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Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4  
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 11846 posts, RR: 18
Posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 29109 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Since part 3 is now taking to long to serve on some peoples servers here is part 4.

May the victims rest in peace and may the AirTran pilot killed in the tragic crash continue to patrol the skys.

186 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSKGSJULAX From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 28994 times:
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Quoting SKGSJULAX (Reply 202):
Was the intersection of taxiway Alpha-5 and RWY 26 relocated/
rearranged recently (during the resurfacing)?

Quoting DeltaDC9
Yes, the taxiways and access roads are all part of the big 4 phase project
being worked on. It is not just a resurfacing project.


So there is a chance that they turned on to RWY26 thinking they were turning on the old "stub" taxiway (old A-6?) for takeoff.



Omnium curiositatum explorator
User currently offlineDTW757 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1526 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 28874 times:

I noticed by looking at the aerial pictures of taxiway "A" at rwy 26 that the numbers would be off the the right of the airplane and the captain. Not that that is any reason for them to turn onto 26 but it's looking like perhaps a number of things may have contributed to the crash.

As the pilots approached runway 26 from taxiway A (if that is the route they took) there would have been no lighted red sign for the runway as there is no ILS for that runway. However I would think that there would have been a yellow sign surely lit up stating they were at 8-26. Now if the taxiway was moved recently was that sign moved to the proper position? If that sign was not in the proper position, the runway numbers were to the right and hard to see, and the runway was illuminated (and that's if) I can see how this mistake can be made.

I would like to see some pictures of taxiway A at rwy 26.



721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,388,146,CR2,7,ERJ,
User currently offlineMika From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 2840 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 28799 times:

Does anyone know if the LEX 18 live news video feed is supposed to be up 24/7 or if this is a service that is only up on special occasions? I got this link from the original thread about this crash and spent all of last night (Swedish time that is) watching the unfolding of this crash, along with accounts of some of the people that sadly perished in this tragedy.

Just comes to show how small our world is getting when a guy on the other side of the world can with TV like quality follow live news from a local american news station.

I´m just wondering if that feed is supposed to be on still or if there´s something gone haywire in my connection/computer?

Here´s the link: http://www.wlextv.com/global/video/p...ory.asp%3FS%3D4827296&rnd=84547306


May god rest the souls lost in this tragic accident and may the co-pilot fighting for his life as we speak have a full recovery.


User currently offlineDTW757 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1526 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 28748 times:

Quoting Mika (Reply 3):
I´m just wondering if that feed is supposed to be on still or if there´s something gone haywire in my connection/computer?

The link goes to recorded video and is working



721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,388,146,CR2,7,ERJ,
User currently offlineJamake1 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 978 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 28748 times:

Quoting Mika (Reply 3):
Just comes to show how small our world is getting when a guy on the other side of the world can with TV like quality follow live news from a local american news station.

I am inclined to agree. Who needs cable TV?



"She's a a cruel lover."...E. Diaz referring to United's B747-400.
User currently offlineFlyboySMF2GFK From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 28692 times:

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 2):
As the pilots approached runway 26 from taxiway A (if that is the route they took) there would have been no lighted red sign for the runway as there is no ILS for that runway.

Not true - there should be red, lighted signs at the runway 26 hold-short line at taxiway alpha. There does not need to be an ILS for that at all, however existence of an ILS may mandate an ILS hold, which is somewhat similarly marked and procedurally, when in effect, treated the same as a runway hold short line.


User currently offlineARGIEPILOT From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 28587 times:

Hi to all! Also my first post here at A.Net though I have been enjoying many of the well argued and informed discussions at the forum.

In my opinion the Airline pilot profession has been suffering greatly since deregulation and will continue to do so in this downward trend line. Lower and lower wages, shorter rest times, shorter layovers, are all consequences of the survival desperation of the airlines in today's competitive business. Unfortunately, we shall continue seeing these kinds of accidents.

These two pilots were probably underpaid, tired, in a hurry, in a confusing scenario taking off from a "V" shape runway layout (with one of the RWYs being not suitable for the CRJs). If it weren�t these guys it would just have been for others to fall in the same trap. It�s just their working conditions. Something they can�t change.

The main question to me is WHY and WHO puts them to fly in that condition?

My sincere condolences for the families of all who died in the crash.


