when my colleague
62 Jdl1527 : So ok we got it from the horses mouth, 191 departed from rwy 26, i guess that means an end to speculations on that topic, now on to WHY they took of f
63 RIXrat : NTSB news conference just concluded confirms that Comair took off from runway 26, although pilots confirmed they were lined up for runway 22.
64 Jdl1527 : BTW not that it matters much but was this a 200 or 100
65 NIKV69 : Probably the most profound statement from an expert. CNN- "Was this runway long enough for this aircraft to take off?" Bob Francis - "No" An expert ha
66 N844AA : As well as the DL L-1011 flight that crashed at DFW in 1985.
67 Post contains links DeC : 200 Canadair CL-600-2B19 (CRJ200ER) Regional Jet http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20060827-0
68 Post contains images AirTranTUS : NTSB says it was a 100. Did anyone else think that the NTSB lady was unprepared? She seemed to not know what was going on. She also said at the end o
69 RedFlyer : One factor often not mentioned or certainly not put into proper context is the fact that complacency plays a huge role in pilot error. If you read th
70 APFPilot1985 : Comair still is calling it a 100 and the filed flight plan says 100
71 MCOflyer : May he RIP. God bless you and his family. I have one question, who was piloting the a/c? MCOflyer
72 TexARN : Latest report from press conference stated that some had survived the initial impact, but tragically died with the ensuing fire. Two bodies recovered
73 DMAJ7TH : fully agree
74 Post contains links DTW757 : It would appear that the lights were suppose to be out of service on 8/26 but there are reports that the lights were indeed on. Here is one report th
75 APFPilot1985 : Thank you for your words. The guy that I knew however wasn't a crew member on the flight, just a pilot.
76 DTW757 : Two flights actually departed moments before this flight. A CRJ and an ERJ. I'd be quite certain that they took off on 22. Why then would 191 turn on
77 Planespotting : yes but, most likely the runway was long enough for the aircraft to get off the ground. Odds are, the crew realized that they were heading for trees
78 MCOflyer : Your welcome, see my PM. MCOflyer
79 71Zulu : Saw on another board that it has been confirmed that an Air Tran F/O was on the flight commuting to ATL, not sure if he was on the jump seat or in the
80 Planespotting : He would have been in the cabin, pilots from other airlines are not allowed in the cockpit when jumpseating, unless the rules have recently been chan
81 OPNLguy : If both the airlines involved are paricipants in CASS, he could have theoretically been up front...
82 Planespotting : oooh when did that start!? I had heard about that during my time at WN but they were still aways away from it from being implemented..?
83 F9Animal : Yikes. I think I would be perfectly ready to face a room full of reporters after I visited the wreckage, and witnessed the horror first hand. Not to
84 APFPilot1985 : I don't know if he would have wanted to though, the jumpseat in a CRJ is horrible narrow and uncomfortable I am sure that they would have been able t
85 F9Animal : NTSB also stated that the aircraft did clip the airport fence. I doubt this bird even got much more than 100 feet off the ground. I wonder if the gear
86 Post contains links and images Litz : If nobody was able to open the forward doors, and the overwing exits were blocked by fire (remember, crash on takeoff, lots of fuel in the wingtanks)
87 Cyberflyer : let's cut to the chase..this is horrible...what you are going to find is that a very incompetent flight crew for some inexplicable reason took off on
88 Post contains links 71Zulu : F9, I don't think the plane even got that high. There are wheel marks in the grass off the departure end of 26 and it went through the perimeter fenc
89 Post contains images OPNLguy : True, but if all the seats in the back have revenue pax and you still need to commute into the domicile (ATL), you sometimes don't have much choice..
90 DTWAGENT : May God be with the families of those on that flight. May he also be with everyone in this industry as this is a very sad day for all of us. May God b
91 Upsmd11 : I send my gratitude to all those involved in rescue and recovery of this tragic flight and my deepest sympathy to the families of the flight as well.
92 OPNLguy : CASS has been around for a couple of years now... 2, maybe 3 years?
93 RL757PVD : The only quasi-logical explanation for the mistake could be something like if ATC said "Comair 191 taxi Runway 22" as opposed to "Comair 191 taxi Runw
94 Goldenshield : It's more comfortable than a few other jumpseats in bigger aircraft that I've flown in—that I can say for sure.
95 NIKV69 : This is so funny. Well I guess Bob Francis meant that, but actually he gave us the distance this type of AC needs to safely take off at max weight. W
96 DMAJ7TH : when studying the airport diagram today, i couldn't help but think of other airports i go into with similar runway layouts. i've only been into LEX on
97 FutureFO : Unfortunately I start a 4 day trip tomorrow and the 2nd and 3rd legs are a LEX turn in and out of CVG. Also on the 3rd day of the trip the same thing.
