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AA:why No 777s To France?  
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2671 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10590 times:

I was wondering why AA does not send its 777s to France and if they intend to do so.
Thanks


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTUGMASTER From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Jul 2004, 688 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10524 times:

LY777

Basically.....commonality.......

Crew's can fly anything.....
Equipment swaps are easy....
Spare part inventory....

and finally.... it's only France....(just joking)

rgds

TUGMASTER


User currently offlineBartond From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 789 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10506 times:

I believe that a few years ago AA decided to choose Frankfurt and LGW/LHR as its three airports to which it would send 777's. Places like ZRH, MAN, and BRU were all designated as 763 destinations. Something to do with ease of logistics although LGW and FRA both get 763's from different locations, too. I believe the ORD-FRA flight on AA is with a 763 and they switch in a 763 on one of the daily DFW-LGW flights at certain times of the year, too.

I remember not too long ago when AA sent a 777 to CDG but it has been a while - now it's just 763's.


User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10448 times:

Now that AA's 763s operate in a two-class format, the 777s are reserved for routes with the most premium traffic. Generally speaking, there is not as much premium traffic on AA's routes to CDG as there are to London and Frankfurt, hence the lack of 777s. This, plus the desire for fleet commonality on a per-destination basis, drives the decision. Of course, AA does have one 763 on the DFW-LGW route, but I wish they'd take it off and add another 777!


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30613 posts, RR: 84
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10433 times:
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Like UA, AA's service to CDG is pretty much pure O&D demand. So, as noted, mostly like it is a mix of insufficient overall traffic and not enough First Class traffic to justify tasking a 777 to the route.

User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2671 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10307 times:

And yet, AF uses 772s and 77W to the USA which have both first class!!!So, why doesn't AA compete with AF?I mean AF Biz Class(especially the new one)is far better than AA Biz Class, why doesn't AA react?


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30613 posts, RR: 84
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10297 times:
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Quoting LY777 (Reply 5):
And yet, AF uses 772s and 77W to the USA which have both first class!!!

It helps that CDG is AF's hub and therefore has both plenty of O&D as well as connecting traffic which helps fill the plane in all three classes.

Quoting LY777 (Reply 5):
I mean AF Biz Class(especially the new one)is far better than AA Biz Class, why doesn't AA react?

AA is reacting. They have started installing a new Business Class, starting with their 763 fleet which does service CDG.


User currently offlineB777A340Fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10217 times:

I assume pure supply & demand economics. Why should AA send over a 777 when the demand isn't there and when a 767 is enough?

User currently offlineBigJimFX From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10104 times:

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 9):
I assume pure supply & demand economics. Why should AA send over a 777 when the demand isn't there and when a 767 is enough?

IMO their kicking AA (LOL couldn't resist) dead horse by beating on DL. Let them keep ruining themselves by not using economical practices.

BTW I'm not a fan of AA but they are pretty good at taking out competitors. It will probably bite them on the a** someday... But not today



I'd like to thank me for flying Me Airways...
User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2176 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10071 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 5):
And yet, AF uses 772s and 77W to the USA which have both first class!!!

And also 744s and 340s and 330s (SFO, MIA, CVG, DTW, PHL, EWR, BOS, ORD, +?) with lower business seats /economy seats ratios, and no first class. Depends on the market served by the route.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9081 times:

I agree the 777's are needed for that premium service. How many 763ER will have the new interior by next year?

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11439 posts, RR: 61
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8935 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I was wondering why AA does not send its 777s to France and if they intend to do so.

AA pulled their 777s out of the Paris market for three reasons:

1) The market was not sufficiently premium enough to justify AA's most premium aircraft, the 3-class FJY 777. AA felt that two-class 767s were better suited to the market.

2) AA was trying to simplify its foreign outstations by reducing the number of aircraft the aircraft got. Thus, LHR went all 777 and CDG went all 767.

3) AA simply didn't have enough 777s to go around. AA has some extras now because of the ending of the SJC-NRT and DFW-KIX routes, but those are going to be put to very good [profitable] use this winter on MIA-EZE, and AA hopes to have them flying on DFW-PEK next year.

As to AA's long-term intentions, there was a rumor a few years back that AA was looking at putting 777s back on the two flights they had them on back in summer '02, namely 48/49 DFW-CDG and 44/45 JFK-CDG. I personally think that these two routes, of all of AA's flights to Paris, could probably support the more premium cabin mix and upgraded capacity of the 777, but alas, that's just me. Nonetheless, Paris won't be getting 777s anytime soon as AA doesn't have 777 capacity to spare and definitely doesn't have a plane for either route right now. Maybe next decade when AA takes delivery of more 777s.

