Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's  
User currently offline777DadandJr From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1516 posts, RR: 12
Posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2895 times:

Hey Guys,
Just heard a blurb on the news that MDT (Harrisburg Int'l) has recieved a $400,000 federal grant to help provide incentives to attract LCC's to this tremendously under-utilized, state of the art airport.

This is great news for those of us here in the mid-state. Any program to help spur traffic at MDT is ok with me.

I do have to admit that I took the news with a grain of salt, being that this is an election year. Senator Arlen Spector and Rep Tim Holden were trotted out for the media, big check in hand, showing that they can "bring home the bacon!"

That being said, (and I have said it many time on this board before), MDT needs to be used, and could be a tremendous asset to the region, if only the flying public would get out of the BWI/PHL flying rut!

I hope Fred Testa spends this money wisely!

Russ  wave 


My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB757capt From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1421 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2836 times:

They should call AirTran up and talk to them.


The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
User currently offline777DadandJr From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1516 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2802 times:

Quoting B757capt (Reply 1):
They should call AirTran up and talk to them.

They did, last year. 24 hours before they were to make the public announcement, AirTran backed out.

Russ



My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
User currently offlineBatonOps From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 752 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2784 times:

Quoting B757capt (Reply 1):
They should call AirTran up and talk to them.

I don't think they will be calling AirTran again. Jetblue is the latest rumor...

I still think F9 to DEN would be a good choice.


User currently offline777DadandJr From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1516 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2779 times:

Quoting BatonOps (Reply 3):
I still think F9 to DEN would be a good choice

I concure. I think that would be a good choice.

Quoting BatonOps (Reply 3):
Jetblue is the latest rumor...

Is there any more to this rumor, than has been tossed about for a year or more now?

Russ



My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9268 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2762 times:

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 4):
Quoting BatonOps (Reply 3):
I still think F9 to DEN would be a good choice

I concure. I think that would be a good choice.

Yeah, this will open MDT to the West man! That would be a real shot in the arm for MDT!

F9 wouldn't have to worry about any competition on a MDT-DEN run; there is none! The current furthest west destination from MDT is DFW, courtesy of AA Eagle. It would be a LCC, mainline, and a true western city to fly into. DEN is a superb terminal with excellent connection on F9 out of there...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offline777DadandJr From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1516 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2733 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 5):
DEN is a superb terminal with excellent connection on F9 out of there.

It always surprised me that UA never offered an MDT-DEN flight. With their DEN hub, I would think that they would at least offer 1x daily.

Russ



My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2723 times:

Quoting 777DadandJr (Thread starter):
Just heard a blurb on the news that MDT (Harrisburg Int'l) has recieved a $400,000 federal grant

Am I the only one that believes this is a waste of tax dollars? (Not just Harrisburg but all over the country)


User currently offline777DadandJr From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1516 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2717 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 7):
Am I the only one that believes this is a waste of tax dollars?

Probably not.
Though, my practical side says yes, it is, my selfish side says, no, MDT needs this. But, as I said in my original post, it is also an election year.

Hey, if Alaska can get millions for a bridge to nowhere, what's a little 400 grand for MDT gonna hurt?

Russ



My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
User currently offlineB757capt From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1421 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2691 times:

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 2):

Wow i had no clue. was any real reason given?>



The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
User currently offline777DadandJr From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1516 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2653 times:

Quoting B757capt (Reply 9):
Wow i had no clue. was any real reason given?

I don't recall specifically. AirTran just decided that MDT wouldn't be a good fit for them at that time. Though, I don't know why they went through all the motions and backed out at the last minute.
It was kind of a pisser, because we had just lost Trans Meridian earlier that same year.

We'll have to wait and see what happens with B6.
Russ



My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
User currently offlineBatonOps From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 752 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2632 times:

Quoting B757capt (Reply 9):
Wow i had no clue. was any real reason given?>

FL blamed the lack of aircraft at the time but then announced service to HPN the next day. I think something happened between MDT and FL for them to pull out right before the announcement.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 5):
The current furthest west destination from MDT is DFW, courtesy of AA Eagle.

From what I hear the MDT-DFW is doing well in its first couple of weeks.


User currently offlineGr8SlvrFlt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1609 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2565 times:

HPN is slot/gate restricted, I believe. When the chance came up suddenly, AirTran jumped on the opportunity that was unlikely to come again. AirTran was also buidling MDW and IND at the same time. I don't know how hard MDT took the change of plans but I imagine if AirTran was that close to starting service, they're like still interested. Plus if AirTran were to start MDT, you can bet Delta Connection would add a ton of new flights as well!

