Af773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2505 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 2 hours ago) and read 26317 times:
I just heard that the plane crashed because it was on the wrong runway which is not for for airplanes like the CRJ 100. So the plane did not lift up high enough then crashed. I wish there were more survivors.
A346Dude From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1174 posts, RR: 9 Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 2 hours ago) and read 26156 times:
I'm not sure if anyone has suggested this, but here is some more speculation.
It seems possible that all the information the pilots had (NOTAMS, etc.) indicated that the runway lights on RWY26 were inoperative. Upon arriving at the threshold of RWY26, if the lights on that runway were actually on for some reason, the pilots could have concluded that they must be at RWY22 - they only runway they believed to have operating lights.
Does this seem plausible?
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
Someone in part II was saying that there was only one controller in the tower at that time. And the he/she had multiple tasks and babysitting the flight crew is not one.
Position and hold runway one three right landing traffic on runway two two left
Captaink From Grenada, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 5029 posts, RR: 15 Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 2 hours ago) and read 26103 times:
Quoting United767 (Reply 2): Why did the tower not recognize the aircraft was on the wrong runway?
I would imagine that with the one Air Traffic Controller in the tower at the time, with many other duties, even if he did realize that Comair 191 was on the wrong RNWy, things would have happened too fast for him to do anything. That is if he was paying any attention to him at all.
As someone mentioned ATC has other duties, and he cleared Comair to take off, he would assume he is on the correct RNWY so the next time he really would have to speak to him would be in a few moments after the flight is airbourne he is ready to give him instructions or pass him on to another centre.
United767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 356 posts, RR: 6 Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 2 hours ago) and read 26043 times:
Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 4): Someone in part II was saying that there was only one controller in the tower at that time. And the he/she had multiple tasks and babysitting the flight crew is not one.
I understand that, but is it not his/her responsibility to still keep an "eye" out to whats happening on the airfield?
I wish UA flew mainline to MYR, that way you wouldn't be stuck in a smelly Saturn for 12 hours.
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 1 hour ago) and read 25887 times:
From part II
Quoting Tvnewsguy08 (Reply 131): Gall sales representatives
Debbie Albert, a spokeswoman for Galls, a Lexington-based public safety equipment and apparel company, confirmed that three of its sale representatives were on the flight.
She would not release their names but said the employees were on their way to New Orleans on business.
“Our thoughts and prayers are with the families of these remarkable team members,” said company president Gary Christensen, in a statement. “The entire Galls community mourns their loss.”
I buy all my Duty Gear from Galls. In fact, I'm wearing a Galls Uniform right now. I'll have to call there tomorrow (Monday) and speak with my rep Kara Begley . . .
Jasond From Australia, joined Jul 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 1 hour ago) and read 25767 times:
First off my sincere condolencies to the families involved...
Reading what has been posted thus far (and from other sources) it appears there is no doubt that the departure runway was RWY 26. Looking at the airport plan (I sourced one from Rand-Macnally) for KLEX there are only 3 taxiways that lead to both 22 and 26. It doesn't seem reasonable that the either of the 2 southern most ones were taken but more likely the most northern one. I apologise for not knowing their designations. That being the case then to get to 22 you must cross the end of 26 first. The fact that they have turned onto 26 bears striking similarities to the SIA 747 accident in Tapei sometime ago where the crew used a parallel runway accidently that was closed for maintenance. Two questions remain:
1) What was the nature of the tower take-off clearance (22 or 26)? and
2) Assuming that the clearence was for 22 why did the crew turn onto 26?
I have no doubt the subsequent investigation will focus on those two questions. The speculation of the runway lights associated with 26 are a direct function of the answers to 2) one way or the other.
SLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 3818 posts, RR: 12 Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 1 hour ago) and read 25767 times:
I think it is really best for the NTSB and the FAA to make the determination on this runway mistake on how much of it was pilot error vs. ATC error. I'm confident they will be able to arrive at some conclusions very quickly in this accident since the black boxes have been recovered, and there is good evidence to show that the wrong runway was utilized in this instance. Some questions that NTSB/FAA investigating officials should ask:
1- What was the position on taxiway A or A-5 when clearance for departure was given from the tower?
2-Does the tower have the best visibility of the taxiway given the terminal could be blocking the view of the two taxiways that are in question?
3-How familiar was the captain and 1st officer with procedures and taxiways of the Blue Grass (LEX) airport?
4-Could anything have been done to mitigate this mistake?
5-What can be done procedurally at this airport to prevent a future fatal error such as this.
Wrong runway mistakes by pilots and ATC personnel are not uncommon at many airports around the USA. In the past SLC has not been immune to such either. In the past planes assigned to advance over to the far eastern runway (35/17) over by the Air Guard Base and General Aviation (okay for 737s, 757s and even wide-bodies on cool days at 9600') have made the mistake of taking off on runway 32/14, manageable for a 737, but questionable for a 757 being only 4900.' This especially happened more frequently than many folks realized prior to the opening of runway 34L/16R in 1995. Runways 32 and 35 are at a very close start point much like 22 and 26 at LEX: http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0607/00365AD.PDF
Notice how easy it would be and how dangerous such a take-off on a runway that is designed for General Aviation could be. An accident here could involve an a/c hitting one of the concourses, A or B.
