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Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?  
User currently offlineBHXDTW From Eritrea, joined Feb 2005, 1088 posts, RR: 5
Posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5661 times:

Hey guys !!
Ok I have one for you....
Quite a simple one for a lot of you but.. can someone please (in easy to understand english) explain the Bermuda II ruling ??

I had someone ask me the other day why DL/CO/US/NW cant fly into LHR and why does BA have to fly into DFW from LGW if AA fly from LGW..

I was lost for a decent explanaition.

Can someone explain the rulings and reasonings in an easy to underdtand guide ?? any help is reeeallllly appreciated as im not too up on it..

Joe

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3762 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

Hi Joe!

Breif Sumary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_II

Full Explanation
http://www.publications.parliament.u...00/cmselect/cmenvtra/532/53206.htm

Only two US and two UK carriers are aloud to fly USA-LHR flights.

Can someone tell me why AI and KU fly LHR-JFK and AI fly LHR-ORD, did they already fly the route before the Bermuda rulings came along?

Rob!  wave 


User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 5590 times:

Quoting B742 (Reply 1):
Can someone tell me why AI and KU fly LHR-JFK and AI fly LHR-ORD, did they already fly the route before the Bermuda rulings came along?

Bermuda II doesn't apply to non-US/UK airlines. AI, for example, gets LON-JFK 5th freedom rights from both the India-UK and India-USA bilateral Air Services Agreements. These agreements do not restrict rights to certain airports (although I suspect there is some limited city-pair restriction).

Bermuda II is not a 'ruling' but an agreement between two sovereign states. Both parties agreed on the limitations. Bermuda I (1946) was much more restricted in respect of route rights.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 5512 times:
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Basically it created a concept known as "THE HEATHROW FOUR". BA, VIRIGIN, AA AND UA are the current four. It regulated all other USA airlines to Gatwick airport. Delta was in suck a hurry to get to London from Atlanta while Jimmy Carter was in the White House the Brits shafted the Americans with this crumy deal in 1977. All new airline would fly to Gatwick airport.

Airlines from other parts of the world faced a similar "Gatwick" mandate until 1991 when LHR was re-opened to post 1977 airlines. Interestingly airlines like Cathay, ANZ, ANA and others that had started servcie to London before 1991 but after 1977 went running to LHR while the door was open. This "Gatwick" Mandate was without mercy for even British airlines, British Caledonian flew all its schedule from LGW. Even Virgin when it started was "Gatwicked", in 1991 it transferred as many services it could to LHR(JFK, EWR, NRT and LAX). The 1991 re-opening of LHR occured because of the need to get UA and AA(replacing TWA and Pan AM) into LHR so the Brits had to let all the other airlines in too. Gatwick should mean " to hell with the colonies", not only the USA but all of them, that's the airport the Brits tried to send all the lesser airlines too.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 5492 times:

If you search in the Civ-Av archives, you'll come up with a number of good threads on Bermuda II, a popular topic here.

This is still the definitive thread on it:

Bermuda II Synopsis (by B747-437B Jun 12 2002 in Civil Aviation)

And this thread has a full copy of the treaty:

Bermuda II Accord - F.O.I.A. Request? (by AeroWesty Mar 7 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Using Search Topic with the phrase *bermuda* (using the * as wildcards to catch more hits) and clicking "Only Thread-starters", will help bring up the relative threads more easily, rather than having to sort through a list of all the replies to each thread.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 5420 times:
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Poor Gatwick is like the fat sister the family tries to hide, so everyone put their eyes on the pretty skinny daughter instead.

User currently offlineAvatordon From United States of America, joined May 2006, 239 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 5408 times:

This is confusing. AA is one of the LHR 4, but cannot fly there from DFW (or RDU); must fly to LGW. These were "new" routes for AA. But what about MIA? That was not part of TW deal, but they fly to LHR. And if US must fly from PHL to LGW, why doesn't the same restriction apply to BA from LGW instead of LHR? It has to be the most convoluted thing I've ever seen!

