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AA RDU-LGW Back To 777 At The End Of October  
User currently offlineDank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 914 posts, RR: 15
Posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 10453 times:

It looks like AA is going back to the 777 on the RDU-LGW route starting at the end of October (and keeping the second DFW-LGW flight on a 763). I assume they really route the 777s RDU-LGW-DFW and DFW-LGW-RDU?

cheers.

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 10397 times:

Could this be the SJC-NRT 777 availability being reassigned?


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2450 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 10391 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
Could this be the SJC-NRT 777 availability being reassigned?

It does seem a bit excessive using a 777 on such a route to me.


User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4149 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10363 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 2):
It does seem a bit excessive using a 777 on such a route to me.

especially coming after the typical 'high season' on such a route!

Chris in NH


User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10337 times:

The reason is because AA was unable to find a way to upgrade DFW-LGW to 2x 777s without making RDU-LGW a 772. The original plan was taking the 777 from DFW-KIX and making the 2nd daily DFW-LGW flight a 772. However, this posed a problem, because it meant no way to get the 763 positioned for RDU-LGW. So AA then planned to have DFW-LGW operated with a 763 on Mondays only, which would then rotate exclusively between RDU and LGW for one week at a time. This prooved to be too complicated, especially with crew issues.


a.
User currently offlineDank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 914 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10326 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
Could this be the SJC-NRT 777 availability being reassigned?

I think that it is a reassignment of a 777 out of DFW. They drop the DFW-KIX flight on the 27th of October, which I believe is right when RDU-LGW switches back to a 777 (looking at the arrival/departure times in London, plus the longer stretch from Dallas, makes me assume that they share aircraft with the DFW flight, allowing them to rotate aircraft since RDU doesn't see any other 777s (or 767s when it is a 767, either, I believe).

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 3):
Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 2):It does seem a bit excessive using a 777 on such a route to me.
especially coming after the typical 'high season' on such a route!

Chris in NH

I actually think that summer really is the low season on this route as O+D (and AA feels that the 777 could be used on a more in demand tourist route). There is a lot of triangle area-London business travel on this route, and I would assume late summer is lighter in that regard.

I know that a bunch of the pharmaceuticals (GSK in paritcular) guarantee business class seats on this flight. What about first? I only ask since this is one advantage of the AA 772s over the 763s...

Personally, I would rather have the 777 on this route, but that doesn'tnecessarilly make it good business sense  Wink.

This route is convenient for me. A nonstop flight, short check in and security. The whole customs and rechecking your bags even though you are ending up in Raleigh is a bit of a drag. Hopefully, the redone terminal will fix this.

cheers.


User currently offlineDank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 914 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10320 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
The reason is because AA was unable to find a way to upgrade DFW-LGW to 2x 777s without making RDU-LGW a 772. The original plan was taking the 777 from DFW-KIX and making the 2nd daily DFW-LGW flight a 772. However, this posed a problem, because it meant no way to get the 763 positioned for RDU-LGW. So AA then planned to have DFW-LGW operated with a 763 on Mondays only, which would then rotate exclusively between RDU and LGW for one week at a time. This prooved to be too complicated, especially with crew issues.

Thanks a bunch for your reply. Good to see that I was a bit on track with my guess. Works out better for me  Smile.

cheers.


User currently offlineAvion346 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 184 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10194 times:

Quoting Dank (Reply 5):
know that a bunch of the pharmaceuticals (GSK in paritcular) guarantee business class seats on this flight. What about first? I only ask since this is one advantage of the AA 772s over the 763s...

You hit the nail on the head...GlaxoSmithKline and others are the main reason for this route in general, let alone the business/first demand. They are definitely a premium customer for AA in RDU.


User currently offlineCOERJ From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10069 times:

How do the loads do on this flight? Beside the Business Class demand, how is first and coach doing. Is there alot of O/D? Any connecting flights, as RDU can be considered a small focus city for AA.

User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5434 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10053 times:

Quoting Dank (Reply 5):
I know that a bunch of the pharmaceuticals (GSK in paritcular) guarantee business class seats on this flight. What about first? I only ask since this is one advantage of the AA 772s over the 763s...



