Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?  
User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2632 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6066 times:

Runway 4/22 at MSP doesn't look busy at all. I have seen a couple of Saabs and DC-9s takeoff, a couple of 747s taking off, and one DC-9 land. Why does it seem like runway 4/22 isn't very busy?


It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNorjet From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6044 times:

1. Prevailing winds are usually from the NW or SE, so 12/30 L&R are favorably positioned, likewise the new 17/35.

2. Use of 4/22 cuts off all traffic on 12/30 and 17/35. MSP's traffic would back up considerably if restricted to just one runway for any considerable length of time.

3. Takeoffs on 4 send aircraft directly over St. Paul's Highland Park neighborhood, known for its persnicketyness about airplane noise. Likewise 22 sends traffic over Prestigious West Bloomington. (Folks in South Minneapolis, Richfield, East Bloomington, and Eagan have been living with the noise forever now and home values are accordingly market priced. If significantly more traffic were routed over HP / PWB the real estate market would be screaming.)

4. As such, 4/22 is usually used only in times of unusual wind, and as mentioned, for the daily 744 rotations to NRT, where a long takeoff roll is needed. Spotters without radios know to watch for the calm which comes over the airport just before takeoff, as activity on all other runways pauses.

Hope this helps.
--Scott



Publishing travel advice for adopting families - to justify being an airline geek
User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2632 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6023 times:

The 747s that take off on 4/22 scream over my house. I just saw one flying over. I ran as fast as I could to see it. I also saw one DC-10 take off on that runway which was odd.


It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 903 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6012 times:

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 2):
The 747s that take off on 4/22 scream over my house. I just saw one flying over. I ran as fast as I could to see it. I also saw one DC-10 take off on that runway which was odd.

Yeah the heavies will do that. I've seen DC-10s scream down 22 and scare the bejeezes outta me because it looks like a runaway aircraft amidst the 12L/12R operations.



'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5976 times:

Quoting Norjet (Reply 1):
2. Use of 4/22 cuts off all traffic on 12/30 and 17/35. MSP's traffic would back up considerably if restricted to just one runway for any considerable length of time.

Hit the nail on the head. This is by far the main reason.


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5957 times:

There's a scene in the movie, Airport, that makes me laugh everytime I see it. A family is sitting at the dinner table in their home. The father/husband begins to say grace. Suddenly, everything starts shaking and rattling as an aircraft takes off on runway 22. In mid-sentence, the prayer quickly changes to cursing as the man holds onto the table for dear life.

It's so true! In reality, the NIMBYs and the MAC were fighting it out regarding takeoffs on 22 when the movie was released.



Mark

[Edited 2006-09-17 00:24:05]

User currently offlinePilottim747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1607 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5822 times:

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 2):
The 747s that take off on 4/22 scream over my house. I just saw one flying over. I ran as fast as I could to see it. I also saw one DC-10 take off on that runway which was odd.

DC-10s do occasionally take-off from Runway 4/22. This usually happens with heavy flights and hot weather (ie summer).

The above responses are correct. Using Runway 4/22 does not give MSP air traffic controllers an operational advantage. You need to stop traffic on any crossing runway to use Rwy 4/22. With Rwy 17/35 now in use, the use of Rwy 4/22 is even rarer than normal. Additionally, the runway was closed for about 1/2 a year while a tunnel was built underneath the runway.

What happens when all of MSP is reduced to just Runway 4/22? Check it out:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Timothy Hannan




Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5808 times:

Quoting Norjet (Reply 1):

3. Takeoffs on 4 send aircraft directly over St. Paul's Highland Park neighborhood, known for its persnicketyness about airplane noise. Likewise 22 sends traffic over Prestigious West Bloomington. (Folks in South Minneapolis, Richfield, East Bloomington, and Eagan have been living with the noise forever now and home values are accordingly market priced. If significantly more traffic were routed over HP / PWB the real estate market would be screaming.)

Yep - I live in one your "persnickety" neighborhoods. I promise you, they still send pleny of air traffic over my house. Unless it's a DC-9 or DC-10, it's not really audible at the altitude it overflies. I hear the DC-9s from 4/22 going over my edina office all day. HP and PWB are far enough out it wouldn't be an issue. The big issue has more to do with wind, and the fact that doing 4/22 would slow busy MSP traffic down.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2632 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5749 times:

One time a DC-9 was very low (lower than when the 747s go over my house) and it wasn't a plane taking off on 4/22. Although there might have been a problem so they landed at Eden Prairie Flying Cloud. Anyway it was turning a lot. At first I thought the pilots had know idea where they were going. Can anyone explain this?


It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5697 times:

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 8):
Can anyone explain this?

Go-arounds from 30L.

Mark


User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3452 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5644 times:

It was common back in the summers of 1999-2002 for 4/22 to be the only runway in use at MSP. It was dreadful from a spotters point of view.

Jeremy


User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2632 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5576 times:

I was always hoping that a KLM 747 would scream over my house. But thinks to NW's codeshare service that may never happen.  Sad


It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 3 days ago) and read 5541 times:

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 11):
I was always hoping that a KLM 747 would scream over my house. But thinks to NW's codeshare service that may never happen.

KLM could be back. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened sooner than later. I always liked N237NW in the half-and-half livery.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter de Groot
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Miguel Snoep



There hasn't been a KL 747 at MSP since July 7, 2004, when they upgraded from an MD11 for their daily flight to AMS.

