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Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis  
User currently offlineAPFPilot1985 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 13236 times:

Just on MSNBC, went down into a lake with a successful deployment of the parachute.

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKFLLCFII From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3302 posts, RR: 30
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 13221 times:

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Thread starter):
with a successful deployment of the parachute.

Amen for CAPS. Hope everyone escaped without injury.



"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
User currently offlineUadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 13221 times:

just watched it on msnbc as well...it took off from eagle creek airport.can that a/c hold 5 pax?????extremely lucky it didnt take any houses with it.....


bus driver.......move that bus:)
User currently offlineTnreynolds From Australia, joined May 2006, 7 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 13150 times:

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):
Amen for CAPS.

Ditto there, certinaly seems like its needed with the number of crashes Cirrus seems to have.

Tried insuring a Cirrus latley?



There cannot be a crisis next week. My schedule is already full.
User currently offlineAPFPilot1985 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 13150 times:

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):
Amen for CAPS. Hope everyone escaped without injury.

they are reporting 5 for 5


User currently offlineBladeLWS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13090 times:

Thats extremely lucky it didn't land on a house. That pond is surrounded on all sides by houses and the pond looks only 100 yards across. As said above thank god for CAPS.

I'm listening to the news right now and they're calling the chute a flotation device, saying a parachute couldn't fit on that plane. Someone go and smack them upside the head...

[Edited 2006-08-28 17:40:40]

User currently offlineAPFPilot1985 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13029 times:

Quoting BladeLWS (Reply 5):
I'm listening to the news right now and they're calling the chute a flotation device, saying a parachute couldn't fit on that plane. Someone go and smack them upside the head...

They are saying a lot of stupid things.

Quoting Tnreynolds (Reply 3):
Ditto there, certinaly seems like its needed with the number of crashes Cirrus seems to have.

Tried insuring a Cirrus latley?

That is what happens when you get a lot of low time pilots with a lot of money flying aircraft that are beyond their league. Just like a Columbia or a Bonanza or malibu. Think it is bad now? Wait until the VLJ's come out.


User currently offlineJoness0154 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13005 times:

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 6):
They are saying a lot of stupid things.

Well I just watched it on MSNBC, and the guy on the phone the newscasters were talking to seemed to know his stuff pretty well.



I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 12963 times:

Great news that they got out. What a brilliant safety device the parachute is.

http://www.cirrusdesign.com/chutehappens/

Thanks
Mike


User currently offlineTnreynolds From Australia, joined May 2006, 7 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 12945 times:

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 6):
That is what happens when you get a lot of low time pilots with a lot of money flying aircraft that are beyond their league.

Exacatly!  checkmark  checkmark 

Flying Cessnas just aint cool anymore.



There cannot be a crisis next week. My schedule is already full.
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6180 posts, RR: 34
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12712 times:

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 6):
That is what happens when you get a lot of low time pilots with a lot of money flying aircraft that are beyond their league.

"A lot of low time Pilots"...

Do you even know how many CAPS deployments there have been to justify using the term "a lot"??

Do you even know any of the pilots to justify describing them as "low time"?



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12673 times:
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It's great to hear everyone was safe.


re: a comment above about Cirrus needing parachutes, are you statistically saying that they have more incidents and accidents than other small aircraft?

If not, then the parachute system is a great benefit to having a Cirrus.



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlineAPFPilot1985 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12640 times:

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 10):
"A lot of low time Pilots"...

Do you even know how many CAPS deployments there have been to justify using the term "a lot"??

Do you even know any of the pilots to justify describing them as "low time"?

Sure do, and if you don't agree talk to an insurance agency and see what I mean. I'm not referring to just the CAPS deployments either.


User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6180 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 12555 times:

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 12):
Sure do,

Oh, sure... so you know one of the pilots that have had to deploy their parachute... right! Which one of the "lots of low time pilots" that you claim?

For your information, there has only been 5 deployments, not including todays! So that really backs up your baseless assertion...

That is what happens when you get a lot of low time pilots with a lot of money flying aircraft that are beyond their league.

