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AA Parks Seven A300s, Extends Leases  
User currently offlineQQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2282 posts, RR: 13
Posted (8 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 13426 times:

Fresh from the the rumor mill, AA is temporarily parking seven A300s between now and the middle of November, when additional seasonal/holiday flying picks up for Florida and the Caribbean. In addition, the leases that were to expire on the A300s next year and 2008 have been extended to 2010. Take it for what you will, it came from the pilot's rumor mill.

There may be some truth to it as AA is offering one month leaves for October to flight attendants based at JFK and MIA (both A300 bases) and other bases as they pull back flying between summer and the holidays.


The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
81 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2924 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13168 times:

Do they park them every year during Sept. and Oct.? What's different about this year than the years prior? Are they reducing any flying outside the seasonal adjustments?

The lease extentions don't surprise me. However the fact that they were only extended 2 years tells me AA has a plan to replace them by 2010.


User currently offlineWillyj From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13139 times:

Hopefully they'll use the time to update the interiors. 2 years ago I saw a picture of an AA AB6 with an updated first class - similar seats to the 738s - and newer TV monitors, are they finished with that? The last time I was on an AB6 I was in Business flying down to the caribbean and the seat was in horrible shape. There was also a panel missing on the side wall - doesn't instill a lot of confidence!

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13139 times:

Interesting rumor.......one that makes sense.

1. Traffic to Florida and the Caribbean falls off dramatically during "Hurricane season"......its back to school, the jewish holidays, no one on vacation, lousy weather and the hurricane issue in Florida/Caribbean, still reasonable weather in the Northeast US, and the Florida 2nd home crowd has not yet headed south, etc, etc. Traffic is light, and airlines do cut back flights ......the only other choice is filling up the airplanes with pax flying for $49 which is financial suicide. Since AA does not send the A300s much futher than the Caribbean and Florida, it does make sense to park the airplanes for a couple of months.....maybe AA will use the down time to do some maintainance checks and upgrades on the airplanes, maybe not. The airplanes will be back in the air for the Thanksgiving rush when the Florida/Caribbean routes pick up.

2. Re the extension of the A300 leases.....again, it makes sense and I was waiting to hear something definite. AA simply cannot start returning the A300s to lessors....what will replace them? The A300s may be getting older and they may be out-of-style, but AA moves a lot of pax and cargo on those airplanes and they are cash cows. The 2010 date is interesting......I wonder if, in 2010, AA will start accepting delivery of some new airplanes (say to be ordered 787s) that will replace the Airbus fleet?

Thanks for sharing this rumor.....lets see what happens?


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13110 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 1):
Do they park them every year during Sept. and Oct.? What's different about this year than the years prior? Are they reducing any flying outside the seasonal adjustments?

Let me take a guess......in the past, the September-November 15 was (in)famous for major fare wars on the NYC-FLorida routes and lots of bargains on the Caribbean routes.....with high oil prices (although things did get better this past week) maybe AA does not want to play this game and instead will simply slash capacity on the routes during the couple month period?


User currently offlineYVRtoYYZ From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13073 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 1):
However the fact that they were only extended 2 years tells me AA has a plan to replace them by 2010.

Can we say B787?

-YVRtoYYZ


User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3483 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13030 times:

Quoting YVRtoYYZ (Reply 5):
Can we say B787?

Don't think so. 787 delivery slots are filled until 2012, so no 787s for AA before then.

Jeremy


User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32779 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12981 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 6):
Don't think so. 787 delivery slots are filled until 2012, so no 787s for AA before then.

If AA wants them, they'll find a way to get them when they want them - like taking Primaris' delivery slots. Not that it will be very easy, but if AA is in a situation where they decide they want 787s by 2009, I doubt Boeing is going to say "oh well. Screw you even though you are one of our most important customers."

[Edited 2006-09-16 20:28:36]


a.
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12931 times:

I may be wrong , but it makes more sense to just retire the A300s and use additional 763s until AA is able to acquire 787s. These A300s must be getting rusty by now and operating costs would be higher than 767-300s, right?