[Edited 2006-08-28 07:14:58]
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
Mikey711MN From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1377 posts, RR: 10 Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 1 hour ago) and read 25754 times:
Quoting A346Dude (Reply 3): It seems possible that all the information the pilots had (NOTAMS, etc.) indicated that the runway lights on RWY26 were inoperative. Upon arriving at the threshold of RWY26, if the lights on that runway were actually on for some reason, the pilots could have concluded that they must be at RWY22 - they only runway they believed to have operating lights.
Does this seem plausible?
That's what I've been thinking all day. That is, I realize what the NOTAMS read, as someone posted it directly in Part I of this thread, but just because something was to be out-of-service doesn't mean that it actually was at the time. I'm sure the investigation will cover this.
To me, at this early stage based on info that's publicly available, that seems to be the most logical explanation towards why the pilot took off.
SKGSJULAX From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 60 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 1 hour ago) and read 25682 times:
From the Palm Beach Post, earlier today...
"Copilot sole survivor of Kentucky crash
By Tania Valdemoro
Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
Monday, August 28, 2006
James Polehinke, 44, of Margate, the copilot and sole survivor of Sunday's Comair Flight 5191 crash in Lexington, Ky., kept to himself, neighbors said.
No one answered the door at his tan home Sunday afternoon.
At least half a dozen people who were interviewed said they did not know much about the 6-foot-2 pilot who for Delta Airlines. Flight records show he received an airline transport pilot certificate in November 2005.
David Norris, who lives next door, said Polehinke had three or four small dogs. Norris also believes he was divorced from his wife, Ida. Florida records do not show the couple had divorced.
Ida Askew, 51, was arrested and charged with attempted murder in July 1999 after she shot Polehinke in the stomach with a handgun while the couple was arguing, police records show. Askew did not return calls Sunday.
Most of the time, neighbors saw Polehinke drive off in his red Mazda Miata. Once in a while, they would see him working in his yard, they said. They rejoiced that he survived the crash, which authorities said claimed the lives of 49 people. "I'm happy to hear he's alive," said Kareem Bandele, who lives across the street from Polehinke's home.
===============================================
Extraordinary that the media, in the name of "informing the public" would actually walk up to the person's house and ring the doorbell! But even more extraordinary, if true, that the guy had already survived a shot in the gut!!!
BHMNONREV From Iraq, joined Aug 2003, 1205 posts, RR: 5 Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 1 hour ago) and read 25682 times:
Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 10): That is, I realize what the NOTAMS read, as someone posted it directly in Part I of this thread, but just because something was to be out-of-service doesn't mean that it actually was at the time. I'm sure the investigation will cover this.
I had read an earlier report on CNN or MSNBC (don't recall which) that Runway 26 does NOT have lights, and is a day only runway. Now how accurate that is, who knows...
Mikey711MN From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1377 posts, RR: 10 Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months ago) and read 25604 times:
Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 12): I had read an earlier report on CNN or MSNBC (don't recall which) that Runway 26 does NOT have lights, and is a day only runway. Now how accurate that is, who knows...
I read/heard that too in some of the initial reports.
However, in the afore-mentioned Part I of the thread, there was discussion of MIRL ("medium intensity runway lights" or something to that effect) actually in-place on 8-26 but that they were out-of-service according to the NOTAMS.
If anyone would care to re-post this info and/or confirm the information, i.e. that 8-26 indeed has lights but were reportedly out-of-service, that would be helpful.
FlyboySMF2GFK From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 193 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months ago) and read 25506 times:
To clear up (or perhaps muddle) the lighting situation:
I've seen light standards at a lot of fields that just aren't being used for whatever reason.
If you check Google Earth's overhead, 8/26 certainly has runway light standards (they appear as white dots every 200 feet on either side of the runway).
Checking the photo taken today at the departure end of 26, there are indeed end lights, so lighting equipment exists.
My only A/FD (SE) expired late last year, but it listed MIRL (indefinitely OTS) for 8/26. There are no current notams for OTS MIRL at LEX, however, there is a NOTAM for the closure of 8/26 (as well as a TFR for recovery and investigation). The MIRL is listed as indefinitely OTS on Airnav's site as well.
Dogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months ago) and read 25475 times:
Quoting United767 (Reply 2): Why did the tower not recognize the aircraft was on the wrong runway?
Well, if it was bad weather then I doubt the Tower could see the runway. Also does the airport even have Ground Radar? If not then there was probably no chance that the tower even noticed.
There aren't many ASDE (ground movement) radars installed at US airports relative to the gigantic number of controlled fields we have. Lexington is hardly O'Hare - check out the airport diagram and you'll see there's really no need for it.
Thanks! Well all I can think now is that the Air Traffic Controller had no part in the incident because if he/she was unable to see either of the runways then he/she would not know where the aircraft was.
If visiblity was so low I do not blame the pilots too much as they were more than likely busy with take-off and climb-out checklists that they would have just taxiied onto the runway and departed. Without checking the heading.
Just my views but most people must be able to see where I am coming from.
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 25302 times:
Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 16): Well, if it was bad weather then I doubt the Tower could see the runway
I'm not so sure. Having flown in/out of LEX numerous times, the tower is rather close (within 1/4 mile - or less) of the end of RWY 26. There no obscuration between the tower and the ends of 26 or 22, no trees, no buildings, nothing.
