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HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190  
User currently offlineMrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1668 posts, RR: 50
Posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5382 times:

Deliveries to Hainan Airlines start in 2007.

The ERJ-145 will be produced by Embraer's chinese joint venture Harbin Embraer Aircraft Industry, the E190 will be produced in Brazil. Press release.

mrocktor

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8663 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5353 times:

Great to see HNA order the E-190. Hopefully more Chinese airlines will follow suit.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineCobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 1009 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5328 times:

What a big order. This really boost both plane 145 and 190

User currently offlineN754PR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5277 times:

Wow. Thats a huge order... some very happy people at Emb.

User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5277 times:

Interesting to see the chinese produce some ERJ 145s at a trickle, a plane which saw its sale plummet in the last two years and which seems at the end of its production cycle. I guess Continental Express or some others would be all too happy to sell some 2nd hand ERJ 145s to them but it's a prestige decision as well.

[Edited 2006-08-30 16:22:31]


nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineMrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1668 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5207 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
but it's a prestige decision as well

I'd say political, otherwise agreed.

mrocktor


User currently offlineRainmaker From Brazil, joined Jan 2006, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5111 times:

Hopefully the chinese airport operator get to regulate airport taxes and levies in a more suitable way for small jets operators. AFAIK taxes are not proportional to aircraft size making small jets overall economics very disadvantageous in mainland China.

User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 907 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5098 times:

Embraer better find ways to increases production or loose future orders to Bombardier who today have released their dried up backlog.

TW



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineLowecur From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 585 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5014 times:

Roctor:

This will certainly help to fill up delivery slots for the 190 well into 2008. What's ERJ doing to rectify production capacity in the next few years. Anticipated orders from NWA and DL in the coming year could be hurt if they can't give assurances on a viable delivery schedule. Also, I still believe WN is going to have discussions with pilots about the Ejets for the new TA next month.

Give us an update.


User currently onlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11418 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4894 times:
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Congratulations Embraer, nice order and it allows to keep ERJ145 line working for sometime as well as increase their backlog for the E-Jets.

I agree with some friends, Embraer need to find how to increase production in order to open new production slots. I believe they imagine it's just a good economic cycle, but it seems to take more time, and Embraer need to take advantage.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 36
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4842 times:

Their orderbook isn't actually THAT impressive, I checked the list on airlinerlist.com and it should be perfectly doable to get slots within 12 months or so. Blinded by the big Jetblue order you'd think there is a backlog of 1000s but all types combined, 170/175 have only 80 yet to be delivered against 140 built so far, and the 190/195 have 230 to be delivered against 40 built so far, not counted the Hainan order yet. Not bad, figures Canadair/Bombardier can only dream of, but not as spectacular as the 737 and A-320 families.


nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6122 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4773 times:

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 5):
I'd say political, otherwise agreed.

Yes, I agree. You might be interested in this article from the BBC about China and Brazil's growing economic ties...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4872522.stm

There is a short paragraph about EMB...

In Brazil itself, the view is very different. It is about two developing countries, the giants of their regions, forming a natural alliance.

"It's wonderful. It's amazing," says Alexandre Solis, an aircraft engineer who spent more than two years in the Chinese city of Harbin, setting up a joint venture for the ultra hi-tech Brazilian Embraer commuter jet company.

"They wanted all the information we could give them because they are determined to be best in the world."


There is also a link to an 11 minute video and it has a short segment on Harbin (around the 7:30 minute mark).

BTW, this was a double bad news day for BBD. BBD announced today that their 2nd Qtr. earnings dropped 50% vs a year ago.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
nice order and it allows to keep ERJ145 line working for sometime

See...

Quoting Mrocktor (Thread starter):
The ERJ-145 will be produced by Embraer's chinese joint venture Harbin Embraer Aircraft Industry



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineMrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1668 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4665 times:

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 8):
Anticipated orders from NWA and DL in the coming year could be hurt if they can't give assurances on a viable delivery schedule

Current backlog (from the www.embraer.com site):

E170 33
E175 3
E190 220 (+50 now)
E195 36 (I'd say -15 from the Swiss order)

A total of 277 firm orders, about 2 years worth of production at current delivery rates (glossing over the fact that the ~150 AC/year of the last years were a mix of 145 and E-jets).

