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Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order  
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2493 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13302 times:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060908/airtran_mover.html?.v=1

A mistake IMO.
F9, WN, and B6 are all expanding. FL can't solve the capacity problems of the industry by cutting while everyone else is expanding. If their model works, fly them where they make money. They are only helping their competition. I sure wouldn't make a knee jerk reaction for the next 2 years, based on one soft month. They've been crying about not having enough lift to take advantage of opportunitys out there and now a complete 180. Fuel getting cheaper. Nows the time to grow before the majors restructure.

Maybe this will finally bring about a labor agreement.

104 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13229 times:

Open delivery slots for 2007 and 2008; Gee, I wonder who might be interested in those?  scratchchin 

User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13159 times:

If they had more destinations than mainly East Coast ones, could they be doing better? Their route map is the opposite of Alaska's, lots of routes out east with a few out to the west. Where Alaska is lots out west, with a few, but growing, out east.

User currently offlineSocalfive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13096 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 1):
Open delivery slots for 2007 and 2008; Gee, I wonder who might be interested in those?

LOL... yeah, don't we all!  Wink


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4313 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12951 times:

AirTran grew tremendously as well in the last few years, with new 717s and 737s EVERY MONTH to fill up. They only slow down their GROWTH. Nothing too dramatic and comparible to JetBlue which offers a few current and future A-320s for sale or lease.


nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12928 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
Nothing too dramatic and comparible to JetBlue which offers a few current and future A-320s for sale or lease.

They got rid of some older frames and changed the delivery schedule for future frames.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12874 times:

The fares haven't come down that much and fuel is getting cheaper. I can't understand what they are thinking. WN will probably take these jets and put them into service against Airtran flights at places like MCO, BWI, or MDW.

That reservation system snafu they had a month or so ago probably caused the biggest negative for this quarters numbers.


User currently offlineLowecur From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 585 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12799 times:

Jetblue was the first to reduce, and it's my opinion they will sell another 5 or 10 in both 2007 and 2008.

User currently offlinePositiverate From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1590 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12764 times:

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 3):
Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 1):
Open delivery slots for 2007 and 2008; Gee, I wonder who might be interested in those?

LOL... yeah, don't we all!

What am I missing?


User currently offlineGr8SlvrFlt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1602 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12739 times:

AirTran has not said anything about cancelling any orders. They have previously discussed the possibility of leasing out new 737s, at a profit, on a short term basis.

User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12678 times:

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 9):
AirTran has not said anything about cancelling any orders. They have previously discussed the possibility of leasing out new 737s, at a profit, on a short term basis.

In reaction to the weaker demand, AirTran said it will reduce growth in 2007 and 2008 by cutting the number of airplanes it plans to acquire. Previously, the company said it would acquire 19 airplanes over 2007 and 2008, but now says it will buy less.

I didn't get that from use of "acquire" and "buy" in the article, but who knows?

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 8):
What am I missing?

Gary Kelly said some weeks ago that we're in the market for some used -700s (and we've gotten one, so far) but if new aircraft were to become available, I think they'd be considered as well...


User currently offlineKSUpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12664 times:

After such a successful first quarter this is all a bit surprising. But it isn't like the are cut all their orders, just a portion of the 19.
From what I read there was no solid number out yet of how many they are actually cutting.


User currently offlineTravatl From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12602 times:

We're still getting the all the airplanes ordered, just not on the original delivery schedule (which was kinda steep for an airline our size anyways).

Oh well..... who knows? Maybe next year we'll close the doors completely, or announce double the amount of aircraft being delivered. That's the best/worst part of this industry, it's ups and downs.... I learned a long time ago to neither expect too much, nor to assume the worst.


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12551 times:

I think this qoute from the article says it all rather well:

"We haven't determined how many but it won't be a radical reduction," said Stan Gadek, AirTran chief financial officer, in an interview. "We'll still take a fair number of airplanes, but 19 is a lot of airplanes. We'll more closely match the number with the demand environment."

Very prudent of them if you ask me.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineN471WN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1526 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12532 times:
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Me thinks you are all missing the real reason for this---they will be able to pick up used 717's cheap in the next few years....no doubt about it

User currently offlineBlsbls99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12486 times:

Who will be selling used 717s for cheap over the next few years?


319 320 313 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 742 752 763 772 CRJ D9S ERJ EMB L10 M88 M90 SF3 AT4
User currently offlineD950 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 493 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12486 times:

Quoting Dbba (Reply 14):
they will be able to pick up used 717's cheap in the next few years....no doubt about it

From whom??



Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
User currently offlineN471WN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1526 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 12361 times:
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Well for starters there are 3 in storage as we speak in Brisbane--formerly operated by Jetstar and if you go to the numerous fleet list sites you will see some very small fleets that will come on the market---this is a much better option for AirTran than buying new 737-700's.

User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 12344 times:

Quoting Dbba (Reply 17):
Well for starters there are 3 in storage as we speak in Brisbane--formerly operated by Jetstar and if you go to the numerous fleet list sites you will see some very small fleets that will come on the market---this is a much better option for AirTran than buying new 737-700's.

Not neccessarily...depends on the mission...they cant do ATL-LAX for example.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineN471WN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1526 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 12296 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Agree DAYflyer but that is why they have their 737's and Airtran's growth is generally going to be within the range of the 717---my contacts at AirTran tell me that they love the 717 and wish Boieng had agreed to the longer range model so that they did not have to buy 737's

User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3262 posts, RR: 35
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 12282 times:

The real question that most of you are missing is...Where in the world as AirTran going to put all that growth?

The network carriers are getting their legs back. ATL is full, AirTran doesn't really have an obvious #2 growth market. They obviously feel that success at their current rate of growth is going to diminish, so they have elected to do the prudent thing and scale back that growth.

Airtran is a very well-managed airline. Most of their management has experience at failed airlines that grew too fast. They don't make these decisions lightly. They certainly understand the issues involved much better than anyone on this message board.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 12267 times:

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 20):
The real question that most of you are missing is...Where in the world as AirTran going to put all that growth?

The network carriers are getting their legs back. ATL is full, AirTran doesn't really have an obvious #2 growth market. They obviously feel that success at their current rate of growth is going to diminish, so they have elected to do the prudent thing and scale back that growth.

Airtran is a very well-managed airline. Most of their management has experience at failed airlines that grew too fast. They don't make these decisions lightly. They certainly understand the issues involved much better than anyone on this message board.

So well said it needs repeating!



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineFlyabunch From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 12229 times:

If they slow deliveries...instead of cancelling, that does not cause Boeing to slow production. They will simply reallocate the planes in production and I am sure that WN would be more than happy to have the extra slots that come available.

Mike


User currently offlineClipper002 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 679 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 12201 times:

Couldn't agree more than with Jetlanta and Luv2fly. Constant growth for growth's sake is a disaster in the waiting. It's time to slow down a little and reflect on where they have been, what has been succesful and what has failed and why. Then regroup and alter your strategies going forward. Prudent panning is the name of the successful company and has thus far proven to jave worked very well for AirTran under their current leadership.

Rgds,
Ed



Ed
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 12179 times:

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 22):
I am sure that WN would be more than happy to have the extra slots that come available.

You hit the nail right on the head.
If FL's cost structure is similar to WN's and fuel prices starting to retreat on top of that, How is it that WN wants more lift and FL wants less? Loads are running in the 70-80% range. FL needs to continue adding flights from spoke cities to destinations other than ATL. That avoids the gate problem and follows the WN play book of several destinations from each city.