User currently offlineDTW757 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1526 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 28564 times:

Quoting FlyboySMF2GFK (Reply 6):
Not true - there should be red, lighted signs at the runway 26 hold-short line at taxiway alpha. There does not need to be an ILS for that at all, however existence of an ILS may mandate an ILS hold, which is somewhat similarly marked and procedurally, when in effect, treated the same as a runway hold short line.

You are correct. Then the red sign should be at hold point for 8/26. I was thinking of the yellow signs on a taxiway that direct you to the runway.



721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,388,146,CR2,7,ERJ,
User currently offlineN844AA From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 28545 times:

Quoting ARGIEPILOT (Reply 7):
In my opinion the Airline pilot profession has been suffering greatly since deregulation and will continue to do so in this downward trend line. Lower and lower wages, shorter rest times, shorter layovers, are all consequences of the survival desperation of the airlines in today's competitive business. Unfortunately, we shall continue seeing these kinds of accidents.

But see, I'm not sure that's the case. Air travel has been more or less "safe" since the dawn of the jet age, but even compared to already-low accident levels at that time, air travel today is vastly safer than compared to, say the 1960s.

I don't have the data at hand, but if you compare pre-deregulation accident rates to post-deregulation accident rates, I know I've seen charts that indicate the skies are safer today than ever before (at least in the U.S., anyway.) The industry's safety advances in the last twenty years have been remarkable, and by and large, we don't continue to see these kinds of accidents -- they've been hammered out by improvements in training and cockpit resource management, and don't happen with nearly the regularity that they used to.



New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4773 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 28492 times:

Quoting ARGIEPILOT (Reply 7):
Hi to all! Also my first post here at A.Net though I have been enjoying many of the well argued and informed discussions at the forum.

Firstly Welcome to A.net!

Quoting ARGIEPILOT (Reply 7):
In my opinion the Airline pilot profession has been suffering greatly since deregulation and will continue to do so in this downward trend line. Lower and lower wages, shorter rest times, shorter layovers, are all consequences of the survival desperation of the airlines in today's competitive business. Unfortunately, we shall continue seeing these kinds of accidents.

These two pilots were probably underpaid, tired, in a hurry, in a confusing scenario taking off from a "V" shape runway layout (with one of the RWYs being not suitable for the CRJs). If it weren�t these guys it would just have been for others to fall in the same trap. It�s just their working conditions. Something they can�t change.

The main question to me is WHY and WHO puts them to fly in that condition?

Yes things are tougher since deregulation (particularly in the US).
As for the comments about the crew, that is pure speculation... however what I have heard so far is that this particular crew was in fact well rested and since the plane was parked there overnight there shouldn't have been an particular rush. I will agree that in other circumstances at other airports there is greater pressure on pilots now than in decades gone by.



54 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineBonjourmoi44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 28400 times:

I have now heard several recent reports that the N.T.S.B. confirmed that runway 8/26 lights were not on and that the taxi way had within only days been reconfigured for commercial flights.

User currently offlineRIXrat From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 28383 times:

If you missed my post at the end of Chapter III, I said that according to the posts I've read and the links I've crossed, the crew had a 28-hour rest period before boarding the fateful CR-100.

User currently offlineAxio From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 28281 times:

Since the other thread got closed can I please ask my question again...

Is the second runway at LEX necessary?

If the runway layout is the complicating factor, and I apologize if this sounds like a knee-jerk reaction, but would closing the cross-runway be an option?

My understanding of a cross-runway it that is would serve one of two purposes:
1. Allow lighter planes to take-off/land during large crosswinds against the main runway
2. Allow for more traffic.

Now, given the small heading seperation between the two runways, it hardly seems that the first option is the case. So unless the main runway gets so busy with other traffic, I'm not sure what the reason for having a second runway is.

ax



Time for a new viewing deck at AKL!
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 28080 times:

I wonder if they will be able to sync the ATC tapes and black boxes with the taxiing locations.

Many times at a small airport during periods of low activity, an aicraft will be given clearnance to takeoff prior to reaching the runway threshold.... given the proximity of the two thresholds, perhaps they got their t/o clearance on the taxi and had everything "ready to roll" prior to even reaching Runway 26?



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineGh123 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 27988 times:

Another plane had just crashed in Kentucky - 7 dead.

User currently offlineGh123 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 27957 times:

A small plane carrying seven people crashed in southeastern Kentucky on Monday, with no immediate word on the condition of those aboard.

Kathleen Bergen, spokeswoman for the Federal Aviation Administration in Atlanta, said the twin-engine Cessna departed from Kickapoo Downtown Airport near Wichita Falls, Texas. She said she didn't know the destination because the pilot did not file a flight plan.

"The plane apparently crashed somewhere near Jackson, Kentucky," Bergen said. "I don't have anything more specific."

The crash happened in a remote and wooded area of Breathitt County around 2:45 p.m.

Monica Morris, manager of the city-owned Kickapoo Downtown Airport in Wichita Falls, confirmed that the flight originated from the small municipal facility but she had no further information on the pilot or passengers.

Rescue workers on all-terrain vehicles found the crash site with the help of a helicopter flying overhead, said Buddy Rogers, a spokesman for the Kentucky Division of Emergency Management.

Rogers said the passengers' conditions remained uncertain.


User currently offlineAgpatel From United States of America, joined May 2008, 2 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 27816 times:

Past few days seem have been a sad times in aviation...I am pretty sure the NTSB can sync up the tapes as all that is needed is to start the tapes at the time stamp...


-AnK
User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 27715 times:

Quoting 777ER (Thread starter):
may the AirTran pilot killed in the tragic crash continue to patrol the skys.

Does anyone know who this guy was?


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 27698 times:

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 18):
Does anyone know who this guy was?

See Part 2 . . . there's a newspaper story in there.

And see Non-Av, there's a thread in there.


User currently offlineBakestar From Australia, joined Sep 2005, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 27619 times:

How familiar were the crew at that particular field?

Who was in the ATC at the time?, are they new to the job?

Wouldn't the aircraft in question have data on the runways stored in it's Flight Management System, or other systems?

Was ANYONE aware that the runway might have been too short?

Was the pilot under pressure to take off?



fly'nhi
User currently offlineTvnewsguy08 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 27366 times:

Just a quick note to thank all of the people who got so active on this thread. As a journalist covering the plane crash (actually I'm in Knoxville, one bigger city to the South), I found that many of you gave me story ideas that I was able to follow up for use on air.

A lot of the facts (history of the plane, CRJ crashes, runway problems) I was able to then use your information, independently confirm it or expand on it, then use it to enhance my coverage.

One huge tip was the person who posted the info on the flight report in 1993 of a pilot who had done almost the same thing. I was able to independently confirm and it gave me an edge in my coverage.

Plus, I know CNN is reading, because they got the information, too.

I know there was a lot of grief from some, upset over the media coverage of the story, inaccuracies, etc, but when the media and aviation communities work together, the public is better informed.

Thanks for your thoughts (all unquoted, of course) and your ideas. They really helped me understand what people want to hear about and need to know.

Brian


User currently offlineJdl1527 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 27014 times:

Back to the CRJ-100 vs CRJ-200
here is what i have found

"The CRJ-100 series was then replaced in production by the "CRJ-200", which was much the same except for fit of GE CF34-3B1 turbofans with the same thrust levels as the CF34-3A1 but improved fuel consumption. Initial deliveries were in 1996." (http://www.vectorsite.net/avcrj.html)

to be exact the CRJ-100/200/440 are all the same airframe, just different motors and weight and certified pax capacity.

Bombardier will stamp what you want on it.
I can not confirm this but would in not make sense for OH to order the 100 variant just for the fact of commonality with their older fleet. Remember they were the NA Launch customer for the CRJ

for what i have seen OH operates 40 and 50 seat CRJs. OH could reconfigure the 40 pax back to 50 if they wanted as the 100 and 200 are certified as 50 pax, then you have Pinnacle and the crj440, this is a 200 just certified as 44 pax and lower weights. if Pinnacle wanted to put 50 seats in there they would have to retype the aircraft. $$$$

I do believe that this was a CRJ-100 just because the OH has a large fleet of older 100's

Flame as you may


User currently offlineJdl1527 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 26932 times:

ok heres what it was for sure
CL-600-2B19

hah


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 26847 times:

49 people die a horrific death by being burned to death and all some of us can talk about is what type of plane it was....??? CRJ100 or 200 it reallly doesn't matter...!! They are so close to being the same plane only a pilot or mechanic would really care or even be able to tell them a part.