I don't have any special information on the company's strategic planning (and wouldn't post if I did) but my guess is that the brazillian facilities will be almost totally converted to E-jet production, as the 145 family backlog is for all purposes zero. The production line will probably be kept open for the military and business variants of the plane only (about 3 frames per month?), plus the chinese line for their order(s) of course.

mrocktor


User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6122 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4599 times:

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 12):
Quoting Lowecur (Reply 8):
Anticipated orders from NWA and DL in the coming year could be hurt if they can't give assurances on a viable delivery schedule

It shouldn't be a problem. Don't forget that the 50 E190 deliveries for HNA are planned to start only in Dec 2007... 15 months from now. And back in April, EMB already announced plans to increase E190/195 production to 8/month by mid-2007. EMB had good foresight to have encouraged risk-sharing suppliers to set up local facilities. Sonaca has created a local subsidiary Sobraex. And EMB has taken control over wing manufacturing from KHI's at Kawasaki Aeronautica do Brasil based at Embraer’s Gaviao Peixoto plant.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineLowecur From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 585 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4559 times:

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 12):
A total of 277 firm orders, about 2 years worth of production at current delivery rates (glossing over the fact that the ~150 AC/year of the last years were a mix of 145 and E-jets).

I think Republic changed 25 of the 170s to 175s. There are also quite a few options that could be exercized at some pt.

I read somewhere that the Ejet is not a pure production line, but rather units are built in some sort of production box. Scaling the 145 to this type of production could take a major retrofit.


User currently offlineLowecur From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 585 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4538 times:

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 13):
It shouldn't be a problem. Don't forget that the 50 E190 deliveries for HNA are planned to start only in Dec 2007... 15 months from now. And back in April, EMB already announced plans to increase E190/195 production to 8/month by mid-2007. EMB had good foresight to have encouraged risk-sharing suppliers to set up local facilities. Sonaca has created a local subsidiary Sobraex. And EMB has taken control over wing manufacturing from KHI's at Kawasaki Aeronautica do Brasil based at Embraer’s Gaviao Peixoto plant.

I hope you're right. The company needs to be more proactive on facilities. I think they feel the production slots on any large American Order can be put off for 12 months(pilot training), and during that time they will do the retrofits to the former RJ facilities. This type of thinking cost them initial US Air orders on the 170 that went to BBD. Things are pretty tight right now, as AC has agreed to give up 190 production slots to Varig to help their investment.


User currently offlineMrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1668 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4354 times:

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 14):

I read somewhere that the Ejet is not a pure production line, but rather units are built in some sort of production box. Scaling the 145 to this type of production could take a major retrofit.

It's not a matter of scaling the 145 line to build E-jets, rather using the physical space and workforce previously engaged in 145 production to build E-jets. And yes, its a major change  Wink

mrocktor


User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3236 posts, RR: 32
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days ago) and read 4255 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 10):
Not bad, figures Canadair/Bombardier can only dream of, but not as spectacular as the 737 and A-320 families.

Unfortunately, high fuel prices has a lot to do with that. These days are not so good for regional jets compared to late 1990s.



R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2946 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4172 times:

Quoting Rainmaker (Reply 6):
AFAIK taxes are not proportional to aircraft size making small jets overall economics very disadvantageous in mainland China.

Actually, that rules applies to China and most of Asia in general. An RJ is classified as a jet thus the higher user fee bracket. Of course, there are gross weight brackets but not very proportional, so that's the reason you don't see a lot of RJs in East Asia.

Perhaps China is getting little more relaxed about user fees in the lightweight jet range but ATC will continually have to attain efficiency as traffic is booming. With China it may not be the lack of runways but ATC procedures that become gridlocked first.


User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 657 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4061 times:

I guess this means that the Chinese ARJ is dead. That is pretty much the exact same size as the ERJ-190.