Quoting Avion346 (Reply 7):
You hit the nail on the head...GlaxoSmithKline and others are the main reason for this route in general, let alone the business/first demand. They are definitely a premium customer for AA in RDU.

Correct, that's the only reason. There's no market reason other than those large pharma companies that obviously have a deal with AA on this route.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineSean-SAN- From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 771 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10037 times:

Don't forget AA also uses this as an AAdvantage relief valve... it's an easy way to get alot of people who want to use AA miles to London... which keeps ORD and DFW flights more open for revenue pax.

User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10015 times:

Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 10):
Don't forget AA also uses this as an AAdvantage relief valve... it's an easy way to get alot of people who want to use AA miles to London... which keeps ORD and DFW flights more open for revenue pax.

Yes. During the winter, some days they get as many as 50-60 MIA-originating passengers on this flight.



a.
User currently offlineDank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 914 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9976 times:

Quoting COERJ (Reply 8):
How do the loads do on this flight? Beside the Business Class demand, how is first and coach doing. Is there alot of O/D? Any connecting flights, as RDU can be considered a small focus city for AA.

When I've been on it, the loads weren't great in Y. And the great advantage of 2-5-2 seating has given me 2 1/2 seats to myself for coach fare  Smile.

Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 10):
Don't forget AA also uses this as an AAdvantage relief valve... it's an easy way to get alot of people who want to use AA miles to London... which keeps ORD and DFW flights more open for revenue pax.

 checkmark  I've been on flights from RDU to ORD on AA with connecting pax from LGW. They only get feed on the RDU end, I imagine, as this flight is not code shared by BA (but for some reason, I think it may have been at one time or was this route operated by BA before?).

cheers.


User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9953 times:

Quoting Dank (Reply 12):
I've been on flights from RDU to ORD on AA with connecting pax from LGW. They only get feed on the RDU end, I imagine, as this flight is not code shared by BA (but for some reason, I think it may have been at one time or was this route operated by BA before?).

BA and AA cannot codeshare on US-London flights.

On a side note, there is more connecting traffic at RDU on AA than most people think. One-third of American Eagle's RDU passengers are connecting. The majority between Miami and the Northeast, even though AA offers extensive Miami-Northeast non-stop service.



a.
User currently offlineDank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 914 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9939 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
BA and AA cannot codeshare on US-London flights.

thanks.

cheers.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5562 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9886 times:

Quoting COERJ (Reply 8):
How do the loads do on this flight?

This doesn't give a class breakdown, but the British CAA gives the following pax counts:

2006
Month / Pax / Change from 2005
January 7,166 down 8%
February 5,576 down 6%
March 9,423 down 8%
April 10,353 up 3%
May 10,986 up 7%
June 12,132 up 3%
July 11,509 up 4%

If you assume a 245 pax 777, the load factor varies from 40.6% in Feb to 82.5% in June.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9789 times:

Would AA ever consider doing a DFW-RDU-LGW (with DFW-RDU effectively to position an aircraft to RDU) or would that be more complicated than it sounds?


Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11840 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9690 times:

Quoting Humberside (Reply 16):
Would AA ever consider doing a DFW-RDU-LGW (with DFW-RDU effectively to position an aircraft to RDU) or would that be more complicated than it sounds?

Indeed, that schedule was used for several years in ~1998-2000 period, when RDU-LGW was being flown with 3-class 767-200s. The plane would fly LAX-DFW-RDU with a single flight number, and then it would fly RDU-LGW with a different flight number. It would then turn around the next day at LGW and do the reverse. However, once the route shifted to a 767-300 (then 3-class), and then ultimately the 777, they started routing the plane over LGW as part of the DFW-LGW schedule.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8458 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9658 times:
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AA use to fly RDU-CDG, this route must print money from the pharma companies if not AA would have killed it years ago.

