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How Much Do You Trust Your Airliner Knowledge?  
User currently offlineBoeinglover24 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 305 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5062 times:

Many of us have been following the coverage about the crash of Comair 1591. And as I was watching the news and reading the threads here on a.net it got me thinking, What if anyone of us in here is aboard a plane in a similar situation at an airport you're more than familiar with.

You are pretty sure that the aircraft you're aboard is lined up in what you think is a runway that is too short for it to takeoff safely having read the runway and taxi signs and knowing the dimensions and lighting and the surroundings of each. And the pilot said something along the lines that we're cleared for takeoff or something that you know for a fact that he is going to use that runway for takeoff not to taxi to another one and doing it soon. Do you trust your airliner knowledge enough to sound off, act nuts etc. Risking arrest and fines or possible getting shot by an air marshall even if your're right. Note that in this situation you are not certain about anything considering the stress you are in. Do you trust yourself enough to think that you know better than a pilot who spent years learning to fly the thing...I know that this is only hypothetical, and we do not know for sure what happened on that flight and it is extremely rare for it to happen again..

I just want to know what everyone think they will do...Because I don't think I have enough guts to do anything and considering how fast everything's happening I really don't have enough time to think the situation through.....


Uhhh What?
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLevent From France, joined Sep 2004, 1718 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5032 times:

Well, it's always hard to tell what you would do if you find yourself in such a situation, but putting emotions etc. aside, logically if you're 200% sure that something is definitely wrong you should make yourself heard.

It might be too risky to jump out of your seat and start shouting (as this may get you an air marshall's bullet in your body...) but it might help to yell something from your seat. At least the f/a will be alerted and he/she might tell the pilot that there is a crazy passenger on board.

Better to be called crazy than a terrorist, or get in a crash, IMHO.


User currently offlineRamerinianAir From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5016 times:

Well, I always know where I am taking off from when I leave. When I am returning home, I'm not always familiar with the runways. If I knew that I was in an RJ with only 3,500' of runway. I would scream and knock on the cock-pit door! I am gonna die anyway, whether an Air Marshall or a crash does it who cares.
SR



W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21529 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5006 times:

From my experience, you would not get shot or need to go nuts. You just need to yell for the F/A.

I was on a CO MD80 right before they retired them, by the window exit, and was hearing really bizarre noises. I'd flown MD80s before and had not hear them. We were taxiing for takeoff, and I contacted the F/A. She assured me the strange noises were normal for this jet, and though she didn't like the sounds either, she was assured that it was not abnormal. Also, she assured me that she and her friends were damn happy the jets were leaving the fleet soon, but that's another story.

But she also said that if I insisted, they would return to the gate and I could get off. Not sure what would have happened after I got off, but the point is, they would turn around.

If you were to make the same type of request (refuse to fly) in the wrong runway situation, the F/A would absolutely contact the cockpit to let pilot know a passenger is not willing to fly and explain why. The pilots would then prepare to return to the terminal and likely notice you were right, and you would be a hero.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineReidYYZ From Kyrgyzstan, joined Sep 2005, 536 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4981 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
The pilots would then prepare to return to the terminal and likely notice you were right, and you would be a hero.

Unless you were an on staff crew member deadheading or identified yourself as crew from another company, I would suspect that you would be dumped off at the terminal, the a/c would pushback and the pax would be left thinking you were nuts. What crew would have the 'nads to admit to a plane load of pax that they just Effed up and that you were right. I think at that point everyone would want off having any faith shoot out the window. I could be wrong, just my 2cents.


User currently offlineVHXLR8 From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 500 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4928 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
She assured me the strange noises were normal for this jet, and though she didn't like the sounds either, she was assured that it was not abnormal.

So she told you that the noises were normal, and yet she didn't like the sound of them?? It's one or the other love; either a noise is normal, or you don't like the sound of it, at which point, you contact the captain (flight phase permitting). Sounds pretty unprofessional to me.

I always take passenger observations very seriously (as should all crew). There may be things that can only be heard from a particular seat, or only heard for a short time etc; and crew will/should always appreciate you speaking up about it.
You absolutely did the right thing in that case mate  Smile

It's the swiss cheese model people!!


