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FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul  
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9979 posts, RR: 96
Posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8319 times:
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An article appeared in this week's hard-copy FI entitled

"Delays force A380 testing U-turn".

Essentially it outlines a change of aircraft for the route-proving trials brought about by production delays, in order to maintain the certification schedule.

Key quotes:-

Airbus will now use MSN002 for the trials as completion of the intended aircraft (MSN007) has been further delayed.

"Because of production delays, we realised that if we waited for MSN007 to be ready, it would be very difficult to keep certification on schedule" says Fernando Alonso

Airbus will operate a 150 hour Function + Reