Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Why No Flights Between Luxembourg and N. America?  
User currently offlineUSADreamliner From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 10 months 8 hours ago) and read 9353 times:

I remember years ago, Loftleidir used to fly from Luxembourg (via Reykjavik) to North America, and I think Aeroflot used to fly there as a stop to transatlantic destinations.
There is no market or simply too much competence from nearby major airports?


usadreamliner

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4679 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 8 hours ago) and read 9333 times:

Small market, connection opportunities available.


Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 8 hours ago) and read 9322 times:

No market, LUX is a small place and pax flying long haul from LUX either connect at another airport or fly from BRU (about 2 hours away), CGN (about the same) or CDG (a bit futher)......interestingly, some holiday flights marketed in LUX actually depart from CDG and passengers are transfered by motor coach. The area around LUX is also not very populated......thus, there is not the mass to support longhaul services (even short haul services are limited and Luxair, the national airline, is once again having money problems and may dump their 737NG fleet.)

About 5 or 6 years ago, Luxair contracted with Citybird, the now defunct Belgian charter carrier, to operate a 763ER 3 or 4 times per week on the LUX-EWR route....Citybird would position the airplane from BRU to LUX for the flight. The flight lasted one season......and even with rock bottom fares (as low as $99 each way), the airplanes were very empty.

Back in the Icelandair days,,,,,they were one of the very few budget choices between the US and Europe.....this was before web fares, advance purchase fares, etc. Usually two flights operated between Iceland and LUX...filled with pax that originated in the USA. From LUX, pax would use their Eurorail passes and travel to cities throughout Europe.....different times. There was also the Internatinal Air Bahama subsidiary........flights with DC8-60s flew NAS-Iceland-LUX several times per week....many pax from FLorida would fly to Nassau to pick up this inexpensive service.


User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2068 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 8 hours ago) and read 9322 times:

A country with less than 500,000 people generates not enough demand for such flights. BRU, AMS, DUS, CGN and perhaps also, by high speed trains, CDG and FRA are to near.

So, yes no market and to much competition.

Axel

[Edited 2006-09-16 21:47:42]


Wer wenig weiss muss vieles glauben
User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 7 hours ago) and read 9190 times:

They do operate. See CargoLux.

As for passenger flights, ask yourself if a country of 500,000 with three major international airports a short distance away has a market for transatlantic flights. And see the financial health of Luxair.



The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineSoups From Ghana, joined Jun 2004, 3438 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 9023 times:

Any current passenger flights outside europe from LUX?


Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 9015 times:

Quoting Soups (Reply 5):
Any current passenger flights outside europe from LUX?

Luxair does some charter work with their 737NGs.....there could be some flights to European holiday destinations in Egypt, Israel, Northern Africa, etc. I am guessing here.....but as far as I know, that would be the only possible pax operations destinations outside of Europe from LUX.


User currently offlineChugach From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1041 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 3 hours ago) and read 8913 times:

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 4):

Cargolux used to, or maybe still do, refuel in FAI on their LUX-Asia flights. I believe they were in PDX for a time, too (cargo).



GO ROCKETS
User currently offlineCRGsFuture From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 3 hours ago) and read 8875 times:

So what's the flight time, (if their is any) from LUX to BRU:CDG: or FRA?


Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
User currently offlinePatroni From Luxembourg, joined Aug 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 3 hours ago) and read 8875 times:

Quoting Chugach (Reply 7):
Cargolux used to, or maybe still do, refuel in FAI on their LUX-Asia flights. I believe they were in PDX for a time, too (cargo).

FAI is still on as tech stop. Other CV USA destinations (all cargo) include JFK, ORD, IND, IAH, SEA, SFO, LAX.

For passengers, LUX had its last connection to JFK for a short period of time in spring 2003 (I think) when RO served the route OTP-LUX-JFK with their A310-300. Obviously not successful as they pulled out after only two months.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4496 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 3 hours ago) and read 8852 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
About 5 or 6 years ago, Luxair contracted with Citybird, the now defunct Belgian charter carrier, to operate a 763ER 3 or 4 times per week on the LUX-EWR route....Citybird would position the airplane from BRU to LUX for the flight. The flight lasted one season......and even with rock bottom fares (as low as $99 each way), the airplanes were very empty.

I'm surprised anyone in here still remembers this venture. It was in the summer of 1999 when a Citybird B763ER would fly thrice weekly between LUX and EWR. The result was indeed disastrous and I remember one particular flight with just about 4 passengers taking of from LUX for EWR.


User currently offlineAvatordon From United States of America, joined May 2006, 239 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 hour ago) and read 8791 times:

Didn't Icelandair also fly nonstop from JFK to LUX at one point? I remember how odd it was because they were bypassing their home country.

User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6293 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8670 times:

LUX is a wonderful place, with a nice airport, but absolutely no need for international (non-regional/non-European, that is) traffic. It's so easy to get there on train from multiple cities with extensive international service, such as CDG, BRU, and even FRA a little further down the road. The time I went to Luxembourg, I came in on train from London via Brussels, and out to Paris...quick, easy, convenient, fairly cheap

User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1825 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8257 times:

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 8):
So what's the flight time, (if their is any) from LUX to BRU:CDG: or FRA?