User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4034 times:

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 12):
Current backlog (from the www.embraer.com site):

E170 33
E175 3
E190 220 (+50 now)
E195 36 (I'd say -15 from the Swiss order)

Didn't know the market shows such a clear preference for the E190 compared to the other versions. Obviously the best compromise between CASM, range and capasity.

There isn't much competition in the 100 seat segment, Embraer is king of the hill.

http://www.achorizons.ca/gallery/2004/january/embraer_190_1024.jpg


User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 907 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3934 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 20):
Embraer is king of the hill.

And Embraer is now entering into the large business jet market with the E-190 (Lineage 1000). This plane is bigger and wider than a Bombardier Global Express and G550, but only has 4200 nm range versus 6500 nm of the G550 and GXRS. I wonder if Embraer is thinking of putting in an all new wing on the 190 for a true business jet version with 7000 nm or more? I hear Gulfstream are secretely working on an new plane as well. All this is not good for Bombardier as they are being threatenned by Embraer haevily in the RJ market, and now more competition in the business jet market.



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6122 posts, RR: 34
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3680 times:

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 21):
I wonder if Embraer is thinking of putting in an all new wing on the 190 for a true business jet version with 7000 nm or more?

Curious, why do you think that the Lineage isn't a "true" business jet? BTW, the very long range market is actually quite small. The development of the GX was really an "ego" move on the part of BBD to "one-up" the GIV. And then Gulfstream responded with the GV. Furthermore, BBD ended up having to shrink the GX and reduce its range to compete with Gulfstream's G400/500 lineup. It is quite indicative of the small size of the market niche that Dassault didn't even bother to match the GX's range with their all-new 7X.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 907 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3662 times:

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 22):
Curious, why do you think that the Lineage isn't a "true" business jet? BTW, the very long range market is actually quite small. The development of the GX was really an "ego" move on the part of BBD to "one-up" the GIV. And then Gulfstream responded with the GV. Furthermore, BBD ended up having to shrink the GX and reduce its range to compete with Gulfstream's G400/500 lineup. It is quite indicative of the small size of the market niche that Dassault didn't even bother to match the GX's range with their all-new 7X.

Planemaker, I agree with what you are saying and that the bigger pie is in the mid size, widebody long range (not the ultra long range). However, a plane in that size is comfortable to go longer distances, and more range will help sales in that market segment. Boeing's push on the 777-200LR, 737-800ER and -900ER for more range are confirmation that there is a need for more and more non-stop: commercial or corporate aviation needs. Bombardier GXRS sales are still strong as ever despite shrinking this model and making the GX 5000 (this is another market and more sales). However, Embraer has the ability to quickly engineer things and along with their lower development costs, I believe that they are on the path with the desire to out-do Bombardier.



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineLowecur From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 585 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3653 times:

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 21):
I wonder if Embraer is thinking of putting in an all new wing on the 190 for a true business jet version with 7000 nm or more?

If they can gain that kind of range with a new wing, why not bring it on the commercial end? Hasn't the 737 been tweaked over the years with NG engines and wing design to increase range? It sure sounds doable as technology continues to improve.

[Edited 2006-08-31 17:59:44]

25 Planemaker : There isn't any correlation between commercial aviation and business aviation. And the 737ER models are just to guarantee transcontinental flights in
26 Tangowhisky : I agree with you. Operators such as MaxJet and PrivatAir can use a plane like that in thinner high yield markets. Today they are operating between la
27 Post contains images PPVRA : Well over time Embraer has introduced many updates to the ERJs, which have improved performance, so I am sure they will do the same for the E-Jets (+
28 DEVILFISH : If this is all that easily accomplished, I wonder why Embraer has not come up with a long-range E170 business jet instead of the Lineage? Being small
29 Post contains images We're Nuts :
30 Tangowhisky : The 170 has similar range as an airliner to the 190 (approx 2200 nm at design payload). I believe Embraer chose the 190 as the Lineage 1000 over the
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