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Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing  
User currently offlineDanild From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 122 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 19849 times:

Hi all!

I came accross this very well made landing video of BA 777 YYZ-LHR and I noticed that seconds before landing the pilot seems to go for extra flaps. Or it sounds like it please let me know what that sound is before landing as it seems a little bit unusual that extra flaps would be aplied 2 seconds before touchdown specially on the T7 that seems to be a little slow to deploy.

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...h_Airways_Aviation_Video-6963.html

Thanks!


Danild
59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyingbronco05 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3840 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 19821 times:

That noise is associated with a pump. You heard it run before the flaps were extended and stops once the flaps are in their selected position, then you hear it again before the spoilers are deployed. You hear it once again as the spoilers are being retracted and once more when the flaps are being retracted.


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User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 19728 times:

The sound comes from pumps that are automatically activated at a pre determined altitude.

RE: What's This Noise On Landing In A 777 (by Bobster2 Aug 7 2006 in Tech Ops)


User currently offlineKeego From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 19705 times:

Great Video! It sounds like the flaps and looking closley it does look like they move but I honestly dont know for sure! An interesting point is the aircraft landed on 09R which is very rare, only a couple of months ago there was a thread on take-offs from 09L and that they hardly ever occur. If the T7 was landing on 09R does that mean 09L was being used for T/O's?

User currently offlineGlareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1295 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 19621 times:

This seems like a typical T7 landing. A related question I've always have is if the flaps still only contribute to extra lift when deployed in the furthest position or if they also function as some kind of air brake.

Anyone having a good explanation for that?

Thanks.



There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
User currently offlineCLE757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 19605 times:

Very cool video, I like the end where you can hear the flight attendant making the annoucements.


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User currently offlineDanild From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 19515 times:

Thanks for your comments... I really was interesting to hear that pump... and I'm still puzzled on why it would be activated a couple of seconds before landing.

I also looved this video and another interesting point is how smooth that landing was... the little part between the flaps that moves (sorry I don't know what it's called) barely moves and I've landed on T7's before and that thing doesn't stop moving.

Thanks to all for the comments!



Danild
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 19306 times:
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HEAD DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting Glareskin (Reply 4):
if the flaps still only contribute to extra lift when deployed in the furthest position or if they also function as some kind of air brake.

Typically, the first settings of flaps produce more lift than drag, while the lower settings produce more drag than lift.




2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineLHR27C From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 1279 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 19146 times:

Quoting Keego (Reply 3):
An interesting point is the aircraft landed on 09R which is very rare, only a couple of months ago there was a thread on take-offs from 09L and that they hardly ever occur. If the T7 was landing on 09R does that mean 09L was being used for T/O's?

Before 7am both runways are used for landings due to the very high volume of inbound traffic.



Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 19146 times:

Quoting Keego (Reply 3):
If the T7 was landing on 09R does that mean 09L was being used for T/O's?

Mixed-mode operations are used during the morning arrivals peak with simultaneous approaches on both 09R and 09L. Departures are all on 09R though. The only time 09L is used for departures is during IROPs situations where aircraft have to be cleared quickly so as to not hit the night quota.


User currently offlineBoeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 19119 times:

Quoting Danild (Reply 6):
also looved this video and another interesting point is how smooth that landing was... the little part between the flaps that moves (sorry I don't know what it's called) barely moves and I've landed on T7's before and that thing doesn't stop moving.

those are the inboard ailerons. They make the small corrections that help maintain level flight. The outboard ailerons are furthur out on the trailing edge and are also used, although on some aircraft (I dont know about the T7) they are locked during cruise.


User currently offlineEjazz From United Arab Emirates, joined May 2002, 718 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 18933 times:

At 30 feet on the B777-200 the Left and Right Hydraulic Demand Pumps and either the C1 or C2 Hydraulic Pump are commanded to run continuously, thats the noise you can hear.

Either C1 or C2 Pump is commanded on at gear down the other at 30 feet.

That is the flaperon between the flaps.



Etihad Girl, You're a great way to fly.
User currently offlineMicstatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 774 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 18836 times:

Cool video except that the author called it short finals. I hate when people call a short final, short finals.


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User currently onlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5845 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 18746 times:

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 12):
Cool video except that the author called it short finals. I hate when people call a short final, short finals.

I totally agree, and have mentioned it before. Of course, English is a second language for many, so I can bend a little in that regard; however, for a native English speaker, saying, "That aircraft is on short finals approach," in colloquial use might be considered wierd, but in writing, it would be viewed as a poor grammar construct.