User currently offlineBatonOps From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 752 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2556 times:

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 12):
Plus if AirTran were to start MDT, you can bet Delta Connection would add a ton of new flights as well!

Delta said they would bring back mainline serivce to MDT if FL entered the market.

It would be nice if FL came back...there is big market here that could handle a low cost carrier.


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11569 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2551 times:

Quoting BatonOps (Reply 13):
there is big market here that could handle a low cost carrier.

Ugh. I hate this program. Harrisburg is surrounded by so-called LCCs. BWI, ABE, and PHL all have so-called LCCs within a 2 hour drive, and there's legacy service at MDT itself.

I don't see why people are okay with the government upsetting the free market like this. I bet it will be like FAT all over again - the airport takes the grant, gives it to the airline, which then takes the money and reneges on its promise.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9268 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2506 times:

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 12):
HPN is slot/gate restricted, I believe. When the chance came up suddenly, AirTran jumped on the opportunity that was unlikely to come again. AirTran was also buidling MDW and IND at the same time. I don't know how hard MDT took the change of plans but I imagine if AirTran was that close to starting service, they're like still interested. Plus if AirTran were to start MDT, you can bet Delta Connection would add a ton of new flights as well!

I guess that explains why FL went to White Plains as opposed to MDT; I take it they were really interested in HPN as well as MDT, but given the restrictions at HPN, why wait... Makes sense, but dammit MDT could use a shot in the arm from a LCC...

Quoting BatonOps (Reply 13):
Delta said they would bring back mainline serivce to MDT if FL entered the market.

MD88 MDT-ATL? That would be nice...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5844 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2399 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
I bet it will be like FAT all over again - the airport takes the grant, gives it to the airline, which then takes the money and reneges on its promise.

FAT-DEN on F9 started slow but has now been seeing loads in the 87-90% range. I would not be surprised to see Frontier look to increase capacity on the route in the not too distant future.

That will fulfill the original intent of the grant of creating a long-term presence by a low-fare carrier which is what Fresno wrote as the first goal in their application.
In conclusion, the funds requested will be focused on achieving permanent
improvements in air service for the region.
1. The Central California region currently has no access to a low fare carrier
network. This grant will rectify that challenge.


I would think it is better that F9 took time to develop the route and stay long-term now that the grant period is complete.

It would have been a waste of money if they had taken the revenue guarantee for a year and flown a larger aircraft then left when the grant ran out last month.

Instead FAT is getting a more permanent presence which is the real promise that was sought.

FYI, UA has been seeing loads at 85 to 90% also.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently onlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26807 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2390 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
I don't see why people are okay with the government upsetting the free market like this.

Um, figure out where there is an actual free market first before casting stones at a piddly $400,000 grant to help make an under-utilized airport relieve traffic from a freakishly busy corridor.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11569 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2330 times:

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 16):
It would have been a waste of money if they had taken the revenue guarantee for a year and flown a larger aircraft then left when the grant ran out last month.

They told the government that the grant they were requesting would be used to bring jet aircraft in. That was a lie. The money should be returned, imo.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
Um, figure out where there is an actual free market first before casting stones at a piddly $400,000 grant to help make an under-utilized airport relieve traffic from a freakishly busy corridor.

Come on guy.  Smile This at MDT is only $400k, but it's still part of a $25M program that is designed to do this at various places. And what makes you think that it will relieve any traffic from elsewhere? Who from ABE, PHL, BWI, etc. will go to MDT to fly? As I said earlier, they already have LCCs.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offline777DadandJr From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1516 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2325 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
Who from ABE, PHL, BWI, etc. will go to MDT to fly?

I think the main objective is to keep passenger (locally)who are now going to BWI/PHL, at MDT instead.

Russ



My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
User currently onlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26807 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2292 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
This at MDT is only $400k, but it's still part of a $25M program that is designed to do this at various places. And what makes you think that it will relieve any traffic from elsewhere? Who from ABE, PHL, BWI, etc. will go to MDT to fly?