Look at this photo - the 'white dot' in the bottom left quadrant of the photo is general location of the tower. And you can clearly see the ends of 26 and 22 in the photo. There is direct line of sight. With the limited number of a/c movements this morning - in other words - there was only one a/c moving on Alpha taxiway at the time, that's the Comair Flight, the tower had a decent view, and only one a/c to deal with at that moment.
Atco From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 277 posts, RR: 30 Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 25269 times:
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19): and only one a/c to deal with at that moment
How do you know that?
Can you provide me with a source that is verifiable?
Do you know the other tasks controllers perform in their job?
What insight do you have into what the Tower controller's workload was at that moment?
All the news channels broadcasted that this morning . . . it was said that two flights had departed ahead of the Delta flight. And there was no other traffic inbound or outbound, other than the Delta flight.
Of course - it WAS the media reporting it.
Quoting Atco (Reply 20): Can you provide me with a source that is verifiable?
Do you know the other tasks controllers perform in their job?
What insight do you have into what the Tower controller's workload was at that moment?
Easy killer, don't bark at me. I'm not pointing any fingers. I'm simply answering a question about the visibility between the tower the ends of the 26 and 22 . . .
But just in case you were mildly curious - yes, I know what tasks controllers perform. I wouldn't want their job. Now, that said: It's LEX. It's not like JFK or ORD or YVR . . .
Tell me, since we're comparing notes . . . have you ever been to LEX? Do you KNOW the layout of the airport from memory? I have and I do. Thanks for playing.
Pilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2491 posts, RR: 52 Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 25187 times:
Quoting United767 (Reply 2): Why did the tower not recognize the aircraft was on the wrong runway?
simple...if it's dark AND....
the tower isn't as high as the helicopter or google earth, so you are probably saying that after seeing the helicopter at 2000 feet and seeing the airport clearly....
if you go up to a tower, you'll see how hard it is to distinguish between the angles of ruinways 22 and 26 they are only 30 something apart....
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
AlexPorter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 25173 times:
Can anyone prove whether it was actually a CRJ-200 versus a CRJ-100? I'm kind of having a Wiki-battle with someone over what it is. If I understand properly, CRJ-100 production was replaced with CRJ-200 production in 1995, while this plane was built in 2001. Was there a long overlap? All of the A.net pictures say it's a CRJ-200, but airfleets.net says it's a CRJ-100. And the FAA website is conveniently ambiguous. Who's right?
Atco From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 277 posts, RR: 30 Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 25122 times:
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21): I'm simply answering a question about the visibility between the tower the ends of the 26 and 22 . . .
Tell me how this comment then:
"With the limited number of a/c movements this morning - in other words - there was only one a/c moving on Alpha taxiway at the time, that's the Comair Flight, the tower had a decent view, and only one a/c to deal with at that moment."
Fits in with the above statement?
How does discussing aircraft movements relate to visibility?
If you are not "pointing fingers", what relevance does the comment about 1 a/c have?
No I have never been to LEX, but I am a licensed Air Traffic Controller who has worked in London, UK and Toronto, Canada.
Its comments like that which lead people to think all the controller was doing was sitting there staring out of the window, and it is incomprehensible that they could let this happen.
We don't know what was going on at the time, it may well be that the only thing the Tower controller was doing was working the Comair flight, it may also be the case that he/she was recieving inbound estimates, obtaining departure release, checking on flow control, doing the weather forecast for the ATIS, providing an Approach control service, fixing the flight strip printer because the paper jammed, there are a whole host of things that may have occured in the VCR at the time.
ATC is not as simplistic as staring trans-fixed at every aircraft, there are a multitude of other tasks and jobs that need to be done.
Based on the fact that takeoff clearance was given for RW22 and readback correctly by the crew, it is reasonable the controller attended to his next task if that was the case.
Any controller I have ever worked with would step in without any hesitation if they saw something occuring which was dangerous to an aircraft, if the controller working this flight had been in a position to stop the takeoff happening I am sure he would have done.
Thanks for playing what exactly?
AirTeamImages
25 ANCFlyer: I read your profile, thanks . . . nasty habit I have before responding to most people . . . get a feel for the terrain so to speak. Dogfighters comme
26 CV990: Hi! If with all the investigation that is going to be donne by both FAA and NTSB they confirm that infact the COMAIR CRJ200 left from the wrong runway
28 Cltguy: Is the CRJ-100 equiped with a compass that the pilot could glance at before taking off to make sure they are on the right runway? Also is it standard
29 Baron52ta: REPOST I don't know if it has been addressed in any other comments but in my experience there is a large white number painted at the end of each runwa
31 A3xx900: How can TWO people in the cockpit (two experienced pilots) not see the HUGE numbers on the runway threshold that say "26" and not "22"? Only one pilot
32 MEA-707: Quote from the AirDisaster link: Delta Chief Executive Officer Gerald Grinstein issued a statement expressing condolences for those involved. "We at
33 Sevenair: Perhaps the confusion could have been cause by the fact that the turn out on to 26 and 22 are a pretty similar angle to each other could have led the
34 ANCFlyer: no, you're not the only one. I noted this morning that on Comair's website, almost immediately there was a number to call for information. On Delta's
35 Aleksandar: No, you're not the only one, but it is not only the case of Delta and Comair, but more of a major issue between big players and regional airlines who
36 VEEREF: In a nutshell, yes. A simple glance at a compass or HSI goes a long way in confirming proper runway alignment. Seasoned pilots don't just line up and
37 Legacy135: Not see the numbers is only one part of the story. It goes on, as any commercial aircraft has at least 3 different heading systems (2 driven either b
38 Aleksandar: Bu, can the terms of that relationships change? So far, it seems to me that regional carriers are ready to except such rules as long as they can empl