Luxair operates 5 daily flights LUX-CDG, code-shared with AF, flight time is 55 min including taxi times.


User currently offlinePatroni From Luxembourg, joined Aug 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7579 times:

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 8):
So what's the flight time, (if their is any) from LUX to BRU:CDG: or FRA?

Flight time to FRA or CDG is about 25-30min, Block time as Goldorak said just below one hour. Flights to AMS take a bit more than one hour (KL F50). There are no more flights to BRU since SN folded, but they used to be around 25min flying time as well (ATR-72 or DH-8).

From next year, LUX will be connected with Paris via a TGV (high speep train) link which takes a bit more than 2 hours, so the LUX-CDG flights will face severe competition.... The train to FRA takes very long as no high speed track in this direction.


User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7421 times:

LUXAIR flew nonstop from Luxembourg to Newark for six months in 1998 using a leased B767-300ER. The route flopped.

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7165 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
About 5 or 6 years ago, Luxair contracted with Citybird, the now defunct Belgian charter carrier, to operate a 763ER 3 or 4 times per week on the LUX-EWR route....Citybird would position the airplane from BRU to LUX for the flight. The flight lasted one season......and even with rock bottom fares (as low as $99 each way), the airplanes were very empty.



Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 15):
LUXAIR flew nonstop from Luxembourg to Newark for six months in 1998 using a leased B767-300ER. The route flopped.

Worse than a flop.........lets say a disaster.


User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6767 times:

I could see CO giving LUX a try with a 757.

Luxembourg itself is a tiny country with 500.000 inhabitants, but if you include nearby Saarland Region in Germany and Lorraine Region in France (both are densly populated) you easily get 1.5 Mio 100km around LUX.

And it should also be noted that Luxembourg as a country has the highest GDP per capita in Europe. It is a big financial centre and hosts a lot of EU authorities.

A connection between the banking centres New York and LUX could work. Maybe it is difficult to fill the cheap places, but up front it should deliver a healthy yield.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6585 times:

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 17):
I could see CO giving LUX a try with a 757.

CO is not giving LUX a try. This is why:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 10):

I'm surprised anyone in here still remembers this venture. It was in the summer of 1999 when a Citybird B763ER would fly thrice weekly between LUX and EWR. The result was indeed disastrous and I remember one particular flight with just about 4 passengers taking of from LUX for EWR.



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
No market, LUX is a small place and pax flying long haul from LUX either connect at another airport or fly from BRU (about 2 hours away), CGN (about the same) or CDG (a bit futher)......interestingly, some holiday flights marketed in LUX actually depart from CDG and passengers are transfered by motor coach. The area around LUX is also not very populated......thus, there is not the mass to support longhaul services (even short haul services are limited and Luxair, the national airline, is once again having money problems and may dump their 737NG fleet.)

LUX has trouble supporting flights to European capitals, never mind a transatlantic link.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 17):
but if you include nearby Saarland Region in Germany

Who fly out of German airports.....mainly CGN or DUS.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 17):
Lorraine Region in France

Who fly out of French airports.....mainly CDG/ORY where nonstop flights are offered to just about every major worldwide destination.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 17):
And it should also be noted that Luxembourg as a country has the highest GDP per capita in Europe. It is a big financial centre and hosts a lot of EU authorities

Who utilize BRU.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 17):
A connection between the banking centres New York and LUX could work. Maybe it is difficult to fill the cheap places, but up front it should deliver a healthy yield.

New concept.....raise prices to increase demand?

-------

Most longhaul traffic to/from LUX simply uses BRU which is about 2 hours from the center of Luxembourg......not very far. Those who live in the areas surrounding Luxembourg generally use the airport in their country that is closest to their home. So simple is it.


User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6450 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 10):
I'm surprised anyone in here still remembers this venture. It was in the summer of 1999 when a Citybird B763ER would fly thrice weekly between LUX and EWR. The result was indeed disastrous and I remember one particular flight with just about 4 passengers taking of from LUX for EWR.

You can't compare a citybird 767 in 1999 with a CO 757 2006.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
LUX has trouble supporting flights to European capitals, never mind a transatlantic link.

Thats because Luxembourgs major airports are Hahn and Charleroi. LUX itself is maily used for business traffic.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):

Who fly out of German airports.....mainly CGN or DUS.

Better have a look on the map. Saarland is aprox. 300km away form CGN and DUS. And there is neither a motorway nor a fast railway.
Saarland uses Hahn for short haul and FRA for lonhaul. But even FRA is a 2 hours ride by car.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
Who fly out of French airports.....mainly CDG/ORY where nonstop flights are offered to just about every major worldwide destination.

Here also a look on the map could help. Metz and Nancy are far away by car from Paris. AF just announced that they will stop flying to there once the TGV is inaugurated. And the two daily trains to CDG don't offer an equal replacement.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
New concept.....raise prices to increase demand?