As far as the topic goes, the 9's are used all of the time; it's not 'rare' to use them.



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User currently offlineDanild From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 18678 times:

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 10):
those are the inboard ailerons. They make the small corrections that help maintain level flight. The outboard ailerons are furthur out on the trailing edge and are also used, although on some aircraft (I dont know about the T7) they are locked during cruise.

Thanks for the clarification. It's good to know what a particular airplane part is called...

Thanks!



Danild
User currently offlineTraineepilot From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 18238 times:

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 4):
A related question I've always have is if the flaps still only contribute to extra lift when deployed in the furthest position or if they also function as some kind of air brake.

Lower settings of flaps give you a considerable amount of extra lift with only a slight drag penalty. Thats why less flap is used on takeoff.

However, on landing, higher flap settings is used because yes, it gives a very good increase on lift, but as a penalty, you get a quite a lot of drag and on landing, you can use this to your advantage, hence, full flaps isnt used on takeoff.

There is no point explaining how flaps generate extra lift as it is not important here, but the only thing you need to know is the the full setting of flaps, you get a lot of drag and it also lower the stalling speed which, obviously is a good thing.


User currently offlinePeterPuck From Canada, joined Jun 2004, 318 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 18159 times:

They call it "finals" in England, where English is obviously the first language.

User currently offlineMusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1055 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 18159 times:

I hate the dirty wings on this aircraft! Why cant they clean it more often? Wouldnt that be more efficient?


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User currently offlineBOE773 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 17863 times:

#3 spoiler panel did not go to full deflection on touch-down.
Got a minor prob there son. Pump less grease at those inbd and outbd flap track joints and center hinge on #5 spoiler panel. Clean the nipples off after greasing and you'll have a cleaner lookin wing. Yer starting to look like dirty AF planes.


User currently offlinePhilhyde From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 17863 times:

Quoting Danild (Reply 6):
and I'm still puzzled on why it would be activated a couple of seconds before landing.

In the thread linked above ("What's this noise...") they explain that the pumps are activated at a pre-determined height, which in this case is shortly before landing. The idea, I suppose, is that the hydraulic pressure needs of the aircraft will be higher after touchdown to operate things like spoilers, brakes, reversers, etc... There is enough hydraulic pressure to get things started but it needs to be maintained.



HoustonSpotters Admin - Canon junkie - Aviation Nut
User currently offlineDanild From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 17722 times:

Quoting Philhyde (Reply 19):
In the thread linked above ("What's this noise...") they explain that the pumps are activated at a pre-determined height, which in this case is shortly before landing. The idea, I suppose, is that the hydraulic pressure needs of the aircraft will be higher after touchdown to operate things like spoilers, brakes, reversers, etc... There is enough hydraulic pressure to get things started but it needs to be maintained.

This makes a lot of sense!!!! Thanks for the answer!!!!

Daniel



Danild
User currently offlineRobsawatsky From Canada, joined Dec 2003, 597 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 17564 times:

Quoting Traineepilot (Reply 15):
There is no point explaining how flaps generate extra lift as it is not important here, but the only thing you need to know is the the full setting of flaps, you get a lot of drag and it also lower the stalling speed which, obviously is a good thing.

Though be sure not to look for the answer in the typical school textbooks, they probably have it wrong.


User currently offlineTraineepilot From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 17564 times:

Quoting PeterPuck (Reply 16):
They call it "finals" in England, where English is obviously the first language.

Please note we dont call it finals, the term 'finals' is normally used by people who don't fly. When I did my radio licence course (which in america they dont have for the PPL licence at least) we was taught that it is always 'final', not 'finals'.


User currently offlineTraineepilot From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 17428 times:

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 17):
hate the dirty wings on this aircraft! Why cant they clean it more often? Wouldnt that be more efficient?

Yes, you are right. Having a clean and a wing that is polished reduces the boundary layer which in itself reduces drag and fuel burn.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6267 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 17265 times:

Quoting Traineepilot (Reply 22):
Please note we dont call it finals, the term 'finals' is normally used by people who don't fly. When I did my radio licence course (which in america they dont have for the PPL licence at least) we was taught that it is always 'final', not 'finals'.

