Pe@rson From United Kingdom (England), joined Jan 2001, 16754 posts, RR: 58 Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4491 times:
Why does Go fly expensive regional jets on such short routes when 50-seat 'props, such as the DH3 or AT4, or 70-odd seat jobs, such as the AT7 or DH4, would be far more suited to the operation - and far more cost-effective? Or is it the American dislike of anything but jets?
FCYTravis From United States, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 9 Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4202 times:
So what are HA and AQ's interisland load factors like in comparison? These numbers are meaningless unless we have a benchmark of what's good and what's bad for the interisland market right now.
Where's HA and AQ data?
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
ATWZW170 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 878 posts, RR: 4 Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4180 times:
I don't think anyone had any faith that this would work. JO is looking for a place for planes that I don't believe had homes...did he order any new planes for this or were they from US system? He is grasping right now, UA is not happy, DL is not happy, and US/HP is not happy. There is a reason Republic is growing so fast - airlines don't want a crappy operation like Mesa but want lower costs - so they go for the middle ground - Republic.
Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
Sorry, I can't help myself...I've got to say this (again):
"Sure we lose money on every flight, but we'll make it up on volume!"
Thanks. I feel better.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
MEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 3430 posts, RR: 47 Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4045 times:
Well the consumer will loose as well when Go! folds and AQ and HA rush to coordinate a price hike and the typical one way flight is in the $150 region again.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
SpruceMoose From United States, joined Jan 2006, 102 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3987 times:
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9): Sorry, I can't help myself...I've got to say this (again):
"Sure we lose money on every flight, but we'll make it up on volume!"
That's what the 90-seaters are for
-SpruceMoose
[edit to add smiley]
[Edited 2006-09-08 02:10:08]
It flew at an altitude of six feet for a distance of four and a half feet. Then we discovered rain makes it catch fire.
Aloha73G From United States, joined Jul 2003, 2134 posts, RR: 6 Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3987 times:
Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 10): Well the consumer will loose as well when Go! folds and AQ and HA rush to coordinate a price hike and the typical one way flight is in the $150 region again.
1. Prior to go! the "typical one-way price" was NOT $150, it was between $65 and $85 depending on time of year.
2. People should be willing to pay "cost-plus" for services (the cost of providing the service, plus reasonable profit). go! does NOT have lower costs than HA or AQ, so their "low" prices are "unreasonable" in the market place.
At the pre-go! prices AQ and HA were breaking even or a little better on interisland....whats wrong with that? go! is pricing in a predatory manner in an effort to destroy the competition so THEY (go!) can raise the prices....whats so great about that?
-Aloha!
[Edited 2006-09-08 02:03:23]
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
We're Nuts From United States, joined Jun 2000, 5705 posts, RR: 31 Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3974 times:
go! is trying to stimulate a stagnant market. The "Southwest Effect" is a proven theory that has worked over and over again. go! isn't taking HA and AQ's passengers, it's creating new ones.
Aloha73G From United States, joined Jul 2003, 2134 posts, RR: 6 Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3916 times:
Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 13): go! is trying to stimulate a stagnant market. The "Southwest Effect" is a proven theory that has worked over and over again. go! isn't taking HA and AQ's passengers, it's creating new ones.
Except that the "Southwest Effect" generally only applies to markets that are underserved, and interisland routes are NOT underserved with between 20-40 daily roundtrip flights in each market (from HNL) on AQ and HA alone.
Low prices stimulate some demand, but it is short term, (As AQ and HA executives predicted) and will not last. Plus, what good is it to carry more passengers if EVERYONE is going to lose money???
-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
Blsbls99 From United States, joined Sep 2004, 345 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3701 times:
So, what was Aloha's or Hawaiian's interisland load factors for the same months??? I think that is very relevant for anyone to make useful comments.
And, as discussed on so many other treads, load factor doesn't ensure profitability. However, low load factors sure don't help when it comes to increasing revenues.
Hawaiian717 From United States, joined May 1999, 3013 posts, RR: 14 Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3681 times:
Hawaiian hasn't posted August on their web site yet, but their load factors in July 2006 was 89.2% for scheduled flights, 91.9% for charter flights, for a total of 89.3%. They don't break up interisland and long-haul flying so that makes it hard to compare. Aloha being privately held can be hard to get info out of, I don't see anything recently posted on their press releases page.
AirWillie6475 From United States, joined Jan 2005, 2447 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3662 times:
Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 14): Low prices stimulate some demand, but it is short term, (As SA)">AQ and SA)">HA executives predicted) and will not last. Plus, what good is it to carry more passengers if EVERYONE is going to lose money???
People will fly the cheaper airline it doesn't matter if it's SA)">AQ or SA)">HA or Go. I think money is more important than going with the home airline just so you can support them. The fact is that MESA has a lot of money and they can take the hit. Sooner or later if they haven't already, SA)">AQ or SA)">HA will give. It's unfortunate but it's a free market. Also as far as the bigger aircraft MESA wants to add, it's not necessarily about MORE pax it's about efficient aircraft. CRJ200 only fleet is a proven killer for startups, not only for Indy but other airlines around the world, like Styrian for example.
Yes, summer is ending now. But those numbers were from the middle of the busiest time of the year. To have a 64.5% LF in August??? That tells me the product simply isn't selling.
HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
Searpqx From United States, joined Jun 2000, 4331 posts, RR: 29 Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3554 times:
Quoting HAL (Reply 20): Yes, summer is ending now. But those numbers were from the middle of the busiest time of the year. To have a 64.5% LF in August??? That tells me the product simply isn't selling.