39 Skaggs: I am VERY interested in the outcome of the toxicology reports. 0600 on a Sunday morning....
40 NIKV69: I think we are past that point, the plane did depart the wrong runway. Another understatement, just need to hear what the controller cleared them for
41 ANCFlyer: This accident could have happened to one of the "big boys" just as easily IMO. I would suggest the change (in this case) will come with signage at LE
42 Aleksandar: Exactly. Yes, this is a strange accident indeed. It would be the best to wait for NTSB report. Yes, but such blows hurt the most and this one can fin
43 David L: Isn't that just standard practice? No need to read anything into it.
44 DeC: Airdisaster.com has a very good, self-explaining photo....just see the end of the runway and draw an imaginative straight line to the crash site, the
45 Goboeing: If you're implying they were hungover: their layover was likely to have been so short there would not have time to take a sip of alcohol on it even i
46 DTW757: Two other flights departed moments before the Comair flight. A SkyWest CRJ at 6:02am and an American Eagle ERJ at 6:04 am I found an article on Fligh
47 71Zulu: The NTSB seemed to indicate at yesterday's news conference that they were cleared for 22 but wouldn't say any more about it. Several reporters tried
48 CPHGuard: I remember several occasions, where airliners have taken off from taxiways. This should be even more unexplainable, as taxiways are marked with yello
49 ANCFlyer: ANC, China Airlines FLight 011, an A340. Left impressions of the gear in the snow at the end of the taxiway . . . would have been an ugly crash into
50 Canadianpylon: "Blue Grass Airport had been closed to flights the previous weekend for runway repaving but reopened Aug. 20." Is it possible that the runways are mi
51 Bennett123: An interesting take on those who say that the A340 has poor TO performance
52 DTW757: I'm pretty sure it would be illegal to open a runway without the proper markings.
53 AvConsultant: Controllers have multiple responsibilities; some posters seem to think the controllers are like aircraft spotters. The controller probably gave the c
54 Greggerm: Not entirely... As AvConsultant said right above me, it is ATC's job to insure things flow smoothly and that no aircraft attempt to occupy the same s
55 ANCFlyer: Nope, look at the news footage . . . the repaved RWY22 is clearly marked. The un-refurbished runway is clearly distinguishable.
56 AvConsultant: Runway 22 was repaved. not the taxiway nor runway 26 (except the intersecting portion). There are large red signs with white lettering identifying ru
57 DMAJ7TH: as opposed to what? having a bunch of aviation enthusiasts on an aviation blog informally try and speculate on what they think happened? whats wrong
58 SLCUT2777: Do we know all the facts? Do we have all of the evidence in front of us? That is why I don't want to establish a greater liability to the ATC control
59 Bistro1200: With two flights in the air and 191 ready for takeoff, the situation is consistent with a "heightened" workload, especially if he's alone. He was prob
60 DMAJ7TH: fully agree. i have the up-most respect for controllers. they have saved my butt once or twice in the past, not because they were acting as babysitte
61 Cedarjet: Yes, but there's more to it than that: And more yet: the Singapore Airlines 747 that crashed on takeoff at Taipei after hitting construction equipmen
62 DTW757: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14552288 If you watch the video in this report, the correspondant states that there was not suppose to be lighting on the
64 Cedarjet: I should add that while reluctantly agreeing with the predicted verdict of pilot error, it's also worth noting that take off was at 6am, which meant w
65 71Zulu: Comair pilots on another board have said they were NOT on a CDO and may have actually had 28 hours off duty in LEX as although the aircraft arrived S
66 RL757PVD: A couple points/ theorys on the MIRL/ Runway Lighting issue.... 1) Ive seen it where an airport will Notam something out of service if something is le
67 MCOflyer: Singapore 006 crash in Taiwan on october 31,2000 MCOflyer
68 DeltaDC9: I am sorry, I have not had the opportunity to read all three threads on this, but as I live right near the crash site, I thought I might be able to r
69 DMAJ7TH: but, in my humble opinion sir, thats exactly what message boards on websites such as these are for. as i stated in my initial post yesterday, a.net i
70 ANCFlyer: I think you're confused . . . . either on the runways or the lighting. Rwy22 at LEX is STILL 150 feet wide. Rwy26 at LEX was NEVER 150 feet wide, was
71 NIKV69: Mary Schiavo was just on MSNBC, seems a similar incident happened but the ATC caught it in time.
72 DMAJ7TH: i've seen this too. a good example is a glide slope being notamed out of service, yet while flying the approach itself, the glide slope indications s
73 RL757PVD: Look at the pictures, it (Runway 8-26) clearly was 150' wide at one point, it is now marked and published at 75' wide with the standard yellow chevro
