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Dirty Tricks Inc.  
User currently offlineIndianGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

I was talking to a friend who works with a leading Indian airline, and he kept talking of a certain airline playing 'dirty tricks' on his carrier on one of its main intl. routes.

I for one, refuse to believe any of this BS. After all Why should the biggies of the airline industry worry so much about a relative newcomer? Apparently this biggie in question has a reputation for it.

What do you guys feel about this? Any examples of 'dirty tricks' against rivals in the airline business?



28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1580 times:



BA famously used dirty tricks against Virgin, things like approaching VS upper class passengers pretending to be VS staff, telling them the VS flight was cancelled and offering "kindly" to rebook them on a BA flight.

But the staff from Indian carriers I've met seem more interested in getting free tickets on other airlines than trying to compete for sales. It may just be as a civil servant AI/IC type he isn't used to normal competitive practises...

What were the "tricks" they were using? Dummy bookings? Only offering poor slots? Ensuring the Indian carrier never gets a jet airbridge, so the passengers must use boarding steps?

Many airlines regard any competition as something to be crushed if at all possible, look what NW and DL do to start up airlines in the US. Whether the tricks are "dirty" or "competitive" is sometimes a fine line.

Besides AI/IC cannot really complain, one of the dirtiest tricks of all is being a state owned airline that persuades the state never to grant traffic rights to the competition...


User currently offlineACVITALE From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1536 times:

Dirty tricks Inc. BA vs AI look at slots ground handling in LHR and refusal to grant slots at LHR to AI except at 2-4am when they wanted to use their 24 extras. Hmmmph!

User currently offlineLutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1522 times:

Look at AI/ Indian government refusing to let Thai fly Bangkok to Bombay for the last fifteen years! Or refusing to let IC take the FRA route...

Any time a competitor flies a passenger that could have flown with my airline, that is taking money from my family, because if it happens too much I'm out of a job. And most airlines will use all legal means to ensure it doesn't happen, including offering better service, better aircraft and better schedules. And maybe some pressure on local friendly politicians (AA vs Legend at Love Field)

ACVITALE, slots at LHR are damn near impossible. The only way is to accept bad timings, then swap for better ones from another airline, but they will want a lot of money for that. BA themselves have to move flights to other airports to add at LHR.

PIA do very well at MAN and Birmingham, rather than complaining about something impossible to change.


User currently offlineMCOtoATL From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 474 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1502 times:

In years past, American has used their computer reservation system to give itself a competitive advantage with travel agents. For example, if another airline had a lower fare, it would not show up on the system for quite some time. Deyails can be read in the book "Hard Landing" by Thomas Petzinger.

American's Bob Crandall also once was tape recorded trying to "price fix" with Braniff.


User currently offlinePhilB From Ireland, joined May 1999, 2915 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1493 times:

Laker was forced out of business by a "consortium" of US and British carriers which eventually had to pay out compensation to Sir Freddie

User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1481 times:

PhilB maybe it was not so bad Freddie went out of Business!
Iain


User currently offlinePhilB From Ireland, joined May 1999, 2915 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1462 times:

It was atragedy for free enterprise and the "little man" in both British business and world aviation. Still, he showed Richard the way

User currently offlineBH346 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3265 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1464 times:

Also, AA has driven Vanguard out of Wichita, Kansas, on the DFW-ICT route. We've had high fares ever since. People are fleeing the high fares and now fly out of Kansas City, Tulsa, and Oklahoma City, even though it takes 3 hours to get there by car!!

Regards,
BH346



Northwest Airlines - Some People Just Know How to Fly
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5767 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1439 times:

You may not be familiar with Legend Airlines. They are a new startup out of Dallas Love and fly to LGA, LAS, LAX, and IAD. Well, American used some unusual business practices- American *ALLEGEDLY* hacked into Legends computer system and changed important information, cancelling people's reservations and things of that sort. Now, I can't prove this myself, but if you use the search function, I am sure you can find it quickly. This happened back when Legend was just starting flights, in March or April, I believe.


User currently offlineFanoftristars From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1607 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1420 times:

American has been giving Legend all types of problems, (can you blame them? Legend is providing a superior product to the business traveler) even forming law suits etc to stop them. I hope the Legend lives on.


"FLY DELTA JETS"
User currently offlineIndianGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1381 times:

All this is unbelievable! The things some people/airlines will do!

Grabbing Upper-Class pax is one of the things that i heard. And our national carrier had apparently handed over the responsibility for ground handling to this intl.airline with which it was competing. Thats like George Bush asking Saddam to take care of his tanks enroute to Baghdad!


User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 44
Reply 12, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1367 times:

You wanna know about dirty tricks? Read Nuts!, the book about Southwest Airlines, and you'll read about all of Braniff's dirty tricks and underhanded dealings trying to put WN out of business from the start!

One vestige P-I-T-A that's still hanging on is the "Wright Amendment" restricting advertisements for flights to/from Dallas Love Field to cities within surrounding states. Somehow, this year, Continental Airlines managed to get around Wright and now they advertise "the only non-stop flights from Cleveland to Dallas Love Field." While "non-stop" may be true, WN has been offering (but not advertising) flights from CLE-DAL via a stopover city for a very long time. So now CO is doing dirty tricks to WN as well.