98 KcrwFlyer : Actually, there seems to be quite a difference in markings now at most airports. Most commercial runways have precision markings provided they have I
99 AirWillie6475 : I just heard from another pilot forum that the jumpseater was an Airtran pilot going to ATL to start his day.
100 Ah414211 : Actually starting tomorrow the 6:00am flight from LEX-ATL is an ERJ145 operated by Freedom. Today was the last day that the 6:00am flight was schedul
101 F9Animal : " target=_blank>http://www.heraldleaderphoto.com/fea....html Good link to the pics! No, he did not even get off the ground, judging by the tire tracks
102 Post contains images Gh123 : On this photo you can see how the wheels struck the bank, then took down the fence and then topped the trees. I suppose as there is no nose wheel mar
103 Litz : I'll tell you this ... except for their distpatch rate (which has been dismal), the '145 is a far nicer plane to ride in than the crj100/200 ... It's
104 Upsmd11 : Well I know the CRJ is safe but for my nerves I would be happier on the ERJ that soon after a crash. I fly SDF - IAH - ONT tomorrow on CO 145 and 739
105 Post contains images Gh123 :
106 F9Animal : GH123, Where did you get that photo? Makes you wonder why the Captain did not survive then. Flight deck appears in pretty good shape.
107 Post contains images AsstChiefMark : I drew an arrow where I see nosewheel marks. Mark
108 Countrypotter : Please forgive me if these questions have been addressed in earlier posts. I have always been under the impression (perhaps mistaken) that a crash (of
109 Litz : Oh my ... that photo of the cockpit right up against the tree certainly makes you wonder about the evacuation - if the fuselage is still behind the co
110 Dtwclipper : I have a naive question, I'm not a pilot, so I don't know. Here goes: Since the runways in question were not parallel, wouldn't the compass on the air
111 Flyfisher1976 : I agree with this assessment, this is a really dramatic photo. It clearly shows the impact of the mains on the berm. As you mentioned, it probably ga
112 Aogdesk : Whew, its a miracle that people like yourself come along to set the rest of the world straight. IF you have time, call the NTSB to inform them that t
113 Hmmmm... : Pilot error is always the least popular theory on airliners.net.
114 DMAJ7TH : this can't be a serious statement. there's gotta be people on here that just try to be rabble rousers.
115 RedFlyer : Do you realize the g-forces the occupants of that plane endured when it impacted? They can only exit if they A) remained sufficiently conscious (cohe
116 71Zulu : I think you are right on. The gear could have been in the process of retracting or could have collapsed on the left side resulting in the left wing d
117 Aogdesk : Not naive at all, very good question. My GUESS is that will be one factor in the chain of events that led to this tragedy. So much effort goes into c
118 Ordryan28 : such a shame, may everyone who has perished R.I.P Or those affected by this tragedy, we hope you know our thoughts and prayers are with you. May God B
119 71Zulu : One of the on-scene officials on a live TV interview said that the evidence showed that some passenger evacuation attempts were made. He would not el
120 Countrypotter : Would that not indicate that the explosion occurred after impact?
121 Mpsrent : Perhaps the pilots or ATC on this site could explain to us novices as to what point ATC would pick up that a flight was on the wrong runway? Please ex
122 Gh123 : Yes you are right - and as a pilot I can tell you that it is standard operating procedure to do that. The CRJ has exits on both sides of the aircraft
123 777236ER : Regarding the numbers of deaths vs. the AF A340; the accidents aren't alike. The A340 left the runway at a relatively slow speed, at a normal attitude
124 DTW757 : I was wondering that too. These photos are pretty close for it only being the day of the crash.
125 Gh123 : I agree. Sad but probably true.
126 MJackson : I'm not sure whether the pilots are incompetent. I am sure that they neglected to perform their duties. They carry charts/plates, there are taxiway/ru
127 Gh123 : I got them from the local paper's website and also the Daily Mail in the UK. They have now removed ALL of the bodies from the scene. Also two of the
128 Post contains images Bobster2 : Yes, the distance remaining marker: If you see that at the beginning of the takeoff roll indicating you're on a 3000+ foot runway instead of a 6000 f
129 Tvnewsguy08 : Info on some of the victims from Courier-Journal.com: Here is the latest information about some of the victims: Jeffrey Clay The plane’s pilot, Jeff
130 LUVRSW : It's possible the crashed fenced was CFR (crash fire rescue) crew getting to the plane, and not the plane itself.
131 Gh123 : I knew this guy.
132 777236ER : What annoys me is how some pathetic journalist feels the need to call grieving relatives on the day their son, husband, father and brother has died.