74 DeltaDC9: Correct, 747s land here quite often, as do other very large planes.
75 DC6BDreaming: First, R.I.P. to all the souls aboard Comair Flight 5191. Too bad they were a victim of human error both on the part of the pilots AND the tower contr
76 OptionsCLE: " target=_blank>http://www.airnav.com/airport/KLEX If you look at the photos of the airport you'll notice that runway 26 has pavement extending beyond
77 Doug_Or: Yes, but if you look at te pics of 26 you'll notice two tihngs. First its a light concrete with white numbers, second, as I mentioned in the first th
78 DTW757: Yes I posted an article about this up in reply 46
79 Doug_Or: Not relevant and he is also not correct.
80 LPLAspotter: I'm not a pilot, but that was my initial question to myself. If they were on the wrong runway wouldn't a simple comparison to the heading be close to
81 DMAJ7TH: i think, even more important than verifying your heading bug with the departure runway, is both pilots studying the taxi diagram intently before even
82 DeltaDC9: It is very much so correct, I live in Lexington near the airport. If you have no facts, maybe you should simply ask! As for relevance, we were discus
83 Doug_Or: Not sure about OH, but its not on ours. After a short taxi out the time right before applying takeoffpower can be one of the highest workload periods
84 RL757PVD: If you look at the Runway 8 threshold picture in Thread II for the crash, you will notice the threshold lighting for Runway 8 is clearly leftover from
85 DeltaDC9: We cant be sure of that, as they were working on the runways and lghting all summer and they are still wrapping it up. Also, the short runway is dayt
86 RL757PVD: Im hoping someone form there can confirm it, but the picture in thread II clearly shows the Rwy 8 threshold markings at the 150' standard. This light
87 Doug_Or: I'll stand by my statment, but not my wording. I never meant to say that 747s haven't been to LEX, but you said "correct" to ANCflyer. ANCflyer was w
88 RL757PVD: Thats a whole seperate argument, and im sure someone will ask why they were on! Mny times ATC will just turn all the lights on. Granted the pilot is
89 Cyberflyer: I have been called a rabble rouser and an A$$hole since my last post...thanks...you missed my point....there is nothing good that is going to come out
90 DeC: All valid points you made there mate, exactly what i was thinking the other day, especially your 2 last lines! Cheers and welcome to my respected use
91 Doug_Or: Nope. You missed the point. And by a rather large margin. Pilots don't wake up and decide to fly into mountains or takeoff from the wrong runway. We'
92 RL757PVD: Agreed, as someone who flies alot, many times on DL/Comair and RJ's im really hoping that this isnt blatant pilot error, for the sake of all pilots a
93 DeltaDC9: Here is the construction going on at LEX, notice lighting is mentioned on the runway in question: Runway Safety Area Project Phases The airport's Runw
94 NIKV69: How did we come to this conclusion? ATC is simply responsible for clearing AC to a runway, not making sure they go to the right one. Let's wait and s
95 DeC: Nobody said that the investigation should end here with a simple ‘pilot error-take off from wrong runway’ tag and you know pretty well that they
96 Gh123: Quite right! Check list, check list, check list, check list and trim!
97 DeltaDC9: The plane would have likely looked the same to him anyway because both runways start at the same general location. It was hazey and visibility was no
98 DC6BDreaming: Hmmm...a TOWER...a big tall structure with windows at the top, overlooking the airport tarmac and runways. If the ATC is simply responsible for clear
99 Gh123: I know that someone has added a picture of Dubai Air Wings 747sp. Last year at LEX, we had not only that SP but also Dubai Air Wings other 747-400 (e
100 Gilligan: As pointed above, they had 4/22 closed on the 20 and 21st to repaint the striping so they are evidently attempting to upgrade the airport. When they
101 Gh123: Maybe they should just close 8/26. I mean there's no real use for it. For example I have been flying in and out of KLEX for 2 years now (Cessna 182/17
102 Greggerm: What's painfully evident is your apparent lack of knowledge as to the roles and responsibilities of those involved! The tower's job - in fact, ATC's
103 DeltaDC9: What about crosswinds? Also, if they have to close the big runway( which they have all summer), what about the small planes that would need to divert
104 MeanGreen: The problem that I have with the guy that is saying pilots need to stop complaining about being tired and other jobs require just as much of a workloa
105 DMAJ7TH: i do agree with this. sorry for calling you a rabble rouser before - didnt know if you were serious about your earlier statement or not.
106 FlyboySMF2GFK: Google Earth clearly shows 150 feet width of pavement for 8/26, MIRL outboard of that. Edge markings are 75' width as per A/FD. Quick comment regardi
107 BOACVC10: with regard to markings on the RWY22, RWY26 and adjacent tarmac, I was puzzled to see through Google Earth a very unique 8-sided compass rose, almost
108 APFPilot1985: But yet you will jump on the flight crew without waiting?
109 FlyboySMF2GFK: I believe the two things you mention here are completely unrelated. The compass rose is for compass calibration, sometimes used as a VOR receiver che
110 Captjetblast: First, God bless their souls and bring relief to the families. Second, don't pilots know prior to departure the plane flight parameters and specs, i.e
111 RL757PVD: As stated before, while it is ultimately the pilots responsibility, as a frequent traveler, and for the sake of the aviation industry, im really hopi
112 CPHGuard: I dont know how it is in the US, but here in Denmark taxiway centerline lights are definately GREEN. I agree however that on a taxiway, the taxiway e
113 Gh123: They only closed 22/4 for a weekend (NOT ALL SUMMER). They hired just about every Asphalt company in central Kentucky to complete the re-surfacing of
114 Tnreynolds: I'm sure that the pilots were well aware of the minimum runway length for the CRJ-100, they certainly shouldn't be behind the yoke if not! I'd say th
115 FlyboySMF2GFK: I'm with you there, I'm saying that only about 40 or so out of the 30,000 or so of our airports actually have taxiway centerline lighting, which is,
116 Senorcarnival: Not necessarily. If he suffered brain damage, there is a chance he won't remember much and there's also a chance he may not remember anything at all.