User currently offlineNcflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 492 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9644 times:

An airline isn't in business to offer a flight as an AAdvantage relief valve. There is no constitutional requirement that AA or any airline offer free seats on any flight or to any destination (unfortunately). It may serve that purpose because RDU is too small to support such a large plane, but AA isn't flying such a large plane on the route unless there is a solid business reason.

User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5434 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9545 times:

Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 19):
An airline isn't in business to offer a flight as an AAdvantage relief valve. There is no constitutional requirement that AA or any airline offer free seats on any flight or to any destination (unfortunately). It may serve that purpose because RDU is too small to support such a large plane, but AA isn't flying such a large plane on the route unless there is a solid business reason.

Yes, the fact that some pax are using the RDU flight for FF seats is not good news for AA ... the load factors for paying pax are obviously much lower than the MIA/DFW flights. Personally I'd like to see the real margins on this flight (but we never will of course), and understand how profitable (or not) this route really is. In my opinion the real figures might not be as bright as some might want to believe.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineGman3 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 290 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9534 times:

I have always wanted to know where the FAs are based who do that trip. Does AA have a small base in RDU for that trip or is it assigned to other bases?

User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11840 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9507 times:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 20):
Yes, the fact that some pax are using the RDU flight for FF seats is not good news for AA

On the contrary, Raleigh/Durham-Gatwick serves its purpose perfectly. First off, the flight is profitable -- regardless of passenger sales or frequent flyer redemption, because large pharma companies based in the Research Triangle and/or the Greater London area (namely, GSK, etc.) basically subsidize the flight as a corporate shuttle and guarantee a level of front-end traffic to keep the plane flying every day. Secondly, by flying this flight, and using it for frequent flyer redemption, American is able to take pressure of other flights, namely Miami-Heathrow, and thus free up seats on that daily 777 flight for higher-yielding revenue traffic.

Quoting Gman3 (Reply 21):
I have always wanted to know where the FAs are based who do that trip. Does AA have a small base in RDU for that trip or is it assigned to other bases?

Yes. AA has a small flight attendant base in Raleigh/Durham that handles only this single daily flight.


User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9478 times:

Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 19):
An airline isn't in business to offer a flight as an AAdvantage relief valve.

Incorrect. Airlines often offer such flights as a relief valve and effective increases yield and profit on other routes. Offering a "loss leader" can sometimes increase profits on other routes to the same destination that the airline makes more money with the loss leader. A good example is AA's Dallas-Buenos Aires flight, whose primary purpose is to divert lower yielding traffic away from Miami and JFK. The flight makes a marginal profit, but it drives up JFK/MIA yields significantly.



a.
User currently offlineDank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 914 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9436 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
On the contrary, Raleigh/Durham-Gatwick serves its purpose perfectly. First off, the flight is profitable -- regardless of passenger sales or frequent flyer redemption, because large pharma companies based in the Research Triangle and/or the Greater London area (namely, GSK, etc.) basically subsidize the flight as a corporate shuttle and guarantee a level of front-end traffic to keep the plane flying every day. Secondly, by flying this flight, and using it for frequent flyer redemption, American is able to take pressure of other flights, namely Miami-Heathrow, and thus free up seats on that daily 777 flight for higher-yielding revenue traffic.

 checkmark  I would also assume that it encourages that GSK, etc. will continue to use AA for other flights since it won't open up competition for domestic service to other airlines that provide one stop service to the London area. And as you said, it helps increase yields on other London flights. It's important to note that it isn't just FF awards that get routed through RDU, but also cheaper airfare itineraries. For example, one couple I sat next to on an RDU-ORD flight were not traveling ORD-LON-ORD on an award but it was cheaper for them to fly through RDU. Does anybody know how the first/business fares differ for ORD-LHR from RDU-LGW?

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
Yes. AA has a small flight attendant base in Raleigh/Durham that handles only this single daily flight.

I assume that the pilots are DFW based, though, right?

cheers.