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11609 posts, RR: 61
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12891 times:

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 8):
I may be wrong , but it makes more sense to just retire the A300s and use additional 763s until AA is able to acquire 787s.

But for the fact that AA doesn't have any more 767s to spare, let alone enough to cover the flying currently being done by all 34 A300s, or even just a few.

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 8):
These A300s must be getting rusty by now and operating costs would be higher than 767-300s, right?

Some of American's 767-300s are also getting a bit long in the tooth, as they were aquired right around the same time as the oldest A300s. The A300s are maintenance nightmares, but they serve a role that no other plane AA has can currently fill, and thus AA tolerates their technical issues.


User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16865 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12847 times:

If AA wants to replace their A300s with 787s starting in 2010 they need to make an oder soon, AA could probably get a couple of production slots for 787s between 2010-2012 (perhaps through somebody like ILFC).


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12847 times:

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 8):
I may be wrong , but it makes more sense to just retire the A300s and use additional 763s until AA is able to acquire 787s. These A300s must be getting rusty by now and operating costs would be higher than 767-300s, right?

1. Exactly where is AA going to come up with "additional" 763s to operate the routes that are now flown with the A300?

2. The 763 cannot carry as many passengers as the A300.......not to mention that the A300 can haul far more cargo than the 763. If anything, AA would have to misuse their 772 fleet to cover for the A300, and that is certainly not happening.

3. Rusty? Are you saying that AA is flying airplanes that are rusty? Are you kidding?

4. AA's operating costs on the A300s are excellent......especially when considering the high density layout installed on those airplanes and the amount of cargo carried.

5. You do realize that AA's A300 fleet was delivered in the late 1980s and early 1990s......making them younger than AA's 762 fleet and about the same age as some of AA's 763ERs.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
If AA wants them, they'll find a way to get them when they want them - like taking Primaris' delivery slots.

Exactly, if AA signed up for the 787, Boeing would find a way for AA to have them by 2010.....and is the 787 line really sold out until 2012, thats news to me. The 2012 date, as far as I recall, is the date that the 787-10 would be introduced to service if Boeing determines that it wants to proceed with that variant.


User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16865 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12821 times:

Why can't AA get a couple of turns with their 777s from JFK and MIA to SDQ, STI, SJU etc..


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11609 posts, RR: 61
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12746 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 12):
Why can't AA get a couple of turns with their 777s from JFK and MIA to SDQ, STI, SJU etc..

They are used, occasionally, as subs on these routes and during the winter AA sends the 777 down on BOS-SDQ on Saturdays when its not running the morning flight BOS-LHR. Generally, though, the 777s don't have enough seats, and what seats they have are in a completely uneconomic density configuration for these markets. The plane is way to premium-oriented for these routes. Example: of the A300's 266 seats, only 6% are premium; on the 777s, 21% of the 245 seats are premium. Even if you sold the 35 Business Class seats as coach and let elites/full-fare pax upgrade, you've still lost a total of 21 Economy Class seats.


User currently offlineQQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2282 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12440 times:

On the 787 front, and this is PURE rumor, I've heard AA is in slot negotiations with Boeing for up to 50 787s, the first of which would be 787-3s to replace 762s and A300s. Then later 787-9s would come to supplement 763/772 flying.

At least the numbers add up as AA's current A300 and 762 fleet totals around 50 aircraft. However, I don't know much about the various 787 models and how well the 787-3s would replace the A300 or 762.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12317 times:

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 14):
On the 787 front, and this is PURE rumor, I've heard AA is in slot negotiations with Boeing for up to 50 787s, the first of which would be 787-3s to replace 762s and A300s. Then later 787-9s would come to supplement 763/772 flying.

At least the numbers add up as AA's current A300 and 762 fleet totals around 50 aircraft. However, I don't know much about the various 787 models and how well the 787-3s would replace the A300 or 762.