(Completely unrelated sidenote: but I also think MIA-MAD could probably support the 777, now with Iberia's pull-down on the route.)

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 13):
How many 763ER will have the new interior by next year?

The first 767s to be getting the mod work done, besides the single plane already fitted with the new cabin, probably won't be until the late winter or early spring (I'm guessing February-March-April timeframe). They want to fly this single 767 around the system, a variety of markets, cities, routes, ranges, etc., to see how it performs and how people -- FAs, maintenance, customers, etc. -- like it. Then they'll roll it out on the rest of the 767-300s starting in the spring, with the 777s slated to get theirs starting in fall 2007 and be done by mid-2008.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8856 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
3) AA simply didn't have enough 777s to go around. AA has some extras now because of the ending of the SJC-NRT and DFW-KIX routes, but those are going to be put to very good [profitable] use this winter on MIA-EZE, and AA hopes to have them flying on DFW-PEK next year.

they usually get some extra 777's during the winter as they cut their LAX-LHR, ORD-LHR and possibly JFK-LHR by one flight during the winter...

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):

(Completely unrelated sidenote: but I also think MIA-MAD could probably support the 777, now with Iberia's pull-down on the route.)

 checkmark 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32620 posts, RR: 72
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8790 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):

they usually get some extra 777's during the winter as they cut their LAX-LHR, ORD-LHR and possibly JFK-LHR by one flight during the winter...

JFK-LHR is only cut by a Sunday flight that moves to MIA, but, yes, LAX/ORD-LHR lose a flight each.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
(Completely unrelated sidenote: but I also think MIA-MAD could probably support the 777, now with Iberia's pull-down on the
route.)

Agreed, but Iberia pulled back up slightly, with MIA-MAD at 11x weekly now. Plus Air Madrid starts 4x weekly MIA-MAD this winter. I think a second daily MIA-MAD would be more effective, IMO, especially considering Madrid is a key European hub for oneWorld.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
AA simply didn't have enough 777s to go around. AA has some extras now because of the ending of the SJC-NRT and DFW-KIX routes, but those are going to be put to very good [profitable] use this winter on MIA-EZE, and AA hopes to have them flying on DFW-PEK next year.

The MIA-EZE 777 switch is indefinite. The DFW-PEK planes, if approved, will come from the temporary switch to 777s on JFK-EZE.

[Edited 2006-09-09 00:00:59]


a.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11439 posts, RR: 61
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8727 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
I think a second daily MIA-MAD would be more effective, IMO, especially considering Madrid is a key European hub for oneWorld.

Agreed -- either or. An upgrade of 68/69 to a 777, or a second 767 flight, I think both would be successful. A second flight, time to leave MIA later -- around 2200 or 2300 -- and return back to MIA arriving later in the afternoon, and thus shortening the connections to South America, could do excellent. But I tend to think that a 777 would be great for the route because this route -- particularly with all the connections AA offers -- would definitely be able to support the more premium cabin mix.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
The MIA-EZE 777 switch is permanent. The DFW-PEK planes, if approved, will come from the temporary switch to 777s on JFK-EZE.

Thanks for the correction, MAH.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8727 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
JFK-LHR is only cut by a Sunday flight that moves to MIA,

thanks...clarifies things up... thumbsup 

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
The MIA-EZE 777 switch is permanent. The DFW-PEK planes, if approved, will come from the temporary switch to 777s on JFK-EZE.

they need to start ORD-HKG.....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8636 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 5):
And yet, AF uses 772s and 77W to the USA which have both first class!!!So, why doesn't AA compete with AF?I mean AF Biz Class(especially the new one)is far better than AA Biz Class, why doesn't AA react?

AF has a vice grip on US-France premium traffic, particularly from the west coast.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30613 posts, RR: 84
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8611 times:
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Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
AF has a vice grip on US-France premium traffic, particularly from the west coast.

Yup. They successfully chased UA out of the SFO-CDG market because while UA could fill up the back of their 763s all day long, First Class and Business Class sales were very poor.

Perhaps the new Business Class will help UA. I know they're updating First, as well, but I believe the seating upgrades are only planned for the Suite on the 747s and 777s and not the seat on the 767.


User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7195 posts, RR: 86
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8579 times:
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I'd really enjoy seeing AA metal back at ORY.  yes 

Is it French authority that control it, or does AA still own rights to fly there.

Regards.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8560 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
Yup. They successfully chased UA out of the SFO-CDG market because while UA could fill up the back of their 763s all day long, First Class and Business Class sales were very poor.

