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6 Boeing 777 To TAM  
User currently offlineMatheus From Brazil, joined Nov 2003, 135 posts, RR: 7
Posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 16292 times:

I've heard from 2 distinct and trusty sources that TAM will start training its crew for T7 next month and will receive the first one, of 6, on December 2006 or January 2007.

Does anyone has more information about it (where from the airplanes come from)???

TAM today has an all fleet of Airbus for long haul flights (A330 and few ordered A350), about 60 A319/20 and about 20 F100 (use to be 50, but the new Airbuses are substituting it).

IMHO, besides the main motive of this is supply a small part of the demand that Varig left (60% of Brazil's International flights), TAM may use those T7 to negotiate prices with Airbus.

Some photos of TAM fleet:


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Photo © Normando Carvalho Jr.
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Photo © Matheus M. de F. Barbosa




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Photo © Matheus M. de F. Barbosa
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Matheus M. de F. Barbosa



Matt

[Edited 2006-09-16 05:54:09]

78 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBlsbls99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 16275 times:

Where would they be getting 6 T7s from? Did Varig have that many? And I thought all of Varig's T7s were leased, and that some of them had already been placed with new customers (Aeromexico for at least one, if not two)?


319 320 313 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 742 752 763 772 CRJ D9S ERJ EMB L10 M88 M90 SF3 AT4
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4498 posts, RR: 72
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 16228 times:

Quoting Blsbls99 (Reply 1):
Where would they be getting 6 T7s from? Did Varig have that many? And I thought all of Varig's T7s were leased, and that some of them had already been placed with new customers (Aeromexico for at least one, if not two)?

RG operated up to 8 triple sevens, two of which (PP-VRA/B) are reportedly headed for Aeromexico. That leaves another 6 up for grabs, but with the apparent state these planes are currently in, I am not sure whether JJ or any other airline would be willing to just take them over. Two of those six frames are ER versions, whereas the other 4 are non-ERs, and there are also two different engine manufacturers involved.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9739 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 16196 times:

As JJ already has the A350 on order for further expansion I don't see why JJ would operate the 777 as well. It just makes no sense when looking at the longer term. Even though it seems unlikely it is interesting.

A388


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 16082 times:
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Quoting A388 (Reply 3):
As JJ already has the A350 on order for further expansion I don't see why JJ would operate the 777 as well

maybe to cover intill the A350s arrive or just to help open expand the fleet for new routes or to upgrade aircraft.

Excellent news if true


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9739 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 16066 times:

I was wondering, how do aircraft manufacturers handle these type of situations? Do they just contact the airline and say: "Hey we've read you are interested in competing products, what else can we offer you?" How do aircraft manufacturers handle this when they know the airline is only trying to get a better offer from the aircraft manufacturer where they have already placed an order? How do aircraft manufacturers determine how far they can go with these type of deals?

A388


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32620 posts, RR: 72
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 16062 times:

From what I have heard, yes, it is true. The first pair of 777s will be used to MIA, to launch MIA-GIG. TAM will soon fly four daily flights from Miami, to four cities in Brazil - GRU, GIG, SSA, and MAO. The 777s are a "quick fix" so they can expand quickly on long-hauls.


a.
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 16016 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):

Will TAM be keeping the T7s? or is it just a short term fix?


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9739 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 16009 times:

I remember reading here in the forum that JJ plans on using the A320 on the MIA-MAO route, is this correct?

A388


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 15890 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 3):
As JJ already has the A350 on order for further expansion I don't see why JJ would operate the 777 as well. It just makes no sense when looking at the longer term. Even though it seems unlikely it is interesting.

I think airlines want to have planes from both producers when they reach a certain size, to give them some independence. The T7s would rather be for the medium term, for expansion, I believe. When Varig doesn't fly them anymore, they are easier to get than A330s or even A350s, because they would take years to deliver. Therefore the T7 is an option for quick expansion. I wish Tam to have more luck then Varig had.

BTW, did anybody besides me read that Varig could get A332s??