Many here at a.net are convinced that AA will split its order between the shorter range 783 (762 transcon/A300 replacement) and the 789 (that will slot inbetween the 763ER and 772ER and eventually replace the 763ER).....my position (and its just an opinion) is that AA will not go with the 783 and instead focus on the longer range variants of the 787 to increase flexibility in their fleet. I think that AA will be limited by the 783's lack of range.....I do understand that there are certain advantages (financial and otherwise) of going with the 783, but I think that those are outweighed by the ability to use the 788 on a MIA-SJU route one day and the MIA-CDG route the next day. Time will tell........and a lot will depend on how many 787s that AA commits to with its initial order.

The other issue to consider is that the 783 or 788 are far bigger airplanes than the 762......my guess is that when this all happens, 763ERs will take over the transcon flights and the 787s will fly European/South American runs....which further diminishes the case for the 783.


User currently offlineDartland From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 645 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12085 times:
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Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 8):
I may be wrong , but it makes more sense to just retire the A300s and use additional 763s until AA is able to acquire 787s. These A300s must be getting rusty by now and operating costs would be higher than 767-300s, right?

Exactly.

It's clearly not ideal, but it will work until they're ready to grow again.


User currently offlineWarreng24 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 707 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11881 times:

Where are these A/C being parked at?

Victorville?
Roswell?
Goodyear?
Marana?
Mojave?


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7590 posts, RR: 27
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11881 times:

This is pretty typical for every year during this time. Last year, AA drew back A300 flying during the same time, but didn't officially park any aircraft. They did a rolling parking where they were leave aircraft idle for a day or two at a time. Also, the a lot of heavy maintenance work was performed last fall on the A300's, along with deep cleaning. This may or may not be the case this year, depending on the maintenance schedule.

AA isn't alone, a lot of other airlines have scaled back capacity is certain markets during the off-seasons. A lot of these leisure markets have peaks and valleys, and the airlines now are tailoring their schedule more to match them than ever before.


User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2190 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11755 times:
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Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
I do understand that there are certain advantages (financial and otherwise) of going with the 783, but I think that those are outweighed by the ability to use the 788 on a MIA-SJU route one day and the MIA-CDG route the next day.

RE 788: Won't they face the same problem that they have with putting the 777 on domestic runs, the 777 cabin has too many premium lie-flat seats and too few Y-seats making the shorter runs uneconomical? Hence, the A306 fly those routes.

Or will Boeing make the planes so that they can be reconfigured between trips? I highly doubt that.

It's not like the 783 will be a complete dog either, with 6,500kms range... that's transcon and a bit more, perfect for the North American market.



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineQQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2282 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11714 times:

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 17):
Where are these A/C being parked at?

I was wondering the same thing, although I think they are more likely to be spread out... MIA, JFK, SJU as spares, or sent to Tulsa for additional maintenance. Although expensive, it would be nice if they'd do extensive maintenance on them again. This past year the mechanical issues on the A300, in my experience, were far less common/complicated than in the past, and their reliability greatly improved. I think the term "parked" was used figuratively, rather than literally, when the pilots told me about it. Even so if they were actually parked I doubt AA would pay someone else to store them when they could handle a month or two on the ramps at Tulsa, KC and Alliance.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8372 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11667 times:
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A300 have evry small Biz class cabins, only 16 seats. 789 with 30 Biz and 250 Coach(just an estimate) could fly both short haul Latin out of MIA and JFk and fly to Europe too. May be a sub-fleet with only 18 Biz and more coach is the answer to the Caribean.

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11667 times:

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 19):
RE 788: Won't they face the same problem that they have with putting the 777 on domestic runs, the 777 cabin has too many premium lie-flat seats and too few Y-seats making the shorter runs uneconomical? Hence, the A306 fly those routes

Good point, but AA could go with two seperate interior layouts.....one for longhaul and the other for shorter haul trips, even if the airplanes could not rotate easily between missions on a daily basis, the airplanes could be reconfigured when there are shifts in demand and conditions change.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 19):
Or will Boeing make the planes so that they can be reconfigured between trips? I highly doubt that.

I agree.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 19):
It's not like the 783 will be a complete dog either, with 6,500kms range... that's transcon and a bit more, perfect for the North American market.

But just short of transatlantic range.......limiting the airplanes flexibility and possibly impacting longterm value. Just like the 763A and 772A have limited appeal, the 783 may be ideal for Japanese operators but not the best all around airplane for AA. It will be interesting to see how this works out.