118 Jonno: Does anybody know what injuries the FO sustained? And it just might be possible that he has no memory of the accident or even brain damage?
119 Litz: I posted a reply in thread II on this ... looking at comair's fleetlists, they were buying CRJ100s from 1995 to 1999, and CRJ200s from late 2000 onwa
120 F9Animal: Look at the runway from google. The runway numbers are very light, and could easily be missed. You are absolutely correct. But, obviously the flight
121 Senorcarnival: They haven't released his condition at the request of his family. They only said he's on life support and had surgery yesterday.
122 CPHGuard: Then we agree Here in Denmark its just the other way around. The taxiways have centerlights and no edge lights. Regards Thomas
123 Litz: I saw a report that said cracked pelvis, and internal bleeding. No mention if he was concious or unconcious when rescued from the cockpit. I would pr
124 RobertS975: More of the truth will be revealed by the CVR and the ATC tapes rather than the memory of the FO. No ground radar except at major airfields, and it d
125 BR715-A1-30: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14545437/ A partial list of the victims of this horrible accident.
126 Onetogo: How could the pilots have departed 26 if the lights were NOT on? I'm told it was dark out at the time. If the runway lights were not on, how could one
127 DTW757: I had heard that when they got to the crash site the rescuers saw movement in the cockpit so he may have been conscious.
128 Tnreynolds: According to: http://www.lex18.com/Global/story.asp?S=5331035 It seems there was some lighting. I can't see how they would have screamed down an unli
129 Gilligan: This is true and there are conflicting published reports: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060828/ts_afp/usplanecrash_060828075253 The crew also had tak
130 Vref5: Hi, Litz, Bombardier says it's a -100. http://www.bombardier.com then click on English, then click on the press release concerning the crash.
131 FlyboySMF2GFK: Well, it was probably twilight for one, and the taxi/landing lights on a CRJ are more than enough to find a taxiway lead-line to the wrong runway.
132 Vref5: It's possible... but then again, semi-conscious or unconscious people do move, especially when they're in pain. The body responds; brain does not hav
133 Avi8tir: Just a thought on the whole CRJ-100 vs CRJ-200 argument. If I recall correctly, arent all of Comair's -100 series equipped with only 40 seats - starti
134 Crogalski: I'm not sure if anyone has posted this yet.. but here's a list of some of the victims.. http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/...=/20060828/NEWS0104/608
135 CVG72: Hey guys, Here in the CVG area the local news carries all of the press conferences, and at the latest one (12:10 PM EST), they said that over the next
136 Vref5: I don't personally know the full extent of his injuries, other than it being extremely grave with life or recovery still not a sure thing at this tim
137 JetBlue: What I'm wondering is if they were on 26, which appears to be relatively unlit, how they didn't see the lights of Runway 22 when they crossed them. Ai
138 Spacecadet: This really is not that difficult of a question to resolve: http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/a...reliminary_data/media/B_0828_N.txt I would think t
139 Gh123: Basically yes. There is a white strobe at the threshold of 22 and has a PAPI system on the left also. Although during the day you might often 'think
140 FlyboySMF2GFK: I think the CL lights on 4/22 are NOTAM'ed OTS due to the recent repaving.
141 Doug_Or: While taking off you're really not looking at the runway edge lighting (the only lighting at most airports). You're ususaly looking at the centerline
142 Gh123: Runway 26 @ KLEX - doesn't look like there is any centre line lighting anyway. What about the sides?
143 Gh123: This is a picture of another Delta CRJ departing KLEX on 22 last night. You can see the crash site in the background with the floodlights. Where runw
144 Lostmoon744: Sorry if this has been discussed prior (still new here learning the system). For pilots who fly the CRJ-100/200: (or anyone who knows) If the pilots e
145 FlyboySMF2GFK: No chance that a 3,500 foot runway in Lexington is going to have CL, but I definitely see edge lights there. They are obviously not on.
146 DTW757: That seems to be a big IF. Whether or not there is lights on 8/26 and IF they were on yesterday morning. I haven't heard that that question has
147 Avi8tir: I gave the link as an example. My thought was because of my own personal experience. In the last year I have flown at least 50 flights on Comair/ASA
148 Alessandro: Couldnt it be a technical solution using GPS onboard the plane? A warning system, this runway is too short for take-off?