Same thing when American ran LAX-ORY and LAX-CDG

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
Perhaps the new Business Class will help UA. I know they're updating First, as well, but I believe the seating upgrades are only planned for the Suite on the 747s and 777s and not the seat on the 767.

If United is smart, they will go two class on their 767s since there is no possible way to put actual pod-suites on a 767 without tearing up the floor.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1831 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8545 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
They successfully chased UA out of the SFO-CDG market because while UA could fill up the back of their 763s all day long, First Class and Business Class sales were very poor.

It seems also that AF is making times hard to UA on CDG-IAD as shown by the evolution of the number of daily flights between the 2 cities :
- 1 AF & 1 UA /day about 7 years ago
- then 2 AF & 2 UA/day before 9/11
- currently 3 AF & 1 UA/day
I fly this route 2 or 3 times a year on AF and I can tell the flights are always full in the 3 classes F/J/Y


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30613 posts, RR: 84
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8545 times:
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UA still flies the 777 between IAD and CDG, do they not? So I guess even with one daily sortie, it's holding it's own.

User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1831 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8398 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):
UA still flies the 777 between IAD and CDG, do they not?

yes, they do


User currently offlineB777A340Fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8229 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):
UA still flies the 777 between IAD and CDG, do they not? So I guess even with one daily sortie, it's holding it's own.

DL also operates a daily flight from ATL on its 772 as well.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32620 posts, RR: 72
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8163 times:

Quoting FXramper (Reply 21):
I'd really enjoy seeing AA metal back at ORY. yes

Is it French authority that control it, or does AA still own rights to fly there.

AA lost the rights to fly to Orly, despite the fact they never wanted to move to CDG. Recently, a new airline, Elysair, applied with DOT for Newark-Orly service. American Airlines responded and told DOT that the application should be rejected unless AA (and other US airlines) are allowed to fly to Orly.

After the CDG terminal collapse, there was talk that AA was going to move back to Orly, but AA put out a PR announcing that would not be the case. I think, in the future, AA would be wise to move back to Orly. It is more centrally located, offering an advantage for business travelers, and AA does not have any partner hubs in Paris that nessitate CDG. They also serve Paris from three of it's largest US O&D markets - Miami, New York City, and Chicago - which can further boost an Orly advantage.



a.
25 Post contains images FURUREFA : And BOS seasonally (right now, which is being cut ). Matt
26 Post contains images Dank : They can't do this unless they want to run all three LGW flights on 777s (the 2 DFW flights + the RDU flight) or fly a likely unprofitable reposition
27 Commavia : That's not really much of an issue, as LGW-RDU-LGW is going back to a 777 starting end of October. It is only getting downgraded to a 767 temporarily
28 Dank : That's true, it really is a combination of factors. The RDU 777 would probably be better utilitized on the DFW run, but they can't do it without havi
29 MAH4546 : AA already has more 777s on order but none are currently set to arrive for camou five years.
30 Mandargb : Wasnt AA flying SJC-CDG a 777 few years ago? I think they had a daily service going on at least for year and suring 2000 or 2001?
31 AlitaliaMD11 : Agreed as well. That is indeed a prime route, Iberia sends A340-600's as well as -300's, like JFK, and Air Madrid will be sending A330-300's. The A34
32 N1120A : Also from CVG The problem is, AA can't get much of any interline traffic, even non-partner connections. Further, they would have to undertake the exp
33 Goldorak : Yes, they did but as you said it didn't last very long (less than a year as far as I remember). I'm not absolutely sure but I think the route was don
34 DFW13L : That's unless they were to have all 777s on 50/51 78/79 and the RDU 174/173, then when time comes to downgrade RDU to 763, add a third DFW-LGW freque
35 Jacobin777 : it was indeed with a 763......the route lost money from the word "go"..
36 Post contains images AA767400 : Because AA is not supported by the government like AF does. AF has the money to have 777s,330s,340s,737s,319s,744s and so on. They also have a HUB, a
37 Tundra767 : I miss AA's 777 to CDG. Was always easy to get a seat in a Premium Cabin.
38 Post contains images Jacobin777 : maybe that's why they ended the 777 to CDG...
39 Tundra767 : I am sure thats why it ended. Though I hear that if AA had more 777's CDG would be one of the stations to get 777 service. How is cargo on the market?
40 AOMlover : Please update your beliefs about AF...right now they're making much, much money and they don't need the government for that.
41 AA767400 : They still have the government.
42 Alitalia744 : And you know this how?
43 Arturo88 : I think the 777 is to much for that rout and the prefer to use it in a more demanded one.
44 Elmothehobo : My apologies. I just grow tired of people complaining about aircraft seats before riding in them. I heard the same thing about Swiss' J class seats,
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