User currently offlineAirCanada014 From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 1507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 5363 times:

It would be nice to see CO and US in LHR....

User currently offlineAlbird87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 5335 times:

Can you not imagine if the Bermuda II agreement was abolished then can you see all the American cariers plus BMI rush at the chanve to operate to/from LHR?!?! It would really lower prices i think from the other carriers trying to compete on those routes. The only thing restricting this (if it happened) would be the time slots at LHR as like its already restricted but imagine terminal 3 with CO, UA, AA, NW, US, DL, BMI, VA. Not to mention the new business carriers such as Max jet and Eos.

User currently offlineThomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3860 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 5314 times:

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 3):
Gatwick should mean " to hell with the colonies", not only the USA but all of them, that's the airport the Brits tried to send all the lesser airlines too.

In addition to the 'lesser' cities of Houston, Dallas and Atlanta.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 5):
Poor Gatwick is like the fat sister the family tries to hide, so everyone put their eyes on the pretty skinny daughter instead.

Hash but an element of truth to that statement.

Thomas



"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2887 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 5302 times:

Bermuda 2 in a nutshell, if that's possible:

Only 2 US airlines and 2 British airlines allowed access to USA-Heathrow. Those airlines are BA, VS, AA and UA. Those airlines can only fly to Heathrow from the following US gateways: JFK, EWR, BOS, IAD, MIA, DTW, PHL, ORD, LAX, SFO and SEA. These two provisions need to be met in order to operate services to Heathrow. All other US and UK airlines and gateways are prohibied from flying to Heathrow. This is why, for example, DL cannot perate JFK-Heathrow becuase even though JFK is a designated gateway, DL is not a designated airline.

There are more twists and what-if's, but this is the very broad overview of B2.


User currently offlineNateDAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 5285 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
And this thread has a full copy of the treaty:

Bermuda II Accord - F.O.I.A. Request? (by AeroWesty Mar 7 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Actually, that is not the entire treaty.

I didn't realize at the time, but the post size limitations cut it off about half way through, including the section that deals with LGW. I have posted that short paragraph in other threads.

It is 58 pages in a MS Word doctument. If anyone wants to host the file to share with the rest of the board, I can e-mail you a PDF or MS Word file.



Set Love Free
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 5253 times:

Quoting NateDAL (Reply 11):
I didn't realize at the time, but the post size limitations cut it off about half way through, including the section that deals with LGW.

Oh, I didn't realize that, thanks for the heads up! I thought it was just a few of the addendums that didn't post.

Quoting NateDAL (Reply 11):
If anyone wants to host the file to share with the rest of the board, I can e-mail you a PDF or MS Word file.

I'll send you my e-mail address by IM. I'll test it out to see if I can create a link to the space on my .Mac account where both Mac and PC users can access it. Downloads from that site are usually very fast.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineNateDAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 5229 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):

I'll send you my e-mail address by IM. I'll test it out to see if I can create a link to the space on my .Mac account where both Mac and PC users can access it. Downloads from that site are usually very fast.

sent



Set Love Free
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 5198 times:

Quoting NateDAL (Reply 13):
sent

Got it, thanks! I'll set something up in the morning when my brain is awake, so I do it right.  Smile



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2304 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 5174 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 10):
Those airlines are BA, VS, AA and UA. Those airlines can only fly to Heathrow from the following US gateways: JFK, EWR, BOS, IAD, MIA, DTW, PHL, ORD, LAX, SFO and SEA.



Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 10):
All other US and UK airlines and gateways are prohibied from flying to Heathrow.

That is not true. From Heathrow, BA serves SEA, SFO, LAX, DEN, PHX, IAH, ORD, DTW, MIA EWR, JFK, BOS, PHL, IAD, and Baltimore.

By the way, this was signed on July 23, 1977. At that time, Virgin did not exist. So, who was the other British airline?

Also, are AI and KU allowed to sell their "grandfather rights" to another airline?


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 5150 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 15):
By the way, this was signed on July 23, 1977. At that time, Virgin did not exist. So, who was the other British airline?