25 DAYflyer : I disagree; ATL is full but they have significant growth opportunities in IND where they are doing very well.
26 Luv2fly : In addition you have CAK, BWI and MDW as well.
27 Quickmover : I can't see what has failed. They just said bookings backed off in late August, and as a result are looking to delay some deliverys over the next 2 y
28 Quickmover : Looks like Northwest agrees with you: Northwest adds flights from Indianapolis Business First of Louisville - 2:07 PM EDT Thursday Print this Article
29 ScottB : I don't see huge growth potential at CAK just given the overall size of the Northeast Ohio market in comparison to similar markets with secondary air
30 Clipper002 : I can't see what has failed. They just said bookings backed off inrnlate August, and as a result are looking to delay some deliveries overrnthe next 2
31 DeltaDAWG : I don't understand this move as well. I must agree that they are at places now that afford opportunity for both growth and profitability - such as IND
32 OzarkD9S : I agree. 4 gates to start and see how it goes from there. MCO. It's the company headquarters and to me, an obvious market for an FL hub. Not a focus
33 Wjcandee : I think Clipper002 has a very good handle on this. FL has real-time data to analyze every month. They have been doing very well, but they are also loo
34 Post contains images Mariner : Airtran CEO Leonard has shown a remarkable abiity to read the market. If he is saying there are bumps ahead, then I would suspect that there are bump
35 Srbmod : Unless they bring back JetConnect, you won't see a return of intra-Florida routes by FL. The Carribean idea sounds interesting though.......
36 Midway2airtran : I agree, but there is a lot of credit that needs to be paid to the rest of the leadership team and the many people that have lifted the airline from
37 STLGph : As I pointed out in another thread, it's not necessarily expansion. NWA -used- to do 3x daily DC9s from IND to LGA. Now it's 4 flights a day with one
38 Xlpants : What Joe Leonard didn't count on is Delta "sticking" it to him! Just look at the the DL release on MLI with 170's, the addition of BOS-PHF, etc. FL i
39 MSYtristar : Ditto[Edited 2006-09-09 00:53:25]
40 STLGph : AirTran has plenty of places to go. I'm sure they just choose to operate and manage their company wisely for the sake of treating of ultimately being
41 MSYtristar : Really? Have any proof to back that up? Oh no, watch out FL, big old DL is putting E70's on MLI-ATL! Oh no! Goodbye market share!
42 King : I don't think you can call Delta revitalized until they are out of bankruptcy.
43 Srbmod : Difference being that probably only a small percentage of AirTran's ramp and gate agents have been there long enough to make an equivalent pay rate s
44 STLGph : yes, double digit profits...at the expense of their employees. like, duh. the company management thus far is not screwing them over making them pay f
45 WorldTraveler : Funny how FL is blaming a storm that never even became a hurricane. Further, DL pulled about 15% of capacity out of its domestic system and redeploye
46 KSUpilot : This may be a better option than brand new aircraft. AirTran should pick up a few used 717s and just wait for Y1. Then they can begin replacing a goo
47 MCOflyer : I think FL will pick up those 717's. I believe Leonard and his strategies for success. MCOflyer
48 KSUpilot : I agree. Boeing killed the program but there are other ways to succeed. Look at CO with the 757. Boeing kills the program but CO has recieved many us
49 TVNWZ : Okay, I'll stir the pot and think outside the box: revive the aquire Midwest talks. 25 717s there and a ready made hub. I thought their new Res syste
50 MSYtristar : Competition is fine. As are E70's. This seems like much ado about nothing to me. By November, the flight could easily go back to a CRJ, or whatever i
51 Post contains images OttoPylit : How? Delta posted profits due to the huge expansion that isn't even complete yet. The only people who have taken any paycuts recently were the pilots
52 STLGph : and when did i ever say that? and you work in accounting? since you're this "stickler" for english, notice your use of the word "recently"? yes. and
53 GEnx : Perhaps we can just take a step back for a second here. I think Mariner nailed it with that post. We can get into an FL/DL catfight...but is there a
54 9252fly : Historically a slowdown in the airline industry is a precursor to an economy that's about to stumble.
55 Vatveng : Semantics. Ernesto was only 4mph away from being classified as a Hurricane. Sustained winds just before it made landfall were hovering around 70 mph.
56 STLGph : wake up. read your own company's press releases and the news bulletins from when Delta made headlines by scaling back employee benefits. ah, we sudde
57 CMHSRQ : It's tough to make money and have pax when your up against Jetblue and $88 intro fairs to TPA and RSW from BOS and LGA FL never has had a PHL-SRQ
58 Xlpants : and maybe DL could pick up those future FL 700 delivery positions...now that could help solve FL's capacity problem!
59 FlyPNS1 : Maybe because DL isn't expanding. DL has been steadily shrinking throughout this year. So if you want to say the profits came from any DL strategy, t
60 Quickmover : They have, up until recently. Aren't they picking up 10 ex TWA 757s? Also, not literally Delta, but the RJ fleet is growing with those new E170s thro
61 Jetlanta : You all still don't get it. There are a ton of places they can put airplanes, but not a ton of places where they have confidence of an adequate Retur
62 Jetlanta : Now come on Otto, I'm no AirTran homer, but you are being way too harsh. AirTran's management team is well-respected around the industry, including a
63 Jacobin777 : add B6's, and I predict others will come...fortunately, the price of oil is down to $66.30/barrel....which is $10 down from recent highs, and that wi
64 B757capt : I agree completely. I think if FL had the opertunity to be the only 717 operator in the world. They would.
65 Travatl : Very well said.....