149 Mrocktor: I think at this point it is certain that the aircraft attempted to take off on the wrong runway and that the main cause was human error. Whether the m
150 FlyboySMF2GFK: Methinks you'd have a lot of false flags with something like that. There are a lot of runways that diverge from the same starting point. No, the warn
151 Litz: This may still be in question - I've also seen media reports that the rescuer was burned trying to help passengers out after helping extricate the co
152 DeltaDC9: I did not mean to imply that it was closed all summer or only for the repaving. This repaving is part if a 5 year field safety improvement program, a
153 Alessandro: Sure no system is waterproof all together, but if the plane start to take-off and system could warn the pilots that something is fishy? A GPS system
154 Echofoxtrot: some of the metars of KLEX for Sunday morning: KLEX 271254Z 22007KT 7SM BKN050 BKN060 24/21 A3004 RMK AO2 SLP162 T02440206 KLEX 271154Z 22006KT 6SM HZ
155 Mikey711MN: I don't disagree with what you've read, but I disagree with the leap of logic that was written into the article... That is, if the lights "were all i
156 Litz: Okay, more news from the NTSB ... They've confirmed the runway lights on 26 were inoperative. (fair use clip from cnn) Boy this just gets more mysteri
157 Derik737: RAAS (Honeywell Runway Awareness and Advisory System) is available from Honeywell on Honeywell EGPWS equipped aircraft (it's an additional option wit
158 Litz: It's been mentioned in posts above that there were two comair crews, actually, in LEX ... the accident plane arrived with one set of crew on Saturday
159 FlyboySMF2GFK: Nothing in there that would raise a "contributing factor" flag to me. To be honest with you, I'd rather not have to worry about one more thing to pro
160 Gh123: Agreed. Hopefully the cockpit conversation will fill in the missing piece of the puzzle. Well at least to some extent.
161 FlyboySMF2GFK: Now there's a viable solution. Kinda like the satellite nav systems in cars nowadays: "Turn left on State Route 138."
162 DTW757: Yeah I was thinking the same thing but then I read farther in the article. "We are seeking to determine exactly what the status of those lights are,
163 KYAir: Had this flight crew flown into LEX in the past? In other words, where they "regulars"? I've flown through LEX many times, more than any other airport
164 Pawsleykat: I know that the facts are pointing to Pilot error, not knowing the right runway and stuff, but in this day and age I really can't see it possible that
165 Bonjourmoi44: Here is a picture of a 100, clearly showing the same number of rows as the 200. So 50 passengers in the 100 can be reasonable. http://www.airliners.ne
166 DTW757: I was thinking about this too. As a pilot myself I always look where we are and where we are taking off and landing. Then I thought about this situat
167 FlyboySMF2GFK: Actually, all those fancy doodads means a lot more stuff for the crew to be focused on, unfortunately. Nothing can beat a good set of mk 1's that, if
168 Alessandro: Flyboy says> To be honest with you, I'd rather not have to worry about one more thing to program before taxiing out. I wouldn't want to have my head d
169 Vref5: That's just stock NTSB boilerplate, meaning 'We're leaving no stone unturned; we're not going to make premature assumptions'. Stuff like that. That's
170 Pawsleykat: thanks for telling us that, I never knew that before. JG
171 DeltaDC9: What I posted was from a local radio interview of another Comair pilot I heard at lunch, they were "on duty" the whole time, I think it was called "s
172 NIKV69: True but the controller is not resposible for any pilot's mistakes, sure it's great if he did and one instance at that same airport he did. When you
173 DeltaDC9: True, but apparantly the numbers painted on the runway were behind him. Not that this explains anything. The construction and the reconfigurqation of
174 Hmmmm...: This accident seem to have a cause that is becoming increasingly bizarre. Not only did they choose the wrong runway, not only did they ignore the towe
175 KYAir: Most travelers into LEX, or anywhere for that matter, are not aware of how many runways there are or how long each is - just like so many things we d
176 Micstatic: While I agree the controller isn't at fault, it should have been noticed that the plane lined up wrong. I'm sure it is possible that all of the tower
177 VEEREF: Sure. I'll just quit and go work at Wal Mart. But guess what? Someone else will take my place and be just as fatigued as I am. How does that help mak
178 DeltaDC9: Think of it as a "V" and they took the wrong leg of the V There was only one controller, and this was at least the 3rd takeoff. If there was one more
179 FlyboySMF2GFK: You said something about GPS being used as a taxi aid, of which I was referring to when I said no thanks. As far as a warning system for pilots on a
180 SKGSJULAX: No contest... Except that all accidents are, in a way, a series of incidents and their combination might appear bizarre though each incident by itsel
181 2H4: Of course, the only accidents that aren't a result of human error are those resulting from terrorism or from a person/animal entering the aircraft's
182 Ultrapig: It sounds as though someone made a mistake-as opposed to there being a failure of equipment-but we don't klnow. If someone did make a mistake its some
183 Alessandro: Flyboy says> You said something about GPS being used as a taxi aid, of which I was referring to when I said no thanks. As far as a warning system for
184 FlyboySMF2GFK: It's important to make a distinction in what the crew chose to do, and what they accidentally did. I don't think it was a conscious choice to take of
185 DAYflyer: Thats what I want to know. I think when is all is said and done there will be a lot of contributing factors to this unfortunate tragedy.
