IndianGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1683 times:
I was talking to a friend who works with a leading Indian airline, and he kept talking of a certain airline playing 'dirty tricks' on his carrier on one of its main intl. routes.
I for one, refuse to believe any of this BS. After all Why should the biggies of the airline industry worry so much about a relative newcomer? Apparently this biggie in question has a reputation for it.
What do you guys feel about this? Any examples of 'dirty tricks' against rivals in the airline business?
Lutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 738 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1435 times:
BA famously used dirty tricks against Virgin, things like approaching VS upper class passengers pretending to be VS staff, telling them the VS flight was cancelled and offering "kindly" to rebook them on a BA flight.
But the staff from Indian carriers I've met seem more interested in getting free tickets on other airlines than trying to compete for sales. It may just be as a civil servant AI/IC type he isn't used to normal competitive practises...
What were the "tricks" they were using? Dummy bookings? Only offering poor slots? Ensuring the Indian carrier never gets a jet airbridge, so the passengers must use boarding steps?
Many airlines regard any competition as something to be crushed if at all possible, look what NW and DL do to start up airlines in the US. Whether the tricks are "dirty" or "competitive" is sometimes a fine line.
Besides AI/IC cannot really complain, one of the dirtiest tricks of all is being a state owned airline that persuades the state never to grant traffic rights to the competition...
Lutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 738 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1377 times:
Look at AI/ Indian government refusing to let Thai fly Bangkok to Bombay for the last fifteen years! Or refusing to let IC take the FRA route...
Any time a competitor flies a passenger that could have flown with my airline, that is taking money from my family, because if it happens too much I'm out of a job. And most airlines will use all legal means to ensure it doesn't happen, including offering better service, better aircraft and better schedules. And maybe some pressure on local friendly politicians (AA vs Legend at Love Field)
ACVITALE, slots at LHR are damn near impossible. The only way is to accept bad timings, then swap for better ones from another airline, but they will want a lot of money for that. BA themselves have to move flights to other airports to add at LHR.
PIA do very well at MAN and Birmingham, rather than complaining about something impossible to change.
MCOtoATL From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 474 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1357 times:
In years past, American has used their computer reservation system to give itself a competitive advantage with travel agents. For example, if another airline had a lower fare, it would not show up on the system for quite some time. Deyails can be read in the book "Hard Landing" by Thomas Petzinger.
American's Bob Crandall also once was tape recorded trying to "price fix" with Braniff.
BH346 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3265 posts, RR: 15 Reply 8, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1319 times:
Also, AA has driven Vanguard out of Wichita, Kansas, on the DFW-ICT route. We've had high fares ever since. People are fleeing the high fares and now fly out of Kansas City, Tulsa, and Oklahoma City, even though it takes 3 hours to get there by car!!
Northwest Airlines - Some People Just Know How to Fly
AA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5548 posts, RR: 11 Reply 9, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1294 times:
You may not be familiar with Legend Airlines. They are a new startup out of Dallas Love and fly to LGA, LAS, LAX, and IAD. Well, American used some unusual business practices- American *ALLEGEDLY* hacked into Legends computer system and changed important information, cancelling people's reservations and things of that sort. Now, I can't prove this myself, but if you use the search function, I am sure you can find it quickly. This happened back when Legend was just starting flights, in March or April, I believe.
Fanoftristars From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1591 posts, RR: 5 Reply 10, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1275 times:
American has been giving Legend all types of problems, (can you blame them? Legend is providing a superior product to the business traveler) even forming law suits etc to stop them. I hope the Legend lives on.
IndianGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1236 times:
All this is unbelievable! The things some people/airlines will do!
Grabbing Upper-Class pax is one of the things that i heard. And our national carrier had apparently handed over the responsibility for ground handling to this intl.airline with which it was competing. Thats like George Bush asking Saddam to take care of his tanks enroute to Baghdad!
Redngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 47 Reply 12, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1222 times:
You wanna know about dirty tricks? Read Nuts!, the book about Southwest Airlines, and you'll read about all of Braniff's dirty tricks and underhanded dealings trying to put WN out of business from the start!
One vestige P-I-T-A that's still hanging on is the "Wright Amendment" restricting advertisements for flights to/from Dallas Love Field to cities within surrounding states. Somehow, this year, Continental Airlines managed to get around Wright and now they advertise "the only non-stop flights from Cleveland to Dallas Love Field." While "non-stop" may be true, WN has been offering (but not advertising) flights from CLE-DAL via a stopover city for a very long time. So now CO is doing dirty tricks to WN as well.
But hey, who's still in business? Braniff's dead twice since WN started up!
VirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1184 times:
I know that TWA, PAN AM and BA had put Laker Airways out of business but what other airlines had their role in the matter. There were probably more than just those 3 carriers that put Freddie out of the airline biz
Lutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 738 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1159 times:
B747-437B, what about SR having to pay royalties to AI per BOM-HKG passenger... or foreign carriers having to use a well connected GSA to have any chance of more flights to India. God knows what MH have had to pay.
Let's just say the sub-continent can play the game as well as anyone. UA slots at DEL were also a big problem for them to get.
Indianguy. If another airline takes much of another's business, they will be bankrupt and out of a job. I know that isn't the case for AI staff, but it is for the rest of the world. And the line between competition and a trick is thin. Is it OK to call an upper class frequent flyer of another airline and offer him comp status or upgrade to switch? Yes. Is it OK to hack into another airline's system and steal those names? No. But you can get the name list from a credit card company...
In the old days, it wasn't even allowed to sell cheaper than another airline!
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1147 times:
Lutfi - UA and AI are presently on very bad terms thanks to UA reneging on their contract for emergency maintenance at ORD. Long story there, but lets just hope nothing EVER happens to a UA aircraft transiting DEL, 'cos folks have a long memory in those parts.
SR had to pay royalties for BOM-HKG pax, just like AI paid royalties for FCO-GVA pax. Sure, more money in the former case but tit for tat.
Lutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 738 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1117 times:
Tks B747-437, didn't know about the GVA-FCO deal.
Yes, Nycank it was maybe negotiated as part of the ASA, but traffic rights belong to countries, not airlines. I can understand a royalty paid to the government (it's called taxation) but a royalty paid to a company is unusual. Saudi sometimes insists on the same for the right to carry guest workers there.
Of course, the problem is the AI and the govt are one... as I said, that's one of the dirtiest tricks of all.
Nycank From United States of America, joined May 2000, 233 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1072 times:
Lufti: Airlines pay for flying over someone's air space, they pay airport authorities for landing, and finally may pay other carriers for goods and services, which can range from maint.,gates,wet/dry leases and also routes.
Sean could clarify the details or SR AI agreements. AI is a Govt. entity, and
for a long time SR had a similar investments by Swiss Govt.
Travelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3380 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1067 times:
Why the vagueness in your original post? What was the Indian airline in question? Who is playing the dirty tricks? And what are the alleged dirty tricks?
If it's Indian Airlines, I find it difficult to have ANY sympathy for them. As a national airline that regularly keeps competitors out, I agree with Lutfi, that is the most anti-competitive dirty trick there is.
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1058 times:
WHy doesn't the Indian government allow TG to fly Bom-Bkk? Is it because of some strange bilateral that allows TG to fly only to 2 indian destinations? Or is it because TG aren't allowed to increase flights because AI only fly twice weekly?