And the reasons they pulled the chute have nothing to do with "an aircraft that is beyond their league" as you claim with absolutely no facts!!

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 12):
I'm not referring to just the CAPS deployments either.

Oh, sure, now you try to change your tune. In your own words...

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 6):
That is what happens when you get a lot of low time pilots with a lot of money flying aircraft that are beyond their league.

So, since you must know that each Cirrus pilot is "low time" and the reasons why they deployed CAPS, please explain just how the Cirrus is an aircraft "beyond the league of the pilots", and, more relevant, why in an aircraft like the 172 these "low time pilots" would not have had to deploy CAPS!



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 12529 times:

Planemaker calm down you will give yourself a stroke. You must own alot of Cirrus stock.  Wink

User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3503 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12421 times:

I have yet to see any evidence that Cirrus pilots are somehow more "low time" than any other pilot group. My father owns and flies a Cirrus (SR20). Like most other Cirrus pilots that I've met at Cirrus fly-ins and other events, he traded up from other airplane types (Pipers, Cessnas, etc.).

The fact is that you far more likely to find a "low-time" pilot flying a Cessna 172 than a Cirrus. And it's too bad the pilots of the Cessnas can only dream of a system such as CAPS.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6381 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12421 times:

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Thread starter):
Just on MSNBC, went down into a lake with a successful deployment of the parachute.

What an unfortunate place to land! Wonder how long the airframe stayed afloat... On the plus side, as long as it didn't sink, the airframe should be much more repairable...The 1200'/min. descent rate with the CAPS chute causes pretty major structural damage when the mains touch Terra Firma.

Glad all 5?!?!? got out safely...(is that legal in a Cirrrus?).



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2004 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12378 times:

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 6):
That is what happens when you get a lot of low time pilots with a lot of money flying aircraft that are beyond their league.

The pilot was not a low time pilot.


User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12378 times:

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 13):
please explain just how the Cirrus is an aircraft "beyond the league of the pilots", and, more relevant, why in an aircraft like the 172 these "low time pilots" would not have had to deploy CAPS!

Brilliant kid but the Cirrus is not as stable as the 172, especially at slower airspeeds. It also happens to spin much easier than a 172.


User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6180 posts, RR: 34
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12331 times:

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 14):
Planemaker calm down you will give yourself a stroke.

Don't worry... I'm just having fun with the groundless posts.  Wink

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 18):
Brilliant kid but the Cirrus is not as stable as the 172, especially at slower airspeeds. It also happens to spin much easeier than a 172.

Brilliant kid - shows how little you know. Please point out the Cirrus accidents that could have been avoided in a 172.

In any case, the Cirrus stall speed is only 6 knots more than the 172 so it should be obvious to you that it is not "much easier" to stall than a 172... especially with its leading edge cuffs!!



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4278 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 12274 times:

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 10):
"A lot of low time Pilots"...

Do you even know how many CAPS deployments there have been to justify using the term "a lot"??

Do you even know any of the pilots to justify describing them as "low time"?

While this might prove to be the exception and not the rule, there was a Cirrus based in Alabama that had an engine failure last year, iirc, flown by an experienced pilot (good amount of jet time, etc) that necessitated the use of CAPS. Worked perfectly and all souls survived. Seems to be a good system for use in emergencies like that.

I also do know a couple of pilots who have lower time in their Cirrus craft. I don't think we can brand the Cirrus anyting like "The Doctor Killer" (Bonanza), but any high powered airplane has the potential to cause potentially fatal problems to low time pilots.

In any event, good to hear that all souls on board are safe!

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6180 posts, RR: 34
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 12237 times:

Quoting Texan (Reply 20):
While this might prove to be the exception and not the rule, there was a Cirrus based in Alabama that had an engine failure last year, iirc, flown by an experienced pilot (good amount of jet time, etc) that necessitated the use of CAPS. Worked perfectly and all souls survived. Seems to be a good system for use in emergencies like that.