I tend to agree with you, but was Go adding aircraft during that period? More capacity would account for a drop as well. Still leads to some bad conclusions no matter what the reason tho.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
AirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3531 times:
Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 19): Also as far as the bigger aircraft MESA wants to add, it's not necessarily about MORE pax it's about efficient aircraft. CRJ200 only fleet is a proven killer for startups
I think that's what they mean by the CR9. I think it's more efficient than the CRJ-200, but correct me if I'm wrong. It was built for short routes like that though, unlike many RJ flights today that are anything but regional. Their fares are probably too low, but with larger, more efficient aircraft, they may be sustainable.
Ha763 From United States, joined Jan 2003, 2802 posts, RR: 8 Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3496 times:
Quoting Blsbls99 (Reply 17): So, what was Aloha's or Hawaiian's interisland load factors for the same months??? I think that is very relevant for anyone to make useful comments.
I can only estimate Hawaiian load factor since Aloha is a privately held company and doesn't publish their numbers regularily. Since Hawaiian had a combined scheduled flight load factor of 87% for June and 89% for July, and the fact that most of their flights are interisland, their interisland load factor would be in the low 90% range. The August numbers probably will not be out until next week.
Quoting HAL (Reply 20): To have a 64.5% LF in August??? That tells me the product simply isn't selling.
The extremely low load factor for a peak travel period is probably due to the fact that the majority of their pax seem to be local Hawaii residents. Public schools started in July with private schools and UH starting in the middle of August. They are failing to attract the largest and important group of pax, the tourists. Sure, local residents are important, but it is the tourists that have kept the interisland market going.
Quoting Searpqx (Reply 21): but was Go adding aircraft during that period?
No, they had the same amount of aircraft in August, as they had in July, 5. They just brought over a 6th one a couple of days ago.
WRONG! I will support a hometown airline anyday. Especially if it's ALOHA!
Price doesn't matter to me when it comes to the end result of supporting your home turf.
GO can just GO AWAY! They should have a "GO"-ing away fare sale.
Now with summer over and inter-island flying stalls a little before the holidays, I wonder what the load factors for GO will be in September, October, November....30%? 40%? 50%?
HAL From United States, joined Jan 2002, 1791 posts, RR: 50 Reply 25, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3469 times:
Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 19): Also as far as the bigger aircraft MESA wants to add, it's not necessarily about MORE pax it's about efficient aircraft.
Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 22): I think that's what they mean by the CR9. I think it's more efficient than the CRJ-200, but correct me if I'm wrong. It was built for short routes like that though, unlike many RJ flights today that are anything but regional. Their fares are probably too low, but with larger, more efficient aircraft, they may be sustainable.
Yes, the CRJ900 is more efficient - if the Load Factors are equal. For the 900 though, that means putting more people on each flight, and that is where Go! is having a problem! They simply aren't attracting more people. On a dollar-per-mile basis, the 900 will cost more to run. If you can't put any more people on it than on a 200, you will just sink into red ink that much faster.
HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
26 JetBlueAtJFK: With Independence's old aircrafts too. Those planes are going through some light flying the past couple of years. B6jfk
27 SeeTheWorld: As stated by others, your above comments don't really resonate. First of all, adding a larger aircraft that has lower unit costs doesn't help you if
28 SeeTheWorld: It certainly seems to me with all of Mesa's problems on the mainland, that there is a better way to piss away $1 million per month, regardless of whe
29 Evan767: Sorry, but August is typically low season for Hawaii. That is why We're Nuts said "Summer is ending...". He's simply stating that the low season is g
30 UA_727: Great - another of Aloha's Go!-bashing threads. Seriously though, something needs to be clarified. The Southwest Effect is in part about what We'reNu
31 Aloha73G: Wrong. Hawai'i's "High Season" is summer (Memorial Day-Labor Day). For example, Dec 15-Jan 15 is pretty busy, but the 1st half of December is very we
32 Aloha73G: I think the key point is that there are not very many "extra" passengers to be created. the market was NOT over priced before go!'s arrival (contrary
33 EmSeeEye: I guess you can call those old Indy RJ's the Dirty Dozen. They definatly have become the bastard children of the airline industry!
34 Burnsie28: The Southwest effect is starting to fail, its a temporary high, I-Air sure proved that.... Legacy's are gaining their ground again.
35 SeeTheWorld: The fact is a market can always be stimulated with lower fares, however, the question is just how much can it be stimulated? If it is underserved and
36 Flyibaby: If they are trying to stimulate the market, then lets wait and see if Mesa is the first airline to put the CRJ-200 in cargo retrofit and try and fly C
37 Caspian27: I sure wish sometimes that we could just wait for things to happen instead of talking numerous hypothetical scenerios based on someones's pre-bias. C2
38 SeeTheWorld: Really? This isn't the news, it's a blog. People express points of views, have spirited debates, and throughout the process everyone's thinking is ch
39 Blsbls99: Actually, mid August is when the summer tourist business starts to slow down, as some of the mainland schools start back about that time (I worked for
40 Evan767: OK.... Whatever you say... My family always wants to non-rev to Hawaii. However, we can't EVER get there in the winter. The flights are packed to the
41 Aloha73G: From the HVCB (Hawaii Visitors & Convention Burueau): Domestic Visitor Arrivals for 2005 by Month: Jan: 385,107 Feb: 403,552 Mar: 480,329 Apr: 380,26
42 Aloha73G: I also thought I should add that in the summer the number of available seats is much larger than in the winter as airlines add flight and use larger e
43 We're Nuts: That's good to hear, since it took them 35 years to do it.
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