But hey, who's still in business? Braniff's dead twice since WN started up!

redngold




Up, up and away!
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1343 times:

I will comment on this in depth when I have time, but this is for Lutfi right now.

AI and LHR slots were a very strange story in which slots were available for ORD service, but not for YYZ service at the same times? Oh please....


User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1329 times:

I know that TWA, PAN AM and BA had put Laker Airways out of business but what other airlines had their role in the matter. There were probably more than just those 3 carriers that put Freddie out of the airline biz


"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3811 posts, RR: 34
Reply 15, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1319 times:

I have the perfect article for this topic. You want to read about airline's dirty tricks? Have a look at this article written three years ago in the Dallas Observer.

The (W)right to Fly
10/15/1997

http://www.dallasobserver.com/issues/1997-10-16/feature.html/page1.html

It's very long but very interesting.

LoneStarMike

User currently offlineLutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1304 times:

B747-437B, what about SR having to pay royalties to AI per BOM-HKG passenger... or foreign carriers having to use a well connected GSA to have any chance of more flights to India. God knows what MH have had to pay.

Let's just say the sub-continent can play the game as well as anyone. UA slots at DEL were also a big problem for them to get.

Indianguy. If another airline takes much of another's business, they will be bankrupt and out of a job. I know that isn't the case for AI staff, but it is for the rest of the world. And the line between competition and a trick is thin. Is it OK to call an upper class frequent flyer of another airline and offer him comp status or upgrade to switch? Yes. Is it OK to hack into another airline's system and steal those names? No. But you can get the name list from a credit card company...

In the old days, it wasn't even allowed to sell cheaper than another airline!


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1292 times:

Lutfi - UA and AI are presently on very bad terms thanks to UA reneging on their contract for emergency maintenance at ORD. Long story there, but lets just hope nothing EVER happens to a UA aircraft transiting DEL, 'cos folks have a long memory in those parts.

SR had to pay royalties for BOM-HKG pax, just like AI paid royalties for FCO-GVA pax. Sure, more money in the former case but tit for tat.


User currently offlineNycank From United States of America, joined May 2000, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1268 times:

Lufti: 'bi-laterals" cover fifth freedom and cabbotage rules. So Swiss and Indians
must have negotiated the BOM-HKG deal.

BOM-HKG has enough O&D pax probably to handle more than one airline  

Indian Guy, the only thing in my mind could be VS ? Is that what you are reffering to ? Dirty Tricks are when you are exposed, rest is business.


User currently offlineLutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1262 times:

Tks B747-437, didn't know about the GVA-FCO deal.

Yes, Nycank it was maybe negotiated as part of the ASA, but traffic rights belong to countries, not airlines. I can understand a royalty paid to the government (it's called taxation) but a royalty paid to a company is unusual. Saudi sometimes insists on the same for the right to carry guest workers there.

Of course, the problem is the AI and the govt are one... as I said, that's one of the dirtiest tricks of all.


User currently offlineAirmale From Botswana, joined Sep 2004, 377 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1260 times:

didnt this happen with British Caledonian too 


.....up there with the best!
User currently offlineNycank From United States of America, joined May 2000, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1217 times:

Lufti: Airlines pay for flying over someone's air space, they pay airport authorities for landing, and finally may pay other carriers for goods and services, which can range from maint.,gates,wet/dry leases and also routes.

Sean could clarify the details or SR AI agreements. AI is a Govt. entity, and
for a long time SR had a similar investments by Swiss Govt.


User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1212 times:

Why the vagueness in your original post? What was the Indian airline in question? Who is playing the dirty tricks? And what are the alleged dirty tricks?

If it's Indian Airlines, I find it difficult to have ANY sympathy for them. As a national airline that regularly keeps competitors out, I agree with Lutfi, that is the most anti-competitive dirty trick there is.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1203 times:

WHy doesn't the Indian government allow TG to fly Bom-Bkk? Is it because of some strange bilateral that allows TG to fly only to 2 indian destinations? Or is it because TG aren't allowed to increase flights because AI only fly twice weekly?


User currently offlineIndianGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1201 times:

AI & BA resp.

1. Grabbing First/Business Pax. Apparently AI pax at LHR are/were handled by BA?
2. Bullying on slots/maintainance


Theres supposed to be some trouble with SQ as well, and this is affecting IC as well. Perhaps Sean knows more on this?


25 Post contains images VirginLover : Also, BA got hold of VS's database, and called the First Class passengers that were flying on VS that day and saying that their flight was cancelled,
26 B747-437B : All of AI's facilities at LHR were sold to BA during the Rajan Jetley era for a pittance (can we say Carl Icahn?). This included everything from the s
27 Jaysit : Assuming AI had the aircraft, could it lease back its slots from NZ or VS at LHR?
28 Lutfi : Must admit, I enjoyed competing with AI when I did it, because it was easy. Unlike most airlines, their staff aren't motivated to reach sales or servi
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