Yes, FYI, the very first CAPS deployment was on the Cirrus' first flight after maintenance and the aileron was rigged incorrectly. As I pointed out above, none of the Cirrus deployments would have been avoided even if the pilots were flying a 172.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 941 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12134 times:
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My local news program just reported that the father and pilot of the plane did get out alive but later died from injuries.

User currently offlineAPFPilot1985 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12089 times:

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 13):
So, since you must know that each Cirrus pilot is "low time" and the reasons why they deployed CAPS, please explain just how the Cirrus is an aircraft "beyond the league of the pilots", and, more relevant, why in an aircraft like the 172 these "low time pilots" would not have had to deploy CAPS!

I am not talking about CAPS and never had, I have said multiple times I would own a cirrus before any other GA aircraft BECAUSE of CAPS. I am talking about how much it costs to insure a Cirrus. The reason is because that many low time pilots with a lot of money are buying them. If you don't believe me ask any insurance adjuster. Any of the new (and even older but still built) high performance singles are the same way.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 15):
The fact is that you far more likely to find a "low-time" pilot flying a Cessna 172 than a Cirrus. And it's too bad the pilots of the Cessnas can only dream of a system such as CAPS.

You mean the exact same system that is STC'd on the 172 and has been since 2002

http://brsparachutes.com/Default.aspx?TabId=38


User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2004 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12071 times:

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 23):
I am talking about how much it costs to insure a Cirrus. The reason is because that many low time pilots with a lot of money are buying them. If you don't believe me ask any insurance adjuster.

Planes aren't the same as cars. Most insurance agencies base rates upon the actual pilots, history of the aircraft, or location. What would you be your best guess be for a $400,000 SR22 be for an annual premium for a 5,000 hour pilot? or a 1,000 hour pilot?