[Edited 2006-08-29 04:34:26]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
25 2H4 : It's a discussion forum EMBQA. People tend to discuss related information and sort out the facts. 2H4
26 ANCFlyer : The Comair President said in his news conference on the day of the crash . . . the aircraft was built/delivered in 2001. I can't imagine that qualifi
27 Post contains links Gh123 : http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/15383982.htm Wife of 'incredible' pilot says crash not his fault By Valarie Honeycutt Spears HERALD-LEADER STAFF
28 EMBQA : Agreed... But as I added........they are so close to being the same plane, it really dosn't matter. I could put 90% of the A.netters in front of a 10
29 Jdl1527 : i do agree but this is a discussion forum, in all respect is does not matter at all, but i would just like to sort out the facts. I appreciate the you
30 Aerobalance : Your Welcome - not a problem. Glad to know that your looking for the facts.
31 Jdl1527 : I dont think that Bombardier ever stopped building it, its just that with the better engines on the -200 there would not be much demand for the -100
32 Cltguy : Wow...so the lights were off on Rwy 26 and the pilots even made mention of the lights being out...and yet they took off anyways...in the dark, down an
33 Post contains links N844AA : New article up with apparently new details, which Cltguy alluded to: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/29/us/29crash.html[Edited 2006-08-29 08:01:40]
34 ANCFlyer : So, some questions for pilots here: a) Would there not have been a question raised if the lights on 26 were not illuminated, but the lights on 22 wer
35 Post contains links Bonjourmoi44 : From the N.T.S.B. website: source: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060828X01244&key=1
36 N844AA : I'm by no means a pilot, so pardon me for intruding on your question, but to engage in a little baseless speculation: what if the pilots had been inf
37 Post contains links Panamair : One theory currently being floated is that the pilots may have been confused because there was an advisory that part of the lights on runway 22 were
38 EKGOLD : Was it dark at takeoff or dawn? The reason i say this is that if the centre lights were out and daylight was beginning to appear, the lights at the ed
39 Bonjourmoi44 : Obviously I am not a professional investigator by any means, but with that being said I am looking at the old airport before repaving via google Earth
40 CV990 : Hi! I just connected this morning with CNN and they didn't a very interesting simulation what could have happened in the DL5191. What the aviation exp
41 VS239 : Just as a matter of interest, is it common practice for pilots to check the compass before taking off or not? In this case wouldn't a look at the comp
42 CURLYHEADBOY : Well, as the coroner said, the crash was survivable but most of the people onboard died of fire-related injuries. If pilots had aborted takeoff, they
43 Post contains links Mika : Thank you, that´s what i´m getting aswell so no probs with my equipment at least. Amen to that! And a an aviation discussion board at that. I don´
44 Post contains links Spacecadet : " target=_blank>http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...key=1 Odd, the FAA disagrees: http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/a...reliminary_data/media/B_08
45 Mika : Are there any news regarding the condition of the first officer by the way? Last i´ve heard is that he´s still in critical condition and being opera
46 727forever : Which aircraft type was the CNN expert using? This sounds like not only the format of but the type of information that the Airbus provides. In the CR
47 Mika : Very good and informative post here. If someone like yourself who has actually operated commercial RJ flights out of this airport and have the experi
48 RobertS975 : As I have previously posted, there is no doubt as to why this plane crashed. The key here is to understand why a crew like this made the mistakes that
49 VS239 : Good and informative post from someone who has been there. Many thanks
50 TTailSteve : If they made a rolling takeoff, that is advanced the throttles as they turned onto the runway, the compass would be useless to check. A compass is no
51 Ewmahle : I saw on CNN this morning, and this may have already been known, or even posted and I missed up, but the recordings indicate that the F/O was piloting
52 CV990 : Hi 727forever. Thanks for your detailled information and knowing that you used a lot LEX makes you here in Airliners.Net forum a great value. The CNN
53 NIKV69 : We know this. Fatigue had nothing to do with this crash. All this is true but it seems he just made and honest mistake and lined up on the wrong runw
54 Gh123 : Been there. I have often had to think twice about which runway I am on during the taxi to 22. I fly from Lexington a lot (small stuff - Cessna 182/17