User currently offlineJasond From Australia, joined Jul 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4892 times:

Having travelled a lot over the years I have become very familiar with airliners and their operations. Many of us on these forums come from a similar background and although some of us may not be professionals in the industry we understand what is normal and what is not. Couple that with experience flying out of familiar airports (plus some of us being flight simmers as well) and I would have thought that anything out of the ordinary would be immediately apparent. Thankfully I have not experienced anything out of the ordinary that I was concerned about but others around me weren't. I would like to think though that if I did see or hear something I would at least bring it to the attention to a member of the crew. The fine line here is how forceful you are doing that and at the end of the day we need to put our trust in the crew because 99.99999999% of the time they do get it right. As a side issue I can appreciate the original point of the topic but I am a little disappointed that the reference tp ComAir 1591 was the catalyst for it as it 'implies' (to me anyway) that the crew are already being judged. I will leave the final judgement to the investigators as should we all.

User currently offlineBoeinglover24 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 305 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4843 times:

Quoting Jasond (Reply 6):
I am a little disappointed that the reference to ComAir 1591 was the catalyst for it as it 'implies' (to me anyway) that the crew are already being judged. I will leave the final judgement to the investigators as should we all.

I really did not mean to judge the crew in any way. I just want to reiterate that I am just hypothesizing here. But the consensus is that the plane took off from the wrong runway all of the news outlets seem to agree with that. I'm not pointing fingers here and I totally agree with you that we should let the folks at NTSB do their jobs.

It's just that the situation got me thinking what if I was a passenger on the same situation, Will I have enough confidence to trust my instincts, act on a hunch? Most if not all the folks here in a.net have more knowledge in aviation than the general travelling public. And some are in the business and more know too much not to be. The purpose of why i started this thread is I am curious on what people here will do if they notice something they think is drastically wrong and needs immediate attention will you be able to yell and go crazy, you know attract a lot of attention in risk of embarassment, banishment, fines, or worse. And focusing on the flights' apparent situation, What if the aircraft you are on is in the wrong runway for takeoff and you kinda knowing it. I really don't think I have enough guts, or confidence and I will probably just sit there hoping for the best even though I am fairly sure something wrong is going on. I probably will question myself considering the crew and the controllers do this for a living and I'm just a regular plain ole enthusiast. I really am just curious on what people here will do because many of you know a lot more than me.



Uhhh What?
User currently offlineJasond From Australia, joined Jul 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4745 times:

Quoting Boeinglover24 (Reply 7):
The purpose of why i started this thread is I am curious on what people here will do if they notice something they think is drastically wrong and needs immediate attention will you be able to yell and go crazy, you know attract a lot of attention in risk of embarassment, banishment, fines, or worse.

Point taken. I do recall seeing a documentary about a 737 that lost part of its fuselage in Hawaii and a passenger remarking to the FA about a visible crack or skin separation near the front door. The FA's response in that case was everything was OK and there was nothing to worry about. In that case if I had seen that level of damage (and clearly it was judging by the footage), I would have refused to board and reported it.


User currently offlineAA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4707 times:

Whenever a FA or pax said they heard an unusual noise I always went back to checke it out (can't do that these days). You just never know when they are right about something being wrong.

I doubt there was any way for the pax to have known what runway they were on in LEX. The jumpseater in the back, however...  Sad TC



FL450, M.85
User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4699 times:

Quoting Jasond (Reply 8):
Point taken. I do recall seeing a documentary about a 737 that lost part of its fuselage in Hawaii and a passenger remarking to the FA about a visible crack or skin separation near the front door. The FA's response in that case was everything was OK and there was nothing to worry about. In that case if I had seen that level of damage (and clearly it was judging by the footage), I would have refused to board and reported it.

I'm not certain if the information above is correct. I remember the details of the Aloha accident fairly well, but maybe someone else on the forum can confirm the above comment. My recollection was that a passenger pointed out the tear in the fuselage in flight just about at the moment that decompression happened. From what I remember, there were no obvious visual signs of any cracks in the outer skin of the fuselage (clearly there would not have been any on the inside except as it was happening).

Quoting Boeinglover24 (Reply 7):
It's just that the situation got me thinking what if I was a passenger on the same situation, Will I have enough confidence to trust my instincts, act on a hunch?

It's a very interesting question, but I imagine everything happened very quickly on this flight. First, it was dark. If the pilot had been given clearance for takeoff prior to reaching the runway, the plane may have never stopped. It may have just turned from the taxiway and began its acceleration. If you were certain the plane was on the wrong runway, your first instinct would probably would have been, "no, I must be wrong .. this can't be right." Anytime something completely irrational happens, it takes the brain a second or two (or maybe a nanosecond) to try to come up with a logical, rational reason for the events.

I would imagine that even after your initial shock and if you were 100% sure about what was happening, by the time you starting yelling or getting out of your seat, there would have been no way to stop the events even if you had tried.