Bermuda II has been amended a few times, and I believe it was when the sale of the Pan Am and TWA routes were authorized, Virgin was named as an additional airline to the agreement. There's an explanation of it all in another one of the recent Bermuda threads.

(We should really do a Bermuda FAQ with all these questions and answers.)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 5098 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 15):
By the way, this was signed on July 23, 1977. At that time, Virgin did not exist. So, who was the other British airline?

You should remember that until 1987 BA was a state-owned airline, highly protected and heavily subsidised by the UK Government. Whilst under state-ownership, no UK airline was permitted to operate in direct competition with BA particularly on its long-haul routes previously operated by BOAC. A government white paper did recommend the creation of a second-force UK airline and this was filled by British United Airways (BUA) who were acquired by Caledonian Airways (the original, not the JMC charter airline) and became Caledonian/BUA and later British Caledonian (BCal). BOAC transferred its non-profitable South American and West African routes to BUA who soon turned the losses into profits.

Protecting BA like a mother hen, the UK Government disregarded most of the recommendations of the white paper and restricted BUA/BCal to operating from LGW only. Until the airline was taken over by BA, seeking a second base at LGW, BCal was always denied access to LHR.

Interestingly, a second UK airline was designated to operate between London and New York in the late 1970s. BCal was the obvious candidate but the licence was instead temporarily granted to Sir Freddie Laker’s low-cost “Skytrain” service. The initial 12-month licence was extended and shortly afterwards Laker’s Skytrain was the second UK airline on routes between London (albeit LGW), JFK, LAX and MIA with additional services to Tampa and Orlando. BCal was the second UK airline on routes to the middle USA – i.e. LGW to Atlanta, Dallas Fort Worth, and Houston.

Laker went bankrupt in 1982, allegedly due to a conspiracy by BA, PanAm, TWA, BCal, LH and others. For a short while, BCal operated LGW/JFK but they were taken over by BA in 1988. Since BA then had a monopoly on many services from LHR and LGW, other airlines were permitted to tender for some of these services. Enter Branson who then had a handful of third-hand 742s and had been operating a (very erratic) back-packers’ airline. There was no doubt that the merger of BCal into BA saved VS. The agony of BCal’s employees was Branson’s ecstasy - “it’s fantastic, bloody fantastic. Virgin is now the second UK airline and can compete fairly with BA” Branson was quoted as saying on the demise of BCal, dancing on its grave.



MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5011 times:

Sorry, slight correction to the above: BCal was the sole UK airline on routes between London to Atlanta, Dallas Fort Worth and Houston until its merger with BA. Laker operated in competition with BA (albeit from LGW, MAN and Prestwick) with BA on routes to JFK, LAX and MIA.


MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineSam1987 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 946 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4977 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 15):
From Heathrow, BA serves SEA, SFO, LAX, DEN, PHX, IAH, ORD, DTW, MIA EWR, JFK, BOS, PHL, IAD, and BWI.

Not quite. IAH is served from LGW only.



Next flights: LGW-LBA-LGW, LHR-SIN-SYD, SYD-BKK-LHR, LGW-GRO, GRO-CIA, CIA-MAD, MAD-LGW
User currently offlineSv2008 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 622 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4963 times:

LGW wouldn't be so bad if they added a 2nd runway, and rebuilt/replaced the two terminals (most airports look like they were built in the 1970's on the outside but LGW is the only one to continue with this theme on the inside).

User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2887 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4956 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 15):
DEN, PHX, IAH

BA serves LGW-IAH and LHR-ORD-IAH. They do not serve Houston non-stop from Heathrow.

DEN, PHX, ah yes, one of the "what-if's" I mentioned:
BA is allowed to operate Heathrow-DEN/PHX because there is a provision allowing them to do as long as no Heathrow-designated US airline operates these flights. If, for example, UA decides to launch DEN-London, both the exsisting BA flight and the new UA flight would switch to Gatwick. Same for PHX.