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 15823 times:

This rumor is spreading quickly.......and it seems to be coming from reliable sources. A couple of things to consider:

1. TAM needs longhaul capacity NOW.

2. TAM needs something bigger than the A332, especially for high demand routes from GRU/GIG to MIA and some new services to Europe.

3. While TAM has only Airbus airplanes on order, it is not TAM's goal to be an all-Airbus airline (its an a.net myth that airlines want to fly a fleet comprised of airplanes built by only one of the two major manufacturers).....if TAM has determined that the 777 would make sense for them, they will acquire the type.

4. The A332/777 longhaul combination seems to a be a winner; this combo is flown by a number of leading world carriers.

5. As for TAM and the A350XWB, the new Airbus is years away from EIS and do consider that the latest version is not yet officially launched......any commitment that TAM had to the prior A350 offering must be re-evaluated and re-negotiated. With that in mind, its very hard to say if TAM's interest in the 777 is a short term solution or now part of their long term plans.

6. The question that no one seem able to answer is where TAM is going to find six to eight (the numbers that I heard) 777s on such short notice......the ex-Varig birds are a mess and those airplanes are a mix of A market and ER versions with engines from both PW and GE. Someone mentioned that SQ is involved with this proposal.......did anyone else here that?

Quoting A388 (Reply 8):
I remember reading here in the forum that JJ plans on using the A320 on the MIA-MAO route, is this correct?

A388

That is correct....MIA-MAO is not a widebody route, but JJ did configure a couple of A320s with a J class cabin for this route.


User currently offlineAntiuser From Italy, joined May 2004, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 15715 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 7):
Will TAM be keeping the T7s? or is it just a short term fix?

My guess is, once the new A330s and A350s begin to roll out of Toulouse, the 777s will be phased out. It's hard to believe TAM would permanently introduce the 777 to a quasi-all Airbus fleet (save for the F100s) - their expansion history shows that their success in the market comes from slow, steady growth and much restraint.



Azzurri Campioni del Mondo!
User currently offlineEDDB From Germany, joined Aug 2006, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 14765 times:

I suppose 6 of a type is rather too small to operate economically, so I think it's more of an interim lease to take advantage of Varigs trouble... And they have to, cause if they don't someone else will grab Varigs slice of the cake!

User currently offlineScaledesigns From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 14704 times:

Wow,that should look nice in those colors if it happens.Who knows what will
happen with the A350 ordered by TAM??They were supposed to be getting
a A330 sized replacement.Now its going to be a 777 sized replacement.
Plus its 8 years away anyway.Does anybody know if the creditors have
taken back all the Varig 777s and flown them out.



F1 Tommy
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8289 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 14638 times:
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Unlikely but could Alitalia be going broke and return their 777 ? They have some real 777 beauties with GE90 engines -200ER version.

User currently offlineDonzilasse From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 14319 times:

Last report from Felipe said that the Varig T7,s with the exception of A/B are still sitting at GIG but I cannot believe that they will be operational as quick as December. They need a lot of work and only two of them are ER,s.
It would be nice to see the T7 in TAM livery so I will hope that this is true.
Maybe JJMNGR or Lipe can share some info on this.

Lasse


User currently offlineTommy777 From Norway, joined May 2005, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 13513 times:

I sat next to a UA employee on a flight down to FLL last week. He said the 2 ex UA RG 777s were parked at MIA and would maybe be leased by UA again.

Anyone have any info?


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 13482 times:

Quoting Tommy777 (Reply 16):
I sat next to a UA employee on a flight down to FLL last week. He said the 2 ex UA RG 777s were parked at MIA and would maybe be leased by UA again.

Anyone have any info?

I have heard rumors to the same effect.......it would make sense and UA could probably get a reasonable deal on the airplanes, especially the "unwanted" A market airplanes which UA can put to use on IAD-Europe routes.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13111 times:

My guess is that the 222ER models will go back to UA.

That leaves 4 A models and 2 UFO going TAM. Where would TAM get the other 2? If TAM is pleased with the 777, I would expect a sub fleet of 777's.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32620 posts, RR: 72
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 12945 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 8):
I remember reading here in the forum that JJ plans on using the A320 on the MIA-MAO route, is this correct?