25 Rdwelch : Robert, thanks for for letting us know. May he rest in peace. Gus
26 APFPilot1985 : WE aren't talking about that. I am talking about pilots with 100 hours or 200 hours that just got their license and aren't ready for something like a
27 Flyinryan99 : You're missing the point here. So far the SR20/SR22 have had great records...I was mostly referring to maintenance. The point was, one's rate isn't g
28 APFPilot1985 : double post disregard[Edited 2006-08-29 00:27:03]
29 APFPilot1985 : Ok bottom line, two pilots equal time, lets say 500 hours both one with an SR-20, one with a 182T who is going to pay more to insure the aircraft. Bo
30 Travelin man : Yeah, I guess I should have said a system "most" Cessna pilots can only dream of. What percentage of Cirrus' have the system vs. the percentage of 17
31 APFPilot1985 : Doesn't matter that's not what you said. The reality is that the average 172/182 pilot does have access to the system however the question is if the
32 Travelin man : At this point, I really don't even understand what you are arguing. Cirrus pilots are less capable? The Cirrus is hard to handle? Cirrus pilots have l
33 Planemaker : Ok - but, FYI, your initial response to Tnreynolds was not clear about that. I would assume the 182T pilot for the simple reason that the SR-20 has m
34 APFPilot1985 : What I am arguing is that with the advent of fast and technically challenging aircraft there have been a number of people with a lot of money that go
35 ZOTAN : A lot would depend on the hours on type. If both were coming from say, a 172, then the pilot transitioning to the 182T would be paying less in insura
36 Aerogeek : ... and could instill false confidence in some pilots. We've seen this with car safety features such as antilock brakes, airbags, traction control, e
37 Post contains links AirTranTUS : Since this forum has gotton EXTREMELY off the main topic, let me post some updates. The pilot bacame incapacitated after takeoff for unknown reasons a
38 GQfluffy : Next they'll say all that these schmoes need to do to is dry the aircraft off and restuff the shute....
39 Planemaker : I would agree absolutely that false confidence could be a factor in some pilots. But at 500 hrs (the above scenario for insurance coverage) I would h
40 Post contains links KELPkid : According to this article here: http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/cirrus-sr20
41 MCOflyer : May both RIP. MCOflyer
42 Planemaker : " target=_blank>http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/c...-sr20 Why??? Because the author finds it... " harder to keep level with rudders in a stall than
43 Sr22gts : Good to hear about a successful chute deployment. RIP to the gentleman that lost his life.
44 Sphealey : > On the plus side, as long as it didn't sink, the > airframe should be much more repairable.. I believe the airplane is destroyed by chute deployemen
45 APFPilot1985 : If you wanted an example of what I am talking about with low time pilots here you go: Now let's look at a preliminary NTSB report of a fatal Cirrus st
46 Aerogeek : Sorry to stray off-topic, but... I generally agree, though even high-time VFR pilots can get into trouble when upgrading to a nice airplane and an ins
47 EclipseFlight7 : SOP in a spin is to pull the CAPS handle.
48 APFPilot1985 : Spot on, in fact in cirrus training pilots are told not to even waste time trying to get themselves out of one or recovering.
49 Post contains images JBirdAV8r : Actually yes. A bugger--and painful--to say the least. Absolutely correct. True. In fact when I was getting standardized as an instructor in the Cirr
50 Accidentally : Dang, EYE is just a few blocks from my apartment here, and in fact just off the end of runway 03. I didnt even know this happened until I saw it on he
51 TumbledGyro : To add my two cents, from what I have read regarding insurance premiums on Cirrus aircraft versus other types, the Cirrus has been considerably higher
52 Post contains links APFPilot1985 : kind of ironic but i just got an email on this moments ago http://www.apstraining.com/press-rel...-aug-06-cirrus-specific-ground.htm
53 2H4 : Given that the majority of insurance claims are repairs (as opposed to the replacement of the entire airplane), could the higher insurance premiums o
54 APFPilot1985 : Unless CAPS was used The tradeoff though is that Composites are supposed to require less repair due to their strength. Cirrus actually has done an ex
55 Ward86IND : Wow this kinda hits home... This crash happened literally down the road from my house, about 2 minutes away. And the girl I'm dating does dental assis
56 TinkerBelle : I bet his family could care less... they just lost a loved one. RIP to him. I think it's kinda disrespectful to start arguing about a plane when a li
57 RampGuy : The man piloting this aircraft later died at the hospital.
58 AvroArrow : I was under the impression, from reading more than a few articles about the SR 20/22 in magazines, that CAPS was installed for certification purposes
59 RampGuy : I heard on the news this morning that the pilot may have had a stroke just prior to the crash.
60 Accidentally : Where are you located? I'm off of 56th next to Union Federal. Where did it go down exactly?
61 Comanche : What's with Cirrus, they seem to have more than their share of problems. Perhaps it is their parachute recovery system that attracts headlines every t
62 N844AA : I respect and appreciate what you're saying, and I'm sure all of us on here have lost family members, perhaps in similarly tragic circumstances, and
63 Travelin man : Well, in this particular instance according to the article, the pilot had a stroke or other debilitating medical problem, and his wife (who didn't kn
64 Revelation : I'm kind of surprised the plane got certified, then. I don't know the certification rules, but geez, one spin and the plane crashes doesn't sound lik
65 KELPkid : I doubt it, as most stall/spin accidents occur in the traffic pattern (1000' AGL and lower), and to top it off, the BRS does have a minimum operating
66 JBirdAV8r : If you think the Cirrus is bad, you should try spinning a Traumahawk (Tomahawk)....ouch. I seem to remember the lowest demonstrated CAPS deployment a
67 APFPilot1985 : It was able to still be certified because of the stall resistant wing and the CAPS
68 Ward86IND : The plane went down in a neighborhood off 21st & Raceway, and I live in a neighborhood off 21st & Girls School, a little bit to the east.
69 TumbledGyro : I believe the minimum recommended altitude for the CAPS is 1500 feet agl. Also, I believe the aircraft was certified as spin resistant. Many tests wer
70 EclipseFlight7 : Are you sure about that? I was under the assumption that CAPS has been used by aircraft in the pattern before, which would make it useless. Unfortuna
71 CptSpeaking : I've been on a CFI demo flight with a Cirrus rep in one of their own airplanes and we stalled it just fine. Horn blaring, we were flying right throug
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