User currently offlineSam1987 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 946 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4938 times:

Quoting Sam1987 (Reply 19):
Not quite. IAH is served from LGW only.

Sorry I meant "IAH is served direct from LGW only", as BigGSFO pointed out:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 21):
BA serves LGW-IAH and LHR-ORD-IAH



Next flights: LGW-LBA-LGW, LHR-SIN-SYD, SYD-BKK-LHR, LGW-GRO, GRO-CIA, CIA-MAD, MAD-LGW
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4826 times:

Bermuda 2 also has market capacity restraints on it which is just as significant as what airports can be served and by what airlines. Airlines are not free to add capacity at will but most do so within the guidelines at timelines established under the treaty.

It is for that reason that I argued for years (and ultimately was shown to be right) that DL could not add JFK-LGW if it wanted to and was only able to gain access even to LGW because it bought UA’s frequency rights to the market; because DL is not an LHR airline, it had to use the frequencies to LGW.

The irony is that Bermuda 2 only applies to LGW and LHR while most of the rest of the UK essentially has open skies.

Bermuda 2 is an agreement that should be tossed out just like the Wright Amendment – and without any back room deals to protect a few carriers. Maybe, just maybe, BA will be convicted of price fixing in the current cargo and passenger cases against them with the result that London’s airports must be opened to greater competition. No other city in the world has such restrictive access to its airports.


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2887 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4808 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 23):
Bermuda 2 is an agreement that should be tossed out just like the Wright Amendment – and without any back room deals to protect a few carriers. Maybe, just maybe, BA will be convicted of price fixing in the current cargo and passenger cases against them with the result that London’s airports must be opened to greater competition. No other city in the world has such restrictive access to its airports.

Slot availability aside, I agree. Bermuda 2 is somewhat of a relic of a time when restrictive bilaterals ruled the skies. Remember when Narita was the holy grail of authorities? I also remember when France was one of the most restricted markets around and now we have open skies.

Today's international marketplace has outpaced Bermuda 2.