TAM flies Miami-Manaus-Belem-Fortaleza daily with a 2-class A320.



a.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30626 posts, RR: 84
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 12869 times:
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Quoting A388 (Reply 3):
As JJ already has the A350 on order for further expansion I don't see why JJ would operate the 777 as well. It just makes no sense when looking at the longer term. Even though it seems unlikely it is interesting.

As a short-term lease to offer interim capacity until the A350's arrive, it makes perfect sense to me. They're available now, so JJ would not have to wait for additional A332s or A333s, even if Airbus offered them an exceptional lease deal for interim lift.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 7):
Will TAM be keeping the T7s? or is it just a short term fix?

I say the latter.

Quoting Antiuser (Reply 11):
My guess is, once the new A330s and A350s begin to roll out of Toulouse, the 777s will be phased out.

Agreed. This is just interim lift.

Quoting EDDB (Reply 12):
I suppose 6 of a type is rather too small to operate economically, so I think it's more of an interim lease to take advantage of Varigs trouble... And they have to, cause if they don't someone else will grab Varigs slice of the cake!

 checkmark 

Quoting Tommy777 (Reply 16):
I sat next to a UA employee on a flight down to FLL last week. He said the 2 ex UA RG 777s were parked at MIA and would maybe be leased by UA again.

They certainly could use them.  Smile


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12609 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
Agreed. This is just interim lift.

I must that I am amazed that you are so sure about this......if TAM gets the 777s and is impressed by their performance, there is a very good chance that TAM could order the 777 for its operations. TAM is not married to Airbus, and the 777 is one hell of an airplane. As for TAM and the A350XWB, as I said above, unless and until Airbus officially launches the newly revised A350 and until TAM re-confirms their order for the A350 (which is a different plane than TAM originally committed to), anything is possible.

I said it above and will say it again.....the A332/777 is a very strong combination for long haul operations.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12430 times:

The important thing at the moment is that JJ can start serving profitable long haul routes that no other Brazilian carrier is serving at the moment. The leasing of additional widebody aircraft (whether from one manufacturer or the other) is an urgent necessity, so this is a good move for JJ. And the 772ER is a fantastic plane.

While my initial impression is that the 772ERs will be an interim solution until JJ can get more A332s and, eventually A350XWBs, this is also a good opportunity for JJ to evaluate the Boeings and perhaps consider operating both planes side by side in the future.

Can someone remind me the new proposed routes that JJ will open? MXP, MAD maybe? I do not recall.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12430 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
BTW, did anybody besides me read that Varig could get A332s??

Yes.

Quoting EDDB (Reply 12):
I suppose 6 of a type is rather too small to operate economically

I disagree. There are examples showing it can be done.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30626 posts, RR: 84
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12376 times:
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Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 21):
I must that I am amazed that you are so sure about this......if TAM gets the 777s and is impressed by their performance, there is a very good chance that TAM could order the 777 for its operations.

Only if the 772A and 772ER show superior performance to the A359, which I honestly don't see happening. If JJ wants these planes for "just a bit", as I believe, then they can save money by outsourcing the maintenance to another 777 operator as well as do a "power by the hour" deal with the engine manufacturer, they don't need to hire/train maintenance staff for the heavy stuff. And if they wet lease with an RG crew, they don't even need to train their own crews to fly it and then, when they're done with the planes, just walk away.

Quote:
TAM is not married to Airbus, and the 777 is one hell of an airplane. As for TAM and the A350XWB, as I said above, unless and until Airbus officially launches the newly revised A350 and until TAM re-confirms their order for the A350 (which is a different plane than TAM originally committed to), anything is possible.

Sure, but with six frames, it looks to me that JJ does not require a lot of long-term lift. If they were securing a dozen or more frames, then I'd be worried if I was Airbus because at that point, Boeing could come in with a hard 777 and/or 787 offer. Heck, Boeing probably will, anyway, but that just means Airbus might have to work a bit harder...