So do you all over there on the other side of the pond still do "bumps an circuits" and fly behind an "airscrew?" Big grin



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
25 Traineepilot : Please note that I have just passed my aircraft technical exams relating this, and with 100% so im quite confident on the theory of lift and how flap
26 Traineepilot : From all the experience I have had from american aviation terminology, I find it hilarious how you get from A to B.
27 Cumulus : Circuits and Bumps!!!
28 Traineepilot : Please help me on this one, does that translate to touch n goes?
29 KELPkid : That's affirmative. The late Bob Stevens (who wrote the "There I Was..." cartoon in Air Force magazine) had a hillarious comic back in the day on the
30 Post contains images Traineepilot : HAHA, i love how people assume that because were british, we have a completely strange accent and terminology, lol. Id like to see that cartoon good
31 Post contains images KELPkid : Send me a PM, and I'll see if I can get you a scanned copy...my scanner wasn't working last week when I needed it
32 BOE773 : The spats on the alighting gear were being pulled along with the airscrew doing circuits and bumps on the aerodrome. Hey, do you guys over there have
33 AirWillie6475 : The CRJ has this sound also and it comes on when the flaps and spoliers are being used.
34 Socalfive : It's actually quite simple, Flaps increase wing area, increased wing area= more lift, more lift=slower stall speeds, slats and flaps increase total w
35 Traineepilot : I wouldn't be surprised knowing what government we have. I heard in America, landing fees at reasonably small airports is small or non-existant. Here
36 MPDPilot : I have always been told that flaps are used on landing to provide you with a steeper approach without the gain in airspeed is this correct? Flaps also
37 Boo25 : Yeuch, i work for BA, and we have standard announcements - which you can add a bit to, if it sounds professional - - that was totally tacky, obviously
38 BOE773 : I honestly feel sorry for you folk over there saddled with the high cost of private flying. That whole bureaucratic quagmire needs to be turfed out a
39 Post contains links and images FlyboySMF2GFK : It depends on which type of flap you're talking about. Fowlers increase camber and surface area. Plain and slotted flaps increase camber but not so m
40 Goldenshield : This has been brought up before in the tech forum. Cessnas have a flap that for the first few degrees acts as a fowler by moving out an inch or so, t
41 FlyboySMF2GFK : Right, not intimately familiar with Cessnas, but the Pipers I've flown are considered (just barely) slotted.
42 FlyDeltaJets : For a minute i thought I was looking at an AF 777 Very informative thread.
43 BOE773 : It amazes me that a fairly modern wing such as the 777 has, uses a dozen VGs (Vortex Generators) along its outbd surface. Hopefully an Engineer correc
44 TristanHNL : To add a little bit of input, yes, that part between the two sets of flaps is called the flaperon. Boeing was innovative in turning this inboard aile
45 Post contains links and images KFLLCFII : View Large View MediumPhoto © Sam Chui Appears to be the correct position for that particular spoiler...
46 Geo772 : Not #3 spoiler at all, it was number 4. The #4 spoiler is a bit different to the rest of the 'flight' spoilers on the 777 in so much as if all the fl
47 Sevenforeseven : Fly by wire, Airbus were the pioneers.
48 Post contains images Thunder9 : Actually, I believe that General Dynamics was the pioneer in that field with their relatively successful F-16 family of aircraft. -J
49 Cumulus : Rumbling a 777 onto the tarmac at LHR is a far cry from pottering around the place in a C172 (or whatever you're learning in).[Edited 2006-09-15 10:5
50 777236ER : Nope, it's a flaperon. Why? Vortex generators aren't a fix for a badly-designed wing.
51 Post contains images Aero145 : In this thread, the sound was a hydrolic pump. However, few years ago, IceAir 757s always got extra flaps while hovering over the runway before landi
52 Traineepilot : Yea, just the PPL exam at the moment but the same 'basic principle' is the same. I will be moving on to the ATPL exams shortly.
53 Boeing747_600 : TristanHNL! Thanks for the correction - I was using my (limited) 744 and 76x knowledge when I called it an inboard aileron - I do have a question tho
54 Traineepilot : Are you a pilot, I hope not. Slots and Slats dont really increase the wing surface area. A slot creates a venturi and increases the velocity of the a
55 Post contains images David L : Even excluding military aircraft, Concorde beat Airbus to that, as well. It was mostly an analogue system but Fly by Wire nontheless.
56 TristanHNL : Wow, really? Thanks for the correction. I was under the impression that their purpose is only as an aileron simply because on the gazillions of 767 f
57 Ejazz : On the B777-300ER the outboard ailerons and spoilers 5 and 10 are locked out during high speed flight. The flaperons move aft and down in proportion t
58 777236ER : From flaps 5 - 25, the inboard aileron droops as a flap. At flaps 30, it goes back up to the neutral position, presumably to add a bit more control a
59 Post contains links Atnight : This is the typical landing of a 777, and a dirty wing too!.... one thing that this video made me want to do, is to compare it with the landing of an
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