25 Post contains links AeroWesty : Okay, I've hosted copies of the Bermuda II Accord graciously supplied by NateDAL in both PDF and Word DOC formats. The URL is: http://homepage.mac.com
26 VV701 : This is not quite correct. There are no, repeat no restrictions at all on any American airline flying from any US airport to London provided they use
27 WorldTraveler : I'm not arguing the tiny little points of Bermuda 2 because that's not the point. There is nothing that stops any UK carrier from setting up operation
28 MasseyBrown : The longer Bermuda II stays in force (and LHR/LGW fail to expand their facilities) the bigger AMS, CDG, and FRA will get. This is probably a more pote
29 Post contains links ANother : For a more accurate description of where US-EU (including UK) open skies stands, have a look at Jeff Shane's comments to International Aviation Club
30 Jeffry747 : IIRC Didn't BA have a nonstop from IAH-LGW during the late 80s or early 90s? I recall many a time being in the Int'l terminal at IAH back then and he
31 AeroWesty : They still do. A route I believe they inherited from British Caledonian.
32 BCAL : They were probably the 742s previously owned/operated by British CaledonianG-BJXN 20527/179G-GLYN 21516/326G-HUGE 21252/297G-CITB 22579/514G-NIGB 215
33 Jfk777 : In a nurshell, to fly to LHR 3 conditions must be met: 1) Be one of the 4 airlines, BA, VS, UA and AA. 2) Fly from one of the cities eligible for LHR
34 Post contains images Gr8Circle : AI, I think, started flying BOM-LHR-JFK way back in 1961 or 62......with the B707.... They've been flying the route continuously for the last 44-45 y
35 VV701 : This cannot happen. As you will have gathered from Mr Shane's talk to the International Aviation Club in Washington DC, the EU and not the UK is resp
36 MasseyBrown : Thank you for that reference. Mr Shane does a good job of presenting the Bush administration's point of view. The consequences of the US's doing noth
37 ANother : I am advised that this case, which has gone almost four years, is the longest ever that a ECJ decree has gone unactioned. This is the dilema facing B
38 MasseyBrown : As you point out, the ECJ decision is four years old and nothing has happened. I would say the Court, effectively, is being ignored right now. Intere
39 AeroWesty : I have echoed most of those sentiments in other posts on this subject. A well-run alternative will emerge one day as passenger traffic continues to c
40 BOE773 : Bermuda 11 flies smack against the face of the free enterprise system just to protect 4 old mother hens of airlines. This archaic agrement needs to be
41 WorldTraveler : And service levels have to be within the allowable limits of Bermuda 2. Trade restrictions in one market cause that market to be increasingly isolate
42 Jfk777 : Bermuda II was a deal made by Jimmy Carter to get Delta to Londo Fast & a Labor Government(Social old Labor) previous to Margaret Thatcher's 1979-1990
43 VV701 : Yes. But this is far from the case in the USA where the airports that can be served and the frequencies with which they can be served are highly rest
44 Gr8Circle : I think AI did lend/lease, whatever, some rights to VS....that's how VS was able to start flights to India in the first place....correct me if I'm wr
45 ANother : You are wrong. The rights enjoyed by AI are rights for Indian airlines. The Indian Government could designate another Indian Airline to operate 3rd/4
46 WorldTraveler : The US' airports are the most open in the world. There is no US airport where a LFC carrier cannot begin service. And US airports have capacity limits
47 ANother : Couldn't agree more. Would you kindly inform your Congress that Ryanair should be allowed to operate NYC-BOS or any other US route? Thank you.
48 Post contains links and images VV701 : On a.net there are 18 photos of PA 727s and 11 photos of PA 737s operating to other Eurpopean destinations out of LHR under the 5th freedom rights gr
49 Gr8Circle : That's exactly why I said 'lend / lease', if you read my post carefully.....I'm only pointing out that VS started flying to India using AI's rights w
50 WorldTraveler : The British and Germans gave up alot of rights to the US (as did the Japanese) because the US liberated Europe. You remember that little war? The one
51 Post contains links VV701 : This is probably true in the USA where wet leased foreign aircraft are banned from what are claimed to be 'the world's most open airports'. But be as
52 Post contains links ANother : Here is IATA's take on it:
53 PavlovsDog : One issue of Bermuda II I've never seen an answer to is why National Airlines was permitted to fly Miami-LHR until it's takeover in 1980 by Pan Am. Th
54 ANother : National began London service in the fall of 1973, under Bermuda I. Their rights must have been grandfathered. Maybe an ex National employee might ha
55 BCAL : IIRC Miami-LHR was not one of the original routes specifically covered by the 1946 Bermuda Agreement (Bermuda 2 was signed on 23 July 1977) and when
56 WorldTraveler : It is doubtful that even if US law was changed that wet leasing would become common in the US. Unlike elsewhere, US unions are very protective of wet
57 PavlovsDog : Thanks a lot for the background info. I wonder what would have happened if say Eastern and not Pan Am had bought National.
58 VV701 : But this US law says that aircraft operating between US airports are restricted to US registered aircraft. Hence AF and BA Concordes leased by Branif
59 WorldTraveler : for about the 3rd time, US laws regarding foreign aircraft flying within the US is not a part of how open US AIRPORTS are. Trying to argue that US air
60 VV701 : Thank you for your clarification. With respect when you said there was no mention of LHR. And I was responding to this unqualified statement which I
61 WorldTraveler : Bingo. But JFK is not the problem, LHR is. Dozens of flights have been added to JFK in the past year and new route restrictions are being removed, if
62 Post contains links ANother : No argument with that, but traffic between Member States isn't domestic, but isn't really international either. There is some interesting comparison
63 WorldTraveler : Interesting paper but it doesn’t say a whole lot we don’t know. Many of the reasons the EU has proposed a single aviation area is to remove some o
64 Lovinitflyboy : why terminal 3? BMI would never move to T3! If BII was lifted i don't think that Max Jet or Eos would move to Heathrow. With all the terminal changes
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