55 Gh123 : Survivor in coma; called 'a fighter' DOCTORS AT UK ARE CONSIDERING AMPUTATION By Steve Lannen HERALD-LEADER STAFF WRITER The lone survivor of Sunday's
56 Skaggs : Here is a video of a flight I just made on MFS.
57 Redcordes : Just read this quote from a NTSB spokesperson on the CNN website: The data recorder recovered from the crash site showed that plane reached a top spee
58 Gh123 : It seems so. There was a man who was working on the farm where it crashed. He said that although the plane bounced on the bank, hit the fence it stil
59 Gh123 : According to the Lexington Daily Herald: This is not the first time Polehinke has had a near-death experience. His wife, Ida, shot him in the abdomen
60 Mika : Actually it wasn't him, the captain, that was at the controls of the plane out of LEX. It was the F/O, James Polehinke, that is now fighting for his
61 RobertS975 : There is a realm of the power curve called the "coffin corner" for good reason. Flying at minimal airspeed, very high angle of attack... attempt to ra
62 Post contains images Gh123 : In a report yesterday it said that the trees caused the plane to lose a wing and its tail. According to a witness, the plane looked as though it was
63 808TWA : On the ground, it is always the Captain (left seat) who steers the aircraft, no matter who will be "flying" the ship. Ultimately it would have been t
64 Mika : Oh is this so? I actually had no idea of that. I assumed that whoever was going to be the pilot flying that leg was the one who manouvered the A/C fr
65 Okie73 : not always true. There are some larger airplanes with nosewheel steering on both sides.
66 DTW757 : Are there any diagrams or photos showing these changes?
67 DAYflyer : Welcome to anet! Nice to have you with us all.
68 808TWA : I agree that there may be steering controls on both sides of some aircraft, but standard rules are that the left seat controls the steering of the ai
69 Post contains links Vref5 : From the Louisville Courier-Journal newspaper today: http://www.courier-journal.com/assets/B239280829.JPG
70 Etops1 : Here is a video of a flight I just made on MFS. dude , i did the same thing. posky a/c and all.
71 Post contains links Vega9000 : According to CNN, the pilots commented that the runway lights were out, but went ahead with the take-off. http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/08/29/plane.c
72 KALB : The current KLEX airport map expires 8/31 (http://map.aeroplanner.com/plates/FaaPlates_pdfs/00697AD.PDF), but still shows the old taxiway configuratio
73 Post contains images JetBlue : That is definitely a confusing change they've made. It now seems much clearer at how easy it must've been to get them confused, especially since thei
74 NIKV69 : We can argue semantics all day. The captain was sitting there and had a head set on. He knew what runway they were cleared for. If he saw something a
75 Rdhamr309 : I was just reading in yahoo news saying the NTSB saying there might have been some confusion with the runway lights as they were slightly different wh
76 808TWA : Hi Mika, sorry I missed your response, but I think I answered it in reply 68. In addition though, most aircraft (not all) only have a nose-wheel stee
77 Jumpseat70 : This man needs to find out what he's here for. Two, hopefully, "near death" experiences and he's, hopefully, still around. There is a purpose here for
78 N844AA : I'm not making light of this tragedy, but when I heard there was one survivor, I was reminded of that movie "Unbreakable." To hear about his second c
79 Theunclesam : If you check the CNN videos today, it looks like they did a MFS video as well. Pretty funny that they used it to "re-create" what happened. Fine for
80 808TWA : Plus they used the default Mircrosoft 737-400 aircraft. CNN must be getting their ideas from A.net! but at least we used the correct aircraft type in
81 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Is it known if he was pilot-in-command at the time of the crash? Depends on the location of the steering tiller on the CRJ. B4e-Forever New Frontiers
82 DTW757 : I too can see that the change in the taxiway would have added to the confusion. However and unforunately, that does not change anything. The pilots ar
83 Zrb2 : How ironic that the FAA mandate to lengthen the safety areas on runways was a small part in why this plane crashed (i.e. changing the taxi pattern to
84 71Zulu : The Captain is always the Pilot in Command (PIC) even though the First Officer happens to be flying that particular leg.
85 MD88Captain : The PIC is the person who signs for the aircraft - the Captain. The PF (pilot flying) is the one at the controls. The PM (pilot monitoring) or PNF (pi
86 Litz : I did see a report that the copilot was the pilot flying ... (typical media+grain of salt disclaimer) - litz