25 Matheus : As I heard, the T7 will fly for TAM just becuase dont have more avaiable A330 on the market. But its very close to it. TAM is far the biggest Airbus o
26 MAH4546 : MIA-GIG, CDG-GIG, and MXP-GRU in the short term.
27 Antiuser : If I recall correctly, they already have reiterated their A350 order.
28 LipeGIG : I can't believe, VRB (772ER / GE) VRE (772ER / PW) VRI/VRJ (772 PW) are at GIG. I can't see VRD today, but people from the airport says it keeps with
29 AlitaliaMD11 : VRE actually. As of last Saturday she was still parked next to the American hangar. I hope we see TAM at MAD in the near future.
30 Jfk777 : Tam has a bunch of A330's leased to Qatar, when are they coming home?
31 JJMNGR : Guys, This is not a rumor. It is a fact. I spend last weeks working together with engineering department and making some exercises where to put the ai
32 Dutchjet : Can you confirm that JJ will be taking the six remaining ex-RG 772s? (2 772A/GE, 2 772A/PW, 2 772ER/PW)
33 JJMNGR : There were 03 A332 leased to Ethyhad and not Qatar. Today, 15th September, PT-MVE is flying back to GRU and the hole 03 totally re-integrated into TA
34 Post contains images Stitch : Well don't keep us in suspense as to whose they are...
35 Dutchjet : Well, this thread just got very, very interesting.......what can you tell us? As I stated above, when I heard the rumor (which you are confirming), S
36 LipeGIG : Thanks, all the time i change VRE and VRF ! Two has already come back, one more is expected during the end of September/first days of October, so by
37 Jfk777 : What large airline with a big 777 fleet would lease 6 777? Japan Air or ANA, British Airways, Emirates, Air France, UA, AA, Malaysian or SIA ? I would
38 LTU932 : SQ would make sense. Their first 772ERs, 9V-SQA to SQD were built in 1997 and as per SQ's fleet age policy, they should be due for phaseout soon.
39 Jfk777 : LTU, SIA has too many airplanes today not to have some that are 10 or more years old. With the delay in A380 some 744 are stayings bit longer. The onl
40 MAH4546 : What route from MAO will use the 332? GRU-MAO?
41 LipeGIG : Probably GRU-MAO as MAO-MIA will need aircraft overnight. They will keep the A332 from LHR route parked at GRU so, probably they will use to look for
42 JJMNGR : The T7s are not ex-RG´s. I don´t known where they are going to come from but who is dealing this told me they are not ex-RG Yes, it is going to be
43 LipeGIG : Thanks for clarify this question. So it seems Tam will keep 1 A332 during the day at GRU for maintenance purposes and as a reserve plane. Also, cargo
44 EddieDude : Wasn't MEX allocated to Gol? Many a.netters have mentioned imminent MAO-MEX service by Gol. I'd love to see JJ here instead, though.
45 JJMNGR : Unfortunately, the rates were around R$3,30, R$3,50 por kg and after MTA entered the market, they started to sell for R$1,80....that´seally totally
46 LipeGIG : Eddie, Gol for sure will use Fortaleza Agreement frequencies (ex-billateral), and yesterday AFAIK they change plans in favor of LIM-MEX ! Felipe
47 LipeGIG : For sure, enjoy this special moment with your family ! I will be moving from Sao Paulo to New York later next month, by the end of month lets try to
48 RobK : Only throwing a few ideas around but as SIA has 6 new 773ERs due in the next 6 months from Boeing 9V-SWA/B/C/E/F/G and 772ERs 9V-SQA/B/C/D/E/F are get
49 MAH4546 : Thanks for the info. Are you able to update us on the status of MIA-GIG? Have a great time in Miami, too. Wish I could be there right now...stuck in
50 Blsbls99 : What about Austrian's 777s? I believe they were using them on the Australian/Asian runs that they have decided to drop. Not sure that they would need
51 Jfk777 : My bet is Malaysian, they can spare 6 similar 777.
52 Hardiwv : TAM long-haul expansion plans: LHR-GRU (to start next month), GRU-MXP, GIG-MIA, and GIG-CDG to start with. TAM has a multitude of international desti