User currently offlineJAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 11263 times:

Does any one know the price difference between the 787-3 and 787-9? Maybe this will determine if AA gets both types ,or just the 787-9 if the price is close so it has better flexibility for routes.

User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11609 posts, RR: 61
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 11148 times:

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 23):
Does any one know the price difference between the 787-3 and 787-9?

The -3 is larger, with a much shorter range. The -9 has a very long range, and is a bit smaller in capacity.


25 2H4 : What are the A300s biggest problems, maintenance-wise? 2H4
26 MCOflyer : My uncle works for voght and he tells me that AA is ordering 787's. When? He doesn't know. Boeing will FIND a way to get them 787's to replace A300's.
27 SABE : Interesting to see this topic just a few days after AA changed my flight BOG-MIA on January 6th from an A300 to a B763. This is the second flight of t
28 JAM747 : I was asking about the price difference between the two 787 models .
29 Commavia : My apologies at misreading your original question. The list price (and of course no airline ever pays the true list price, kind of like how nobody ev
30 Ikramerica : Considering the size of the order by AA, that alone would justify going forward with the second assembly line. 34 A300s and 58 763s will need replaci
31 777ER : B787 rings a bell from 2012 anyone?
32 WesternA318 : Where would AA get the 763s, and what are they going to do about ALL the freight the Airbii carry? But what about cargo space?
33 LTBEWR : The A300 are use on specific JFK/MIA and Carribbean routes due the larger cargo/baggage capacity vs. the 767's. By limiting the airports that operate
34 Dutchjet : I really dont think that will be happening.
35 Luisca : The 787 will almost certainly have the same cargo capacity as the A300 or maybe even better capacity.
36 WesternA318 : Thanks for clarifying, I dont even bother looking up data on the 787...
37 PRAirbus : AA's schedule in SJU for Winter 06 shows a lot of AB6 activity, there might be a "break" on the short-term but those birds will be busy again during t
38 CHIFLYGUY : How far along is the 783 in development? This is a niche aircraft so far, so I'm guessing that if AA were going to order ~50, they could influence th
39 MAH4546 : IIRC, they got an interior refresh and new LCD screens not long ago. Not sure, though. I haven't flown one in five years.
40 LGA777 : Allthough I don't work for AA my employer uses Sabre and we can check Flifo (actual times of arrival/departure) of AA and several other carriers. Beca
41 Post contains images Fxramper : Rudders and take off power settings.
42 Ken777 : AA is an interesting customer for Boeing. They could use 50+50 787s ordered ASAP and will also need a lot of Y1s to replace the MDs. to get the order
43 CHIFLYGUY : Ken, Depending on what Boeing does with Y1 and what AA actually decides to do, it's possible that AA could eventually become a 2 type fleet for mainli
44 B707Stu : I'll settle for a good cleaning. The last one I was on a few weeks ago was disgusting. THe AA A300's puts the 'bus' feeling in Airbus. THe walls, bat
45 Lemurs : Comes with the territory when you fly high Y leisure routes unfortunately. People treat the airplane like trash when they got their ticket for $200 r
46 MasseyBrown : Boeing has certainly dropped enough hints that a second line is an option. One problem is whether it would run long enough to pay for itself; but I t
47 Chiad : AA is going to replace the A300's and B767's with A350XWB's. You'll see.
48 PlanesNTrains : While in theory you may be right, I doubt that this would ultimately come to pass. For one, they would need darn near 400 firm Y1's, which will take
49 MAH4546 : Would make perfect sense if the A300 was flying leisure routes with low fares. Too bad that theory doesn't fly, since AA's A300s fly almost primarily
50 Dutchjet : Good point - there is a simple reason as to why the interiors of the AA A300s look tired and are not spiffy clean.......these airplanes are workhorse
51 B707Stu : Well, B6/Jet Blue, though not 'high density aircraft' operate them harder than AA does the A300 and they're spotless. I can't buy that they can't be