87 Contrails : My thoughts also. I had been wondering how the accident happened ever since Sunday morning, but now I think I understand. Such a simple yet costly mi
88 Post contains images Vref5 : To clarify: The distinction can be a little subtle. PIC is the person in the plane with the ultimate legal authority for safe flight. This doesn't ha
89 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Indeed I stand corrected...thank you for the responses! So, is it as of yet too early to firmly establish who was the Pilot Flying at the time of the
90 Post contains images Boeing4ever : hmmmm, I was a little late there with my post. Thank you Vref. So indeed, legally speaking as of the preliminary findings, the Captain looks to be at
91 Post contains images 727forever : The microsoft flight sim 2004 demo is nice, but not quite accurate. I'll admit, after 7,000 hours of flight time, I still play that thing from time to
92 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Comair Flight Almost Made It; Mystery Deepens http://www.airportbusiness.com/artic.../article.jsp?siteSecti
93 Beefstew25 : Which runway did they pave? 22 or 26?
94 Bonjourmoi44 : 22 and a very small part of 26 where it intersects with 22.
95 Avi8tir : Can anybody give an estimate of V1, Vr, V2 would have been on this flight?
96 Lowrider : 137 kts is just barely flying at the almost 50,000 lb T/O weight in that aircraft. I knew the CA, and always thought him to have a very professional
97 Jhooper : It's interesting that you can log PIC time as long as you're "sole manipulator of the controls" on an aircraft in which you're rated, regardless of w
98 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: WHAS-TV -- 04:18 PM EDT on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 Reporters Allowed On Crash Site http://www.whas11.com/topstories/sto.../WHAS11_TOP_PoolF
99 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: WLEX-TV First Video From Crash Site - Raw and not yet edited. http://www.wlextv.com/global/video/p...p%3A//www.wlextv.com/&rnd=81526768
100 Gh123 : 40,987 pounds -- requiring at least 3,539 feet of runway to get airborne I know that this is not the V1 but for your information.[Edited 2006-08-29 2
101 Lowrider : I believe that was the ZFW. I have seen it elsewhere where the TOW was approx 49,600 lbs. Considering the Pax load, a 41k lbs aircraft doesn't make s
102 71Zulu : No, the NTSB spokesman said Bombardier said it would take 3,539 feet to get only the nosewheel off the ground; didn't hear them give a figure on the
103 Post contains links KarlB737 : NTSB Briefing right now - 5:26 PM Tuesday http://www.whas11.com/sharedcontent/...Id=57426&live=yes&props=liveplayer Feed has quit at 5:38 even though
104 Moose135 : From Bloomberg News - FAA says they should have had 2 controllers on duty:
105 ATCGOD : Believe me, this happens all the time. And it wouldn't at all be uncommon (if it were very slow) to have that one controller step out for a restroom
106 Post contains links ATCGOD : A tower controller has so many duties, especially when working alone. They don't only act as terminal control but also ground, flight data, clearance
107 Post contains links GAIsweetGAI : The FAA is now admitting there should have been more than one controller there at that time. http://news.yahoo.com/fc/Business/Aviation_and_Aerospace
108 AA54Heavy : Okay, so now they've said that the indeed took off on an unlit runway and the pilots commented on it when starting their roll. Is it illegal, or again
109 Post contains links KarlB737 : Better Video Footage - Courtesy: Associated Press Video http://video.ap.org/v/en-ap/v.htm?g=...-9D30-8644967FAD86&f=midtf&fg=copy
110 Rongotai : The problem with all these 'in the end it is the pilots who were responsible for their own mistakes' responses is that there seems to be an assumption
111 Mika : Very well put!
112 Post contains links and images DeC : Some pics of the crash site i made from the 1st raw video:
113 Avion : Hey I am wondering why havent they released any pictures of the cabin section of that CRJ yet? Regards, Tom
114 FlyboySMF2GFK : Being too lazy to do proper in-depth research after all the yardwork I just did, IIRC the taxiway/runway configuration at Blue Grass seems to indicat
115 EMBQA : Because there is no cabin area left. It was incenerated.... Of the pictures above in thread 112, the third one down best shows what is left.[Edited 2
116 B777ER : Just read this from the AP (summary of what I have not already seen written above): Polehinke was flying the plane when it crashed, but it was the fli
117 EMBQA : Reduced Rest Overnight... or more commonly know as a 'High-Speed'. Three hours..? Not even... If the arrival time above is correct... they chocked in
118 B777ER : Well...that is something ALPA and other pilot unions need to focus on then IMO especially in the wake of this incident. They basically have been awake