I learned something new today. It looks like 747's don't always depart on 4/22. I always thought they did. Here, a KL 742 takes off on 12R and a USAF VC-25A departs on 12L. That must have been quite a surprise for motorists on Highway 5 !


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Aric Thalman
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Timothy Hannan



Mark

[Edited 2006-09-18 02:05:20]

User currently offlineDkf747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5511 times:

I used to go spotting at MSP regularly from 1991-1996 and 747 take-offs on 4/22 were very rare then. Most 747s used both runways 30/12 (right numbers?) so I doubt people on highway 5 were very surprised.

User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2632 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5500 times:

Does anyone know if a KLM a/c ever took off on 4/22? If some did then I probably missed them because I wasn't interested in aviation back then. So when one of those big jets flew over I would just be doing something else.


It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineN808NWatMSP From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 171 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5375 times:

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 14):
Does anyone know if a KLM a/c ever took off on 4/22?

From what I recall, no. I've been spotting KL since '99 and I only recall the AMS flight using 12R/30L.


User currently offlinePilottim747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1607 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5319 times:

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 14):
Does anyone know if a KLM a/c ever took off on 4/22?

Yes, I distinctly remember the MSP-AMS flight taking off on Runway 4/22 occasionally. I might even have a photo of KLM on 4/22, I'd have to dig through some old photos.



Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3452 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days ago) and read 5277 times:

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 12):
I learned something new today. It looks like 747's don't always depart on 4/22. I always thought they did. Here, a KL 742 takes off on 12R and a USAF VC-25A departs on 12L. That must have been quite a surprise for motorists on Highway 5 !

NW 744s to NRT depart from 12R/30L all the time in the fall/winter. It's only usually in hot conditions or when the aircraft is extra heavy that they use 4/22.

Jeremy


User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2632 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5251 times:

I've noticed that the 747s only takeoff on 4/22 during the summer. I think in June I went to MSP and I noticed a 747 turning torwards concourse E. Ten minutes later the 747 took off on 4/22.


It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2632 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5245 times:

Not to get off topic but who agrees that KL will fly back to MSP? I don't like the NW code share service. And the list of airlines that fly to MSP have KL even though I say KL does not fly to MSP.


It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4181 posts, RR: 37
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5180 times:

It's rare to see a heavy require 22 when the weather gets cooler... a 10000 foot runway like 30L/12R is typically more than enough. Even in the summer it is not uncommon for the 747's to be able to use 30L/12R.


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5151 times:

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 5):

Off topic. That picture is classic. I remember going to MSP to pick up my grandma and parking in a parking lot...no garage. The terminal was soooo small then and it was like in the countryside.

On topic: I think I have only seen a plane land and take off once from 4/22. But knew they were landing there. When I was at Hamline, the flight from Tokyo flew over us on direct path for 4/22. Flew over during microecon...best part of the class.

[Edited 2006-09-19 06:58:52]


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineDc10s4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5145 times:

Dont you remember the picketing going on infront of the airport while Joe Patroni was trying to dig a 707 out of the snow???? "Close down runway twenty-two..."

User currently offlineDkf747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5073 times:

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 14):
Does anyone know if a KLM a/c ever took off on 4/22?

Oh yes, I have seen them use that runway several times over the years. I remember an MD-11 flight arriving on that runway with my friends on board once. They took off on the same runway a week later.


User currently offlineJawed From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 482 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5070 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 21):

On topic: I think I have only seen a plane land and take off once from 4/22. But knew they were landing there. When I was at Hamline, the flight from Tokyo flew over us on direct path for 4/22. Flew over during microecon...best part of the class.

Cool. Out of curiosity, how do you generally figure out which flights correspond to a given flightpath or vice versa? When I look at planes that pass my house I have no idea where they are coming from, or where they are going. But it would be interesting to know. How do i find this out? Flightaware doesn't offer enough resolution for me to be able to narrow that down.


25 Af773atmsp : NW's 747s that are at MSP always go to NRT. When I was younger I went to this pool and almost every time we would go there a 747 would take off. The 7
26 Charlienorth : I grew up in Bloomington..pre hub days...lived under the approach to RWY 4 loved to sit and watch the "iron" flyover,it was when there was a good mix
27 Pilottim747 : Besides MSP-NRT, NW used to operate MSP-KIX for a few years in the late 1990s and they flew MSP-HKG in 1997-1998 (at that time the world's longest co
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Why Is TWA Terminal 5 At JFK Not In Service? posted Tue Aug 23 2005 19:29:54 by Boegas
Why Is A Transavia 737 At Msp!? posted Mon Nov 4 2002 00:24:29 by Continental
Why Is Runway 18/36 Closed At Ord? posted Sat Aug 12 2000 07:16:04 by TWA902fly
Why Is Southwest Hiring At IAD? posted Sun Jun 18 2006 06:11:41 by Midex461
Why Is Southside Tbit At LAX Closed? posted Mon Jun 5 2006 02:11:08 by Access-Air
Why Is PH-PRH At LCY posted Mon Jan 30 2006 20:01:42 by River747
Why Is There Cargo At LHR? posted Sat Oct 15 2005 21:20:53 by Kaitak744
New Runway Unveiled At MSP-Video posted Sun Sep 25 2005 18:31:20 by KarlB737
Why Is LH Based At FRA? posted Thu May 5 2005 20:42:09 by Rolo987
Why Is Air Tran At SFO International Terminal? posted Fri Mar 19 2004 00:11:53 by Planenutz