53 JJMNGR : Felipe, On the inaugural flight to LHR I will be on board to spend a week there following all operations and I will fly from LHR to JFK. By the time I
54 PHKLM : I realize that with the LHR flight it becomes very viable to fly LHR-EZE with JJ via GRU. The flight times are excellent, I've checked some prices for
55 Jog : Thanks for the info, Matheus. In addition, I've heard that TAM will also hire former RG crews which are already trained on the T7s. I guess with the
56 LipeGIG : Hi Jog! MXP and CDG: ANAC granted the frequencies but the Rio Judge has blocked the decision. Last friday the Superior Justice Court (STJ in Portugues
57 JJMNGR : Jog, Ref FRA, we never know when StarAlliance is going to get rid of RG....it is good to have all figures.
58 Jog : Thanks for the update, Felipe! Sure... I have the star alliance screen saver running on my office PC as it is nice to see how air traffic varies aroun
59 MCOflyer : Agreed or AF. They both can spare 6 T77's. Hopefully the crews will be permanent hires. MCOflyer
60 Antiuser : They'll probably hire the ex-RG 777 crews that were let go a while ago.
61 Hardiwv : Part of RG crew are already hired by both RG and G3, more to come in future recruitment of both airlines. Rgs,
62 Aerokiwi : Wasn't there a rumour floating around that Air France was returning 4 772s off leases?
63 Jfk777 : Tam runs a neat operation, they would take six 777 with the same configuration, engines, seats etc. They would not have 4 P&W and 3 GE 777. That is wh
64 YULWinterSkies : Problem is that the 772 at AF has a very high utilization rate and they seem to be MUCH needed. What new airplane are they getting right now? The 773
65 WorldTraveler : do we know what 772s at any airline are available? I'm a little surprised there would be many 777s available at this time.
66 Post contains links Fyano773 : Unlikely, since AF is installing C3-EFB on its entire fleet of T7 (42 in service and 13 to be delivered): http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2006/q3
67 JJMNGR : Now this threat is going to get fire!!!! I am in MIA and I heard people here saying that some of the T7 s TAM is looking for, have some problems with
68 Post contains links and images Antiuser : True, but if TAM takes ex-RG MD-11s, the cabins will be well below JJ's usual level of quality and service... View Large View Medium Photo © Marcio
69 Post contains links and images American777 : Here it is!!!!! Modified Airliner Photos:Design © Joe PerezTemplate © Jing-Kai Chiou JOE.
70 Post contains links and images LipeGIG : Ex-Varig: PP-VRB - 777-200ER - GE PP-VRC - 777-200 - GE PP-VRD - 777-200 - GE PP-VRE - 777-200ER - PW PP-VRF - 777-200ER - PW PP-VRI - 777-200 - PW P
71 JJMNGR : Guys, For the 2007 budged appears only 04 B777 on the fleet as seems 02 of them were really in bad, bad shape as per information from engineering dept
72 PHKLM : This sounds like a very unwise decision, only 4 Boeing frames in TAM's Airbus fleet would lead to a very sub-optimal situation. Furthermore, the refe
73 Jog : Thanks for the update, Richard! Together with the 2 arriving A332 that would at least be enough to do the half-official plans and fly to MXP, as well
74 LipeGIG : 04 772 it's a clear info that Tam is really looking for VRE/VRF/VRI/VRJ. Bristol is not looking for new customers and VRI/VRJ can fly in 2 weeks with
75 JJMNGR : The information about daylight service to JFK on 15DEC I posted before. Another interesting thing that is the 2007 budged is to open flights from GRU
76 LipeGIG : 02 on 2007, 02 on 2008 and 02 on 2009, i believe you imagine i told only the 4 on the upcoming years. Very true. I heard today also from another sour
77 Post contains images Jog : I just tried to come up with an example of a possible schedule without having any concrete information on the 777. But the capacity shift in this sch
78 LipeGIG : Not seven, only 4. Varig Log uses some frequencies with their two or three weekly flights GRU/GIG-FRA. As your post, if RG return their second daily
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