119 N844AA : I don't know if I've become fixated on this crash or what, but I'm starting to have some real anxiety about my next flight this weekend. This is reall
120 Spacecadet : And there will no doubt be contributing factors cited by the NTSB in this accident, and this may be one of them. The NTSB almost never blames pilot e
121 Lowrider : The Crew was not on a Reduced Rest Overnight. These are also know as High Speeds, Illegals, Stand Up Overnights, and Continous Duty Overnights. The Co
122 Vref5 : For what it's worth... the Captain's wife said he had arrived around 1530 local time the day before. She should know; she flew in on a separate fligh
123 Skyway1 : When I worked for Chicago Express there would be certain nights(if they were short crews) that the terminator into DAY(12:59AM) was brought in and th
124 Rongotai : Spacecadet: I don't think we really disagree much. Yes, there were clearly human errors on the flightdeck. Yes, some of them were startling and appear
125 71Zulu : It has been established although the NTSB will not confirm it that this crew was well rested. F/O Polhinke and F/A Heyer were part of a crew that ferr
126 SWAOPSusafATC : The FMC would not tell them anything on departure roll. The flight director is set to T/O mode showing F/D pitch for T/O and Bank for straight and le
127 Crogalski : Sorry if this was asked.. but wouldnt you notice the runway numbers at some point?
128 727forever : Excellent post. Do you have a Human Factors or Psychology background? Where did you come up with these V-speeds? They are far too low. For 49,000 lbs
129 Itsjustme : Is this something that is easily done, a flight crew boarding the wrong aircraft and making flight preparations?
130 Hannigan : If I remember right doesn't the CRJ only have a nose-wheel steering handle on the left side of the flight deck (for the captain)?
131 Post contains links and images ANCFlyer : This photo of a -700 clearly shows nose-gear steering only on the pilots side: View Large View MediumPhoto © Steve Brimley None of the -200 or -1
132 727forever : There is a cutout in the panel for a tiller to be installed on the right side, however I've never seen a CRJ with a tiller on the right. I know that
133 Post contains links RichardPrice : The BBC is reporting that LEX ATC broke FAA rules at the time of the crash by only having a single controller on duty at the time, and he had his back
134 Post contains links Jamake1 : Chilling photos from the crash site: Courtesy of Lexington Hearald-Leader http://www.heraldleaderphoto.com/fea...leries/featuredgalleriesindex.html
135 EMBQA : Operations can switches tail numbers and you don't get the word
136 Goldenshield : I don't have the METAR from the time, but with a current one, based on zero wind: Flaps 20, the max speeds would be around V1 141, Vr 144, V2 148.[Ed
137 Sofaking : Now the network news talking heads are saying that the FAA tower attendant was alone, and other administrative duties, including inbound traffic and r
138 Goldenshield : Lexington is class C airspace.
139 ANCFlyer : Interesting. Same as Anchorage. Why? Proximity to CVG? SDF? Certainly LEX doesn't get the volumes of traffic we get at ANC (inbound/outbound or trans
140 Post contains links Jumpseat70 : http://www.enquirer.com/editions/1998/08/28/loc_comair28.html Check this link out
141 2H4 : That refers to a different Comair crash... 2H4
142 Post contains images OPNLguy : It happens once in a blue moon, mostly when someone assumes that one "over there" is their aircraft rather than another one further down the concours
143 ATCGOD : There are no regulations against this. It's quite a common practice, especially when you're busy. It's quite possible another aircraft called for a c
144 DMAJ7TH : you may be referring to "reverse command". "coffin corner" is a characteristic of high performance aircraft flying at high altitudes where stall spee
145 RobertS975 : You are probably correct about the term "coffin corner" although perhaps the meaning of the term should be expanded to include the situation that I h
146 Spacecadet : Oh, I agree that we should always do what we can to minimize the chances of an accident. I just think that we disagree on what those actions are that
147 Gh123 : They can blame the ATC controllers but its still the pilots' fault. The aircraft and its operation is their responsibility, not the ATC controller. If
148 Post contains images DMAJ7TH : oh, i agree with you. just wanted to keep the terms correct (at the risk of sounding anal ) i dealt with "reverse command" for many years in 152's an
149 2H4 : I think the more valid concern is what factor(s) caused the pilots to make the mistakes they did. 2H4
150 DMAJ7TH : i've missed the past 24 hours of keeping up with this story. can anyone confirm for me that the lights for runway 26 were indeed definitely off at the
151 ATCGOD : Yes, definitely off and hadn't been used in years.