66 Srbmod : OttoPylit is an ex-FL employee and still has some sort of axe to grind with the airline, and tries to bash the airline any chance that they can. Some
67 Ikramerica : Do you work for the democrat party here in the USA? They also define a decrease in growth of a program a cut. FL is talking about adding maybe 15-16
68 OttoPylit : Delta has been shrinking domestically, a whole whopping 6% IIRC. While expanding internationally at an alarming rate. The international expansion som
69 FlyPNS1 : Try 12.5% for the month of August and 13.9% for the year to date. That of course includes the DCI carriers, if you look just at mainline it shrunk ev
70 WorldTraveler : Semantics would be using two different words that mean the same thing. A hurricane has a distinct definition while a tropical storm is something quit
71 MSYtristar : Well i'm not one to give DL accolades on a consistent basis, but that is a good thing. God forbid I try to make a reservation over the phone. My name
72 KSUpilot : I feel that FL has this future and hope as well. This is a very small setback that I feel in some ways is being blown way out of proportion. Someone
73 MSYtristar : Not to beat a dead horse, just a few thoughts. To me, the decision to defer/cancel some aircraft deliveries makes a lot of sense. In today's environme
74 OttoPylit : Thank you for proving my point! As I said, a whole whopping 6%. 6% is SO massive. The correct term would be furloughed. And what about them? Its an u
75 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Correlation doesn't mean causality.... If DL is shrinking its domestic system, then how are they hurting ( cause suffering) B6 and FL? Your statement
76 Ikramerica : Oh well, I guess this is a DL thread, not an airtran thread. Suggest moderators lock it before the dead horse is beaten beyond recognition.
77 Post contains images Mariner : Just because they haven't said it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. cheers mariner
78 Jetlanta : Look beyond the executive suites and there are plenty of Delta managers who have been around since 7.5. I know many personally. I'm not going to name
79 Srbmod : Hijacked again by the usual suspects........ That is very true, and was happy when they tweaked it right about the time I started working @ EV back i
80 MEA-707 : As far as I am aware, Leonard didn't kill 6 million people purely based on race or religious believes, or started a very cruel World War. I believe p
81 Jacobin777 : How would that cause suffering of B6 though..? And upgrading its fleet or using larger planes certainly isn't decreasing capacity then.... Yes..maybe
82 Srbmod : I really can't answer that one, since I don't live in a B6 market and am not up to date on things in regards to the airline. FL, I can easily answer
83 Post contains images OttoPylit : Your correct, but if what you were assigned to implement failed, even if it wasn't your fault, it can still reflect badly upon you. Which is why you
84 Post contains images Mariner : I thought this was an Airtran thread - I am confused by all this Delta chest pounding. Given that Delta - despite: And despite Delta's "record profits
85 Jetlanta : You are in completely over your head here. You've taken conventional wisdom and hearsay and come up with some scenario that isn't remotely related to
86 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Thank you very much...
87 WorldTraveler : I doubt if the new terminal at ATL will ever be built because gates there will cost so much more than what it costs to operate at the mid-field termin
88 Post contains links Mariner : I am still not sure why - or how - this thread became about Delta, but: Given that Delta's domestic load factor was flat in August, I think you are ma
89 OttoPylit : Your forgot that the record profits were under one CEO, and then a banker came in and emptied it all into his pockets. Or did you conveiniently leave
90 Jetlanta : Ugh. Please check your email.
91 FlyPNS1 : I remember very well that DL hammered Valujet with extra capacity and super low, money losing fares when VJ entered both MOB and VPS. In the case of M
92 Mariner : I used exactly your history of Delta's fiances. Did you not see the quote, or recognize what you had written? mariner
93 Post contains images Jacobin777 : WorldTraveler...your points might be correct, but you are making assumptions and correlation doesn't mean causality.....B6, CO, and FL might be havin
94 DeltaGuy : Very childish comment there. I would say that if I had a choice of reading his commentary, whether I agree with it or not, or your childish rhetoric,
95 TVNWZ : I used to be a frequent AirTran flyer, but have given up on them. From my personal experience, Otto tends to be right on the money in his observation
96 Avconsultant : ValuJet negotiated subsidies under VP of Marketing Ponder Harrison, now with Allegiant Airlines. He brought the idea from his days at Delta. While at
97 Mariner : You mean - when he compares the CEO to Hitler, he is right? Gosh. mariner
98 TVNWZ : No not that. When he discusses operational issues that match what I observe. The rest is Blah. Blah. Blah.
99 Post contains links Gr8SlvrFlt : The official details: Eight 737s postponed from 2007 & 2008 to 2009 through 2011. Twenty deliveries in 2006 (no change); 14 in 2007 (5 less than origi
100 WorldTraveler : oh, that's a classic way to deny DL's progress today. About like the drone that said they're not sure if ATL is viable as a long term hub!!! You migh
101 DAYflyer : FL is way up here in DAY and I hope they expand in this market. Although we are a small market, DL has more flights and ridership is up since they pul
102 Quickmover : If Oil goes back to the 40s and 50s, FL will regret this decision. They can make profits with lower costs, just as easy as higher revenue. Bad move IM
103 FlyPNS1 : Since when is growing capacity by 20% considered taking capacity out of the market??
104 Quickmover : Call it what you want, but they are delaying delivery of 8 737s.
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