52 Commavia : The planes are trash because the passengers treat them like trash. American's JFK-SJU/SDQ/PAP flights aren't lovingly called the "Roach Coach" for no
53 RIPCORDD : I will have what you are smoking
54 Post contains links and images BigGSFO : Actually AA will replace the A300's with aircraft from Tupolev, possibly the TU204's. http://www.tupolev.ru/English/Show.asp?SectionID=110 [Edited 20
55 Post contains images AirbusA6 : Why does that remind me of a 4 engined Airbus, much maligned on this board The condition of the plane is down to the airline not the manufacturer. Cl
56 UAL777UK : I wont hold my breath!!
57 Boeing767mech : Right now they are staying in Tulsa, on Alert status like the days of the cold war, They can be put on line in a couple of hours if needed, from what
58 Ha763 : Actually, it does not. By ULD volume only, the A300-600R (22 LD3s x 160 cu.ft = 3520 cu.ft) and 767-300ER (30 LD2s x 130 cu.ft = 3600 cu.ft)have simi
59 WesternA318 : But then again, B6 doesnt operate Roach Coach flights, nor have a big a reputations or class as AA. I think thats what were getting at
60 Post contains images Chiad : LOL. Oh well!
61 PlanesNTrains : I get the "Roach Coach" part, but what does "nor have a big a reputations or class as AA" mean? That's "far more cargo"? There must be more to this e
62 Post contains images Yellowtail : Human Cargo......
63 Luisca : I think it has something to do with the 767 not being able to carry 2 LD? (2 or 3) containers side by side, but the A300 is able to do it. Of this I
64 MAH4546 : There is. A fully loaded A300 can more efficeiently handle a take-off/landing heavily daily schedule than a 763 can, and it can carry, in AA's config
65 PlanesNTrains : I think that sounds accurate, but the earlier references seem to take that into account. I guess someone will provide more info soon. It's sad when w
66 FLY2LIM : I flew LIM-MIA on August 16 and I was shocked to find the seats similar to the MD aircraft, with the adjustable headrest and all. They fly and land s
67 PlanesNTrains : Okay, so it isn't just cargo, per se, but rather good cargo load, more passengers, and busier turn-around schedule. That makes sense. The impression
68 Post contains images WesternA318 : Here is your flame, lol. Leave it the idiots on here to flame for asking a simple question! Amen PlanesNTrains, although as far as Ive noticed only o
69 Ikramerica : In time for what? AA will renew the leases of the newest A300s to coincide with whatever replacements they are looking to get. There is no drop dead
70 AZFlyer84 : I saw alot of A300's in TUL yesterday.
71 WorldTraveler : The 763ER has a MTOW that is 35,000 higher than the A300. No it doesn't. The 763 is just as capable of carrying 260 passengers as AA has their A300s
72 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I'm perfectly fine with that situation....
73 SABE : So, I'll ask again... does anyone know where the second A306 that was used for MIA-BOG-MIA is being redeployed? AA 913/916 will be operated with a B76
74 Post contains links and images STT757 : I don't know about that, looks like someone (from Puerto Rico) put some graffiti (scratchitti for NYC Subway riders) on a Jetblue A320 window. The ph
75 STT757 : AA would realize huge cost savings replacing their 767-200s and A300s with 787-3s, between Maintenance costs, servicing equipment, and common crews es
76 Commavia : Operating two different cabin configurations on a single aircraft type (everything identical below-the-wing) is still a dramatic improvement over two
77 MAH4546 : So what? That has nothing to do with anything. The A300 is designed to profitablly fly short flights with a significant cargo belly and huge passenge
78 PlanesNTrains : What I was saying was that I understood that part of his sentence (versus the rest of it) - not that I was agreeing with the phrase used or reason fo
79 Post contains images FlyAAS80 : Hello everyone! Long time listener, first time caller. This is my first post so please be gentle. I fly to GUA roughly once a year for a medical missi
80 AJMIA : Maybe MIA-CCS. The winter schedule has 3 of 4 daily flights on A300s... AJMIA
81 Commavia : Have a great friend who used to be an AA GA at JFK for 25 yrs. She absolutely LOVED working the JFK-SJU/SDQ/PAP flights and never referred to them as
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