152 RobertS975 : The lights being out should have been a big red flag for the crew... when was the last time a carrier aircraft flew off a runway before sunrise with n
153 Litz : Unfortunately, the way the taxiways were setup, they would have entered 26 in front of the numbers and made a left turn ... which would have left the
154 Post contains links Gh123 : How it should have gone - CRJ takeoff - NOT flight sim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR2oEgxtqhw
155 OPNLguy : Actually, we have computer safeguards in place to preclude that possibility...
156 Post contains images David L : Just for the record and certainly for larger types, it depends on the type and operator. There's more to it than just finding someone to blame then g
157 Goldenshield : Still straying off topic here, he wouldn't have taken off with less fuel than required for the trip based on his release. I don't know the specific b
158 727forever : The perfect vehicle for this is a new concept, new in the last 3 years, called "Threat and Error Management." Prior to TEM training focused on never
159 Skaggs : Heres another video from a VR Cockpit
160 Skaggs : I just talked to my Dad (Retired DL 777 Capt) about this. He told me he damn near took off on a taxiway in a DC-9 years back. The Capt. taxied it whil
161 Gh123 : They can blame the controllers, pavers, lights etc. Whatever. At the end of the day it was the pilot's lack of attention to their external enviroment
162 2H4 : Gh123...nobody but yourself is still trying to blame (or excuse) the actions of the pilots. We have moved on, and are discussing the factors that led
163 David L : That's not the point! As 2H4 said, why did people make mistakes? We've already heard from experienced people that environmental factors may have cont
164 ATCGOD : This amazes me. He's got an excellent point. Is it possible that the crew had tunnel vision and was so convinced that they were on runway 22 that the
165 Skaggs : CNN is now reporting that they boarded the wrong airplane at 0515 and even started the APU before a ramp worker pointed out their mistake. I am REALLY
166 David L : Have you read the comments above about that?
167 Gh123 : Yes I have actually and one of them was almost turning onto runway 26 at KLEX because I WAS NOT PAYING ATTENTION. Luckily I noticed that it was the w
168 Post contains images Gh123 : This is what 22 looked like before it was re-paved the other weekend. FYI
169 Post contains images BMIFlyer : to everyone involved in this incident, and I hope the sole survivir makes a full recovery. Lee
170 ATCGOD : Much agreed.
171 David L : Now, if you'd said you'd never come close to turning on to 26 and no-one had mentioned a hint of confusion above, I'd have said "fair enough, what we
172 ATCGOD : According to MSNBC he'd doing better but still not out of the woods.
173 Gh123 : Lets hope that through what he can reveal from both his experience and mistakes last Sunday, together with what else we can learn about the crash, hu
174 Jonno : This may be a bit off topic, but what do the little red flags represent at the crash scene?
175 Aerobalance : We don't have all the facts, so let's be careful on what we theorize. Yet, When these 'factors' start to point out that said pilots... then what's nex
176 Hammer : Skaggs- Give it up man. Your re-creation of the CRJ crash is not that good. 1-your lining up on the centerline, I got motion sick watching you weave d
177 OPNLguy : Quite frankly, I think any animation at this point is pretty much useless eye-candy since they're all based upon assumptions. Someone could make an a
178 Hammer : Someone could make an animation showing the aircraft suddenly banking 90 degrees to avoid a 60-foot tall orange and green polka-dotted lizard, but tha
179 Post contains images 2H4 : Hmmm....sounds like our friend OPNL has been watching Fox news.... 2H4
180 Post contains images OPNLguy : If it was on Fox, it'd have been orange and green pinstripes...
181 Lowrider : I have made this mistake myself, while being stone sober at the time. On a dark ramp, facing multiple aircraft of an identical type, with identical p
182 Tangowhisky : I am not a pilot but I do know of SOPs and the levels of procedures that are embedded into the training and operations for flight crews. So my questio
183 FlyMatt2Bermud : I lost a friend on this flight, Charlie Lykins left a wife and two young children. The indisputable facts are the aircraft was not on the correct runw
184 727forever : It is quite easy to come out to a dark ramp with several airplanes sitting there and pick the wrong one. In the morning with first flight of the day
185 David L : I agree. I doubt there are many pilots who don't think this could ever happen to them. Mine too, of course, and sorry about your loss.
186 Skyway1 : Ahhhh...takes me back to my CSA days..... Thank you for your valuable and informative posts....
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