25 Gilesdavies : Anyone know the load factors on the LGW-RDU route? From what I have read in previous threads you can get a very comfy ride on this flight in Y and reg
26 MAH4546 : The most expensive F fare, with zero restrictions, for AA's London flights are: LAX-LHR: $14,054 MIA-LHR: $11,963 ORD-LHR: $11,663 BOS-LHR: $11,545 J
27 FlyPIJets : I'm confused. A quick check (date in Nov and Dec) of AA.com and the second (AA78/79) DFW-LGW shows as a 763. So if the point was to make DFW-LGW all
28 MAH4546 : They can't make DFW-LGW all-777 without making RDU-LGW a 777. However, if they make RDU-LGW a 777, then they can't make DFW-LGW all-777. They only ha
29 Dank : The way I see it is that DFW-LGW is 1 772 and 1 763. During the summer RDU-LGW was a 763 (but it was a 777 in the past). Because RDU sees neither a 7
30 MAH4546 : No, they aren't.
31 FlyPIJets : Yeah, I step away from the computer a second and I get the problem. D-oh. But, in some vague way, it does seem like AA could choose to send either a
32 MAH4546 : Combo of both. Fleet availability is the primary reason, as it best utilizes a 777. The fact that RDU-LGW promises premium and cargor revenue is anot
33 AJMIA : Why don't they add a second daily MIA-LHR flight. We send sooo many people to LHR via RDU, JFK, BOS and ORD. I really think MIA could support the fli
34 Commavia : They tried a double-daily MIA-LHR schedule. It eroded yields on the route. The schedule they have now, with a single daily flight and a second flight
35 BigGSFO : MIA-LHR operates non-stop twice on Saturdays - which I never really understood why only on Saturday. Perhaps an aircraft allocation or scheduling iss
36 MAH4546 : AA 56/57 is AA's second most profitable trans-Atlantic flight. They run a second frequency on Saturdays year-round and, during the winter, on Sundays
37 BigGSFO : Thanks. What's #1?
38 MAH4546 : ORD-MAN, believe it or not.
39 FLFlyGuy : My understanding is that the committments from GSK for business/first seats pay for the RDU-LGW flight. Anything we can book into Y is added gravy.
40 Bnamaxx : They're dropping this again? Is this seasonal or permanent? How many times does this make, twice at least.
41 Dank : I believe that this is the second time, but it wasn't dropped the first time for seasonality. I think they started the route initially in the late 90
42 2travel2know : If LGW-RDU is within a B757 range, Would AA ever consider flying that aircraft on that route?
43 Gigneil : A 757 wouldn't be able to offer the premium service the route demands without a subfleet. N
44 Dank : Correct. I believe that they use the domestic configured 757s for MAN and Ireland 757 services. Add in the cargo benefits to running a widebody on th
45 MAH4546 : Not for long. Both Europe 757 routes - BOS-SNN and BOS-MAN - are being discontinued.
46 Jfk777 : The problem with some MIA-LHR-MIA was the time. MIA-LHR is fine. The second flight was earlier at 8:00am from LHR getting to MIA at 12:00 noon, too ea
47 Bond007 : I guess my question is...do we know this for a fact? How profitable is this route ... all things considered (crew positioning, maintenance, FA bases,
48 Commavia : Yes. As has been discussed at length many times here on A.net, AA doesn't stick around in any markets -- particularly international -- if they are no
49 Fbm3rd : Why did AA stop MIA-LGW? I flew this back in summer 1998... FM III
50 Commavia : Same reason they stopped BOS-LGW around the same time period. High volume, very low yield. The plane went out mostly full, but with cheap tickets, an
51 Post contains images AJMIA : 100% There are no sacred cows anymore. Even the most prestegious routes will be dropped if there is a better alternative market for the plane. Many r
52 Post contains images Bond007 : Oh, you mean "Running an airline 101" With average operating margins at AA running at around 8% (was 2% or lower Q1), I assume there are as many rout
53 Dank : Sorry to get statistical here, but that isn't necessarilly true. It may be, but it may not be (we'd need more data). If the median operating margin b
54 Post contains images Bond007 : No, but probably....I'll await the probability theory The figures I was quoting was total margins for AA mainline ! (I think), 1Q06 and 2Q06, but let
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