777DadandJR hit it on the head. People who drive from Harrisburg, Latrobe, Hershey, Lancaster, etc. will have the option of using MDT and saving time as opposed to slugging their way over to PHL, PIT or BWI. As it is, PHL has lots of delay problems and is over capacity while you can bowl down the runway at MDT. The program actually helps correct a problem with the market.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5844 posts, RR: 28
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days ago) and read 2256 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
They told the government that the grant they were requesting would be used to bring jet aircraft in. That was a lie. The money should be returned, imo.

Many times government changes plans in order to accomplish the main goal and keep to the budgeted amount. Think road and building plans for example.

So if bids for an airport construction project come in over budget, instead of making changes to the plan to get it built then all of the money should go back to the Federal Govt? Hhmm interesting thought. Maybe we should complain to Congress about those projects.

Lets look at what the FAT grant listed.

Quote:
Intent of The Grant
In this proposal, the Airport is requesting a grant of $1 million for a period of one year to attract and support viable low-fare service at Fresno Yosemite International. Preliminary discussions have been undertaken with the highest levels of management at Frontier Airlines for implementation of service to that carrier’s Denver hub. If implemented, this will immediately provide low-fare service to virtually all major destinations in the Northeast, Midwest, and Deep South.

Nothing in there about aircraft size. The primary goal is attract and support low-fare servce. That is also what the DOT commented on as the reason they selected the grant:

Quote:
This year, our awards to Fresno, Knoxville, and Charleston (South Carolina) will enable these communities to pursue their goal to secure lowfare air services. Fresno seeks service by Frontier to Denver and Knoxville and Charleston seek service by Air Tran. These awards will facilitate the first ever low-cost service at these communities or a restoration of low-fare service, providing a material benefit to a large segment of the public.

The DOTs reason for the grant also was accomplished (nothing about size mattering  Wink ), so  checkmark 

Fresno said they were asking Frontier for 2 daily roundtrips which they thought would be operated on the larger sized aircraft. The Horizon operated CR7 option did not exist in 2003 only Mesa operated CRJs. Given industry changes in the 2 years between grant and start it became a better option to accomplish the low-fare goal.

The CR7 has developed the FAT market so that now it appears Frontier will stay. That avoids the waste of funds that would occur if the flights stopped when the grant funds ended as happened elsewhere. And more capacity will probably be added as the route matures.

But the thing is I don't think you care. You like using this one as your poster child for problems because of one item in the entire application.

Forget the primary goal, it must have failed. Or maybe you just like to  stirthepot   Wink

Actually I think there are a lot of SCASD grants that you and I would agree on were bad. There have been times I think the DOT stretched reason just to allocate the funds.

But we will always disagree about FAT because I see that it accomplished the primary goal and you feel that does not matter.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9268 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2228 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
777DadandJR hit it on the head. People who drive from Harrisburg, Latrobe, Hershey, Lancaster, etc. will have the option of using MDT and saving time as opposed to slugging their way over to PHL, PIT or BWI. As it is, PHL has lots of delay problems and is over capacity while you can bowl down the runway at MDT. The program actually helps correct a problem with the market.

Bingo! On a similar note, the airport authority at PIT has been trying to lure LCCs to compete with US to lower fares to keep pax from driving to CLE... The same thing that MDT is trying to do basically. Since those efforts have begin, PIT now has WN and B6, along with USA3k, and Midwest Airways. (They also have Airtran, but that was while US still had the fortress hub forcing FL to drastically downsize...) Still, PIT has a quite a number of LCCs to increase competition, and MDT is essentially trying to do the same...

Figure this. I looked up US fares to see how MDT and PHL-PIT compare. It is more than twice as expensive to fly out of MDT as it is out of PHL. I believe it is the same flying elsewhere on some of those flights as well, considering that all the carriers at MDT are legacy carriers. Bring in a LCC to increase competition, drive fares lower, keep MDT flyers local. This could even drive up legacy service depending on demand. 777DadandJr said to me that DL would bring back mainline (to ATL, I would imagine) if FL enters MDT...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently onlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26807 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2223 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 22):
Bring in a LCC to increase competition, drive fares lower, keep MDT flyers local.

Not to mention the Southwest Effect and the subsequent market growth.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineBatonOps From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 752 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2209 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 22):
777DadandJr said to me that DL would bring back mainline (to ATL, I would imagine) if FL enters MDT...

In January it was rumored that when FL was going to announce MDT that DL would announce the return of mainline service from MDT-ATL. I'm sure that would be the case again if FL decides to give MDT another shot.