133 Atco : From what we know so far the Tower was manned by a single controller, not unusual at a fairly quiet airfield at a quiet time of day. This would invol
134 71Zulu : No not possible at all since the fence in question is directly off the end of the runway and is obvious that the plane went through it; look at the p
135 F9Animal : It does appear in the pic that the main exit is blocked by the tree. I wonder if the FA attempted to make it out? The service door is so darned small
136 RaginMav : That in itself would be a mistake for the crew, as "taxi to Runway 22" implys a 'full length' not an 'intersection' takeoff So it's not possible that
137 71Zulu : You are correct, that was a poor choice of words on my part. I guess I'll just say that I would think it highly unlikely that a fire or rescue truck
138 BR715-A1-30 : For once, I agree with you
139 Atco : Which is an assumption on your part. We do not know what taxi/takeoff instructions were given. The takeoff clearance may have given them the option o
140 Post contains images EA CO AS : I've said it before and I'll say it again - this just proves once again that they pulled the plug on the wrong brain-dead Schiavo.
141 CptSpeaking : Where I'm from, you have to be given a clearance for an intersection takeoff: "COM191 intersection ***, fly runway heading, cleared for takeoff runwa
142 Isitsafenow : After watching videos of the airport, noticed something that stood out on on the short runway at Lexington. No "piano Keys" on that runway. The newly
143 AirTranTUS : In my experience, these markers are usually not on runways of the type used mistakenly this morning. They are reserved for wider and longer runways.
144 MCOflyer : I recommend that we start part III. MCOflyer
145 Post contains links AirTran737 : Well on another note I would like to take a minute to honor a fellow AirTran co-worker and friend who was killed in this crash. CW Fortney was commuti
146 CPHGuard : I beleive there is a big chance, that this accident will be contributed to pilot error in the end. But there is almost always a number of factors, tha
147 WorldTraveler : There's another aspect of this accident that is troubling me. Word is that there was an AirTran co-pilot jumpseating in the cockpit. Why did he/she no
148 MCOflyer : I'm sure the FO can answer that if he gets better. Btw, if Part II is too long, i've started part III. MCOflyer
149 Freakfor747 : What is the state of the FO? and when will the black box info get released? may all involved in the accident rip.
150 Post contains links TedTAce : Ref: I Lost A Friend In The Comair Crash Today (by AirTran737 Aug 28 2006 in Non Aviation)
151 DeltaMIA : Any jumpseater would be in the back. There were 4 open seats for him/her to take. OH requires that when there is an open seat that the JSA takes it i
152 Post contains images Mikkel777 : That system of markings actually started after a 747 got approach light system throught the fuselage at the departure end at SFO, when take-off dista
153 Post contains links and images Vatveng : Just a side note... View Large View MediumPhoto © Paul Robbins This airliners.net photo is showing up in the media, I just saw it on NBC earlier,
154 DTWOPS : Can anyone come up with a recent photo of the Hold Short signage at Rwy 26? I am curious to see if it may be a contributing factor. I notice from the
155 Bakestar : any aerial photo's taken, maybe help to get a wider look at things? (e.g, where/when it hit the ground, skid marks, etc...)
156 ANCFlyer : I buy all my Duty Gear from Galls. In fact, I'm wearing a Galls Uniform right now. I'll have to call there tomorrow (Monday) and speak with my rep .
157 DashTrash : When you guys who keep asking how an experienced crew can make a mistake such as this fly a long day, followed by a short turn overnight, then another
158 F9Animal : Excellent point made. How many times have I made wrong turns, and had the chance to fix it? How many of us have screwed up due to being tired, and al
159 TrojanAE : If I remember correctly, according to the Notams, the runway end lighting was out as well as the MIRL (medium intensity runway lighting). If this was
160 APFPilot1985 : I'm glad that someone has finally said it. The crew rest rules for pilots are antiquated and are a weak link and need to be revised I can only hope t
161 Paulinbna : I took the picture and gave them permission to use it.
162 Checkraiser : I agree, the regs should be changed. But I think ALPA's voice would resonate better with the FAA on this issue than the general public.
163 Pilotaydin : um..no....don't post things like the only and logical in the same sentence... i notice you aren't air crew, as a F/O let me tell most of you posting
164 AlexPorter : moved to part 3 filler[Edited 2006-08-28 09:00:40]
165 Baron52ta : I don't know if it has been addressed in any other comments but in my experience there is a large white number painted at the end of each runway preci
166 ThirtyEcho : Anybody else want to ask why we still have that whiskey compass right in front of our nose? That thing doesn't lie unless you put a screwdrive right n
167 FutureFO : The crew was actually on a 28hour overnight. There was no minimum rest issues or Stand-up assigned to this trip. The airplane arrived late in the even
168 NIKV69 : This could be the understatment of the year.
169 Voodoo : Airport construction seems to have been only slightly mentioned above and apparently dismissed by the airport spokesperson in one post above. FWIW: I
170 Post contains links BNE : Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part III (by MCOflyer Aug 28 2006 in Civil Aviation) Time for part 3 and to lock this thread.
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