You want to misunderstand me? I haven't said anything about raising prices.
I expressed my doubts about filling the back but less doubts about filling the front.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
Who utilize BRU.

I agree that BRU is the real hurdle to overcome for LUX. But if there is a flight LUX-EWR with CO les Luxembourgoise will certainly use this flight to New York and Nort America in favor of travelling to BRU, CDG and FRA. And the same happens for people from Saarland and Lorraine. If that is enough for a daily CO to EWR, I don't know. But it certainly makes sense to valueate it.


User currently offlineDj1986 From Luxembourg, joined Apr 2006, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6441 times:

I have also heard from a Luxair Travel Agency that people were not happy with the service on the LUX-EWR run operated by Citybird. From what they told me it was a huge difference to the normal Luxair service. They also told me that a big company from Luxembourg (Logistics) tried the direct flight instead of going via FRA with LH but after only 2 flights of some managers in C they were going via FRA again. I can't proof that because I never have flown Citybird.


on strike! finally VC!
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6322 times:

LUX had it's day in the sun as a transatlantic gateway, thanks to Icelandair. Icelandair promoted LUX as the European destination for the budget conscious and the multitudes of US college students doing the "backpacking through Europe" right of passage. They didn't care where in Europe the were dropped off/picked up, so long as the fare across the pond was cheap. Icelandiar filled that market nicely. In fact (I think it was during the 1980's), FI offered non-stop JFK-LUX in addition to connections via KEF.

Today, the US-Europe market has changed and LUX no longer meets the need of the marketplace. Open Skies in a few countries, competition and the accessibility of low fares on just about every airline provide even the most budget conscious consumer a choice of destinations, gateways and carriers.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4496 posts, RR: 72
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6233 times:

Quoting Dj1986 (Reply 20):
I have also heard from a Luxair Travel Agency that people were not happy with the service on the LUX-EWR run operated by Citybird. From what they told me it was a huge difference to the normal Luxair service. They also told me that a big company from Luxembourg (Logistics) tried the direct flight instead of going via FRA with LH but after only 2 flights of some managers in C they were going via FRA again. I can't proof that because I never have flown Citybird.

These remarks come as no surprise as the Citybird B763ERs were basically in charter configuration and Luxair apparently sold Citybird's premium class, which was really no more than a premium economy product, as a full fare transatlantic business class. Apart from that, Citybird was not exactly known for its professionalism in onboard service.

Sabena occasionally deployed the Citybird B763s on their BRU-JNB route when one of the leased MD11s - leased from Citybird, btw - was facing technical problems once again, and it was sheer torture to be on those planes for 12 hours. I personally experiences it twice.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21456 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6209 times:

Why?


Because I only go to Luxembourg once every 5 years or so, and no airline is going to open the route just for me unless I do it weekly...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6186 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
Because I only go to Luxembourg once every 5 years or so, and no airline is going to open the route just for me unless I do it weekly...

That often? Wow....
 sarcastic 


25 Post contains images Flight7E7 : I fondly recall in 1978, the FI DC-8 61 ride from JFK/LUX/JFK during the height of the summer season, bunch of us flew R/T from JFK-$198.00 per person
26 CptGirmayTesfa : Someone remembers the Luxair 747SP flight Luxembourg-Johannesburg ? Must have been somewhere in the early 90s.
27 HoosierCFI : I can attest to this. Courtesy of Airhitch, I flew JFK-KEF-LUX-KEF-BWI back in 98. Flight going over was packed, but I think that it was because the
28 Dutchjet : I do know that CO has evaluated many European markets, and LUX will not be seeing nonstop service.....the small population, regarless of their income
29 Dj1986 : That leads to the question why Luxair choose Citybird to operate these routes. If they offered a "Premium Economy" for sale as Business it really is
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Why No Flights Between Hamburg And Berlin? posted Wed May 18 2005 03:00:52 by Dellatorre
Not Enough Flights Between Europe And S. America? posted Sun Oct 8 2006 20:14:46 by Il75
No Flights Between GRU And MVD? posted Mon Aug 7 2006 22:41:48 by Adriaticus
No Flights Between PHL And ACY On 03/06? posted Thu Feb 6 2003 17:41:52 by Sabena332
Why No Scheduled Flights Between BEY And SSH posted Sat Mar 13 2004 20:21:26 by Horus
Why No Direct Flights Between India And Australia? posted Fri Dec 5 2003 17:49:51 by DIJKKIJK
Why No Synergies Between Air Berlin And Air Madrid posted Tue Oct 4 2005 20:51:21 by Beaucaire
No Direct QF Flights Between SYD And CNS In Apr? posted Sun Oct 27 2002 03:47:10 by United Airline
Flights Between BOS And BRU (and MAD) Expected. posted Sat Oct 28 2006 17:24:44 by Manni
Flights Between Gibraltar And Spain posted Sat Oct 21 2006 14:17:54 by Columbia107