MDT is an untapped market and is just waiting for that one carrier to take the plunge.


25 Post contains images Steeler83 : A chain reaction like you wouldn't believe, man...
26 D L X : Selective quoting. Please provide the link to the file. It was also about getting more flights East because Fresno authorities were annoyed that near
27 Steeler83 : that was not my point to compare populations in the given metro areas... I was saying that PIT tried to keep its local pax, as many of them were flee
28 D L X : Of course... I know that wasn't your point - it's MY point. MDT cannot model itself after PIT because MDT serves a much smaller market than PIT does.
29 Steeler83 : Right, the Harrisburgh-York-Lancaster Metro is roughly 1.5 million people. There is roughly that same amount in Allegheny County alone...
30 Tango-Bravo : A mere pittance when weighed against the de facto subsidies and impunity from anti-competition schemes that the legacies can throw at any LCC who dar
31 Post contains images Steeler83 : Uhhhh... I am catching this error before anyone else does and me for it later It's "Harrisburg" without that "H" at the end of it Uh, sure whatever
32 Supa7E7 : MDT's leader (US) could well decide to slash fares at MDT. They are an LCC now, when it suits their mood.
33 Steeler83 : Sure, but do they have a reason/incentive for lowering their fares now? They don't have any competition on the routes out of MDT, nor does any airlin
34 777DadandJr : I don't think they could afford to slash fares. I'm sure it costs US plenty to run 10x, yes, that's right, 10x daily to PHL !!! 90 miles, 10 flights!
35 Tango-Bravo : They can afford to if they have enough captive markets elsewhere to "cross-subsidize" (that's Michael Boyd-speak for fare gouging) their losses in wh
36 ChrisNH : This is the Genie you can't put back in the bottle. I can see a couple airports up here in New England--Worcester and Pease--angling for some money un
37 B777-700 : Here's a crazy idea...If they have all this money to blow, how about giving that money to subsidize the legacies that already serve these second teir
38 COERJ : UA would not fly from MDT to DEN. DEN is a west coast hub that serves small and large markets in the west, with only select large markets in the east.
39 FlyPNS1 : Because the legacies aren't willing to do this. This idea has been floated before, but the legacies haven't shown any interest.
40 B777-700 : So the legacies would rather have a subsidized LCC come in and destroy their yields? I'm gonna have to ask you for documentation on that claim.
41 Steeler83 : So I suppose that MDT-ORD is well served by AA and UA, assuming the fares are reasonable... AA has a large station; DL has a big one as well at JFK..
42 Post contains images 777DadandJr : Current fare is $322.00 (IMO, not "reasonable") BWI-ORD, currently, $138.00, PHL-ORD, $237.00 Can you see why locals flock to "the other airport" Yes
43 FlyPNS1 : Have you seen the way legacies run themselves over the last few decades? Have you noticed that almost all of them have gone BK? Nobody said the folks
44 Steeler83 : What the hell?!?!?!?!?!?! You might as well fly to ROME! Apparently not!!! *scoffs* And is UA or any legacy willing to do such a thing? The way I see
45 Post contains images B777-700 : The gov't subsidy thing is a recent trend. Besides, this is apples and oranges, and your remark wouldn't apply in these cases. It's one thing when an
46 Gsoflyer : When are we going to learn, subsidies don't work and are anti-capitalism.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service posted Fri Aug 25 2006 18:56:23 by Tys777
Supermarkets To Sell LCC Tickets! posted Wed Aug 30 2006 11:08:14 by Cumulus
SAA Planning To Launch A LCC posted Wed Apr 12 2006 13:00:32 by SA7700
How Long In Advance To European LCC Load Fares? posted Thu May 26 2005 00:45:43 by Ibhayi
Sterling Airways To Start LCC Route CPH-MCO! posted Tue Apr 26 2005 09:33:24 by OYRJA
Iberia To Buy A Lcc? posted Tue Apr 19 2005 15:40:06 by Dme
Mexican Airport Group To Start LCC? posted Wed Apr 13 2005 16:36:52 by MAC1
Are BA About To Start A LCC From LGW? posted Thu Mar 3 2005 17:55:18 by 7LBAC111
ATA's Misfortunes, Could It Happen To Another LCC? posted Sun Jan 16 2005 18:53:05 by Juventus
Triple Size Of LTN To Attract FR posted Thu Nov 18 2004 14:55:22 by Richardw