User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4687 times:

I actually remember a situation while landing at Washington National Airport a little over ten years ago. I worked for US Airways at the headquarters in Crystal City at the time and had landed at the airport dozens and dozens of times. As we were coming in on our 737-300 and lined up from the south for an arrival on Runway 1 (6869 feet), the plane suddenly veered to the right toward DC, then made a sharp left turn. I assumed we were going around, but the plane kept descending until it became clear we were landing on Runway 33 (5,204 feet). Now, mind you, I had never seen a jet land on this runway (only props); As far as I was concerned, it had never been done. And clearly the decision to land on this runway was made at the last minues as we had been lined up originally for Runway 1. All I could do was brace and think to myself, "Holy Sh*t, what the hell are we doing?" Two seconds later, we were on the ground and stopped. It happened so fast; it was over before I completely processed it.

User currently offlineJasond From Australia, joined Jul 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4636 times:

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 10):
I'm not certain if the information above is correct. I remember the details of the Aloha accident fairly well, but maybe someone else on the forum can confirm the above comment. My recollection was that a passenger pointed out the tear in the fuselage in flight just about at the moment that decompression happened.

I have just reviewed the Cineflex Air Crash Investigation documentary of it (I have an XVID of it on my PC here) and a passenger did notice something abnormal about the fuselage, specifically a 'separation' and discontinuity between two pieces of fuselage near the front door while boarding. Her name was mentioned on the documentary. She did not mention it to the FA.

[Edited 2006-08-28 14:51:15]

User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2601 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4568 times:
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If I observe ANYTHING that compromises saftey onboard an aircraft I speak-up.

If seconds counted---I would not hesitate to shout!



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4526 times:

Quoting Jasond (Reply 12):
I have just reviewed the Cineflex Air Crash Investigation documentary of it (I have an XVID of it on my PC here) and a passenger did notice something abnormal about the fuselage, specifically a 'separation' and discontinuity between two pieces of fuselage near the front door while boarding. Her name was mentioned on the documentary. She did not mention it to the FA.

Hey, thanks for the clarification.


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4985 posts, RR: 42
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4438 times:

While landing or taking off on the wrong runway is possible, it doesn't happen often. Let's face it though, it HAS happened, SQ in TPE, WA in MEX, and it appears to have happened in LEX.

But, it will only happen as a result of disorientation of the pilots. Both of them ... as one will usually speak up, if he/she sees an error in the other.

This being the case, do you think it is likely, that a passenger viewing through his/her porthole will have better spatial orientation than BOTH the pilots? I would hazard a guess that if current conditions caused the disorientation of the pilots, a passenger viewing through his/her window would have no better luck!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4417 times:

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 15):
WA in MEX,

To clarify, the OP means Western Air Lines (flight 2605) and not KLM Cityhopper.


User currently offlineBirdbrainz From United States of America, joined May 2005, 463 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4332 times:

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 10):
I would imagine that even after your initial shock and if you were 100% sure about what was happening, by the time you starting yelling or getting out of your seat, there would have been no way to stop the events even if you had tried.

In this case, there wouldn't be enough time for that. Say you start yelling. The attendent (there's only one) will try to calm you down. By then you're on your takeoff roll and in 5 more sec, it's too late. That said, if there's more than one F/A, one will surely call the cockpit, and you'll be ok.

About the only thing you could have done on the ComAir flight is run for a door and try open an emergency exit (or pound on the cockpit door) before the crew gets too far in to the takeoff. The door indicator in the cockpit will get their attention.

That said, you'd have to be ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY sure you're right.

If it were me, I don't think I would have been that alert at 6 am. Also, I would have assumed they're right, and wondered how a fully loaded RJ would have the thrust to take off on such a short runway. They are gutless after all.

One time I took off from SLC on a fully loaded one and all I could think about was how well I could see the Great Salt Lake and how it would be a really terrible time to lose an engine.



A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
User currently offlinePawsleykat From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1978 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4321 times:

Quoting Boeinglover24 (Thread starter):
Do you trust your airliner knowledge enough to sound off, act nuts etc. Risking arrest and fines or possible getting shot by an air marshall even if your're right.

I was thinking the exact same thing last night.
I think in that situation, I would try and sound off, I don't know if it would do anything if you did, but I would try my damnedest to get my point thru to the crew. It freaks me out tho, thinking about being in the rare situation that I would have to do it.

JG



First Class passengers are my favourites. They can't get any further forward without an ATPL.
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