186 Gyojoo: So Pilot did choose a wrong runway to take off from. But thing that make me worry is that none of the pax survived, and only co-pilot was pulled out f
187 Cyberflyer: Remember the 10 ft. Wal-Mart rule and good luck in your new career. I'll take my chances with your replacement who likely isn't as angry nor as bitte
188 Avi8tir: there is nothing dimensionally different between the -100 with 40 seats & -200 with 50. there is simply coat closets that take up the first 2 rows in
189 Echofoxtrot: I was wondering the same thing...I think if I knew we were going down the wrong runway, I would've shouted. you never know, the flight crew may hear
190 Lostmoon744: So, can anyone shed some light regarding the annunciation on the ND if in fact RWY 22 was entered into the FMC, would one be able to see proper alignm
191 APFPilot1985: It is not angry or bitter when you point out a safety issue that had been complained about for years by ALPA and others (even former FAA investigator
192 YYZSaabGuy: Not to be pedantic or competitive about it, 2H4, but believe we should also, unfortunately, add WX to the list (hard to attribute microbursts, etc. t
193 Mika: Do we actually know for sure that rwy 26 wasn't for sure lit up? I remember someone speculating about this earlier, that all the information that the
194 Gh123: I was also thinking the same. I fly light aircraft out of LEX myself and fly commercial frequently aswell. I always pay attention to where we go and
195 2H4: Interesting points. I would consider wx a grey area....while much of it remains a phenomenon, it could be argued that the decision to continue into a
196 BA84: The LEX airport diagram is interesting: http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0607/00697AD.PDF There are two notations: CAUTION: BE ALERT TO RUNWAY CROSSING C
197 Echofoxtrot: I've thought about this even before this incident (but it was in the context of...what if I'm a passenger on a jet about to take off and I notice tha
198 DTW757: I don't think I'd yell "bomb" but if I was 100% certain of myself I would try to get them to stop the plane somehow I think. Perhaps jump up and yell
199 FlyboySMF2GFK: Foolish, indeed, we'd all look if we were to make a scene like that and it turned out the pilot was taxiing on the short runway and had to use breaka
200 APFPilot1985: 99% of airport diagrams have that notation. Many places if you don't follow it tower will require you to read it back until you do. For example: Towe
201 SKGSJULAX: By comparing the AirNav map side to side with the satellite picture provided by CNN.com it appears that the configuration of the airport is different
202 RL757PVD: Sadly I just looked over the LEX master plan (completed in 2002) and most alternatives aim to separate and eliminate that runway interestction, both f
203 Gh123: I removed the Question because it is off topic[Edited 2006-08-28 21:20:08]
204 YYZSaabGuy: Good point, 2H4, and I'll concede on mech. From the perspective of weather issues, though, I was thinking back 30+ (??) years ago when phenomena like
205 United787: Questions regarding the ATC involvement: 1. When does ATC give clearance for takeoff in a situation like this? Is it when they reach the runway but be
206 KarlB737: With all the reams of information floating around from the media, airport officials, pilots, A-Netters, etc., I seem to remember someone stating that
207 VEEREF: But he'll be just as tired and unsafe as I would be. But as long as you have your $99 round trip ticket, right? Not angry or bitter, just have the ba
208 2H4: Excellent point. I suppose, then, an additional factor not attributable to human error would be weather factors that are unknown and/or not fully und
210 Gh123: A couple of questions: 1) What kind of speed would the plane have been going at the end of the 26? 2) What is the rotate speed of the CRJ-100? Judging
211 SKGSJULAX: How big is the drop-off at the end of Runway 26? From the chart it looks like at least 30 feet... Is there a ridge? Looks like it from the various pi
212 N844AA: Can I suggest that we move to Part IV of this thread? This one seems to be becoming slow to load.
213 Gh123: no drop off on 26. at the start of runway 22 there is a wall. you can see the ridge though where the wheel marks are and where the plane must have ha
214 BOACVC10: I found a PDF file showing the taxiway/runway layout of KLEX Airport Diagram Lexington/Blue Grass (LEX) and a date code on the diagram may indicate it
215 DeltaDC9: Yes, the taxiways and access roads are all part of the big 4 phase project being worked on. It is not just a resurfacing project.
216 Ikramerica: I am hearing this a lot and it looks to be the "scapegoat" argument that will please certain members of A.net. It's as if people want to make the arg
217 DeltaDC9: That was NOT my intention. I would think that being on duty and having time for a nap would make things better, not worse. I was just stating the tim
218 A346Dude: I'm not convinced. How any pilot could take off from an unlit runway at night is inconceivable. At the very least they would call the tower to inquir
219 DTW757: You dont think they left the terminal and taxiied on taxiway Alpha to rwy 26 and turned left for departure instead of crossing 26 and using Alpha7 to
220 Gh123: just in: www.kentucky.com Witness to crash describes what he saw By Ryan Alessi HERALD-LEADER STAFF WRITER As Comair Flight 5191 reached the end of Bl
221 Spacecadet: CNN right now has what seems like a horribly mis-headlined story that says "Short runway lights were out", but then contains this quote that complete
222 DeltaDC9: As I said above, after the changes to the taxiway, the painted number would have been behind the plane when the entered the runway. That is what they
223 CptSpeaking: Towers are built so the controllers can see the airfield. If they didn't need to see what was going on, why not stick them in a building like the TRA
224 Axio: I have one question: Is the second runway at LEX necessary? If the runway layout is the complicating factor, and I apologize if this sounds like a kne
225 RL757PVD: I wouldnt be suprised if the terminal secuity cameras caught a part or all of the accident.
226 RobertS975: No way there are 30,000 airports in the USA, not even 10,000 if you count private turf strips. And airports with scheduled commercial service- about
228 Litz: You know ... I've seen this mentioned several times, and it just dawned on me ... As bad as it was, with them trying to use the shorter runway, how m
229 RIXrat: Litz, If I remember correctly, I read somewhere in this jumble or on a link that the crew had 28 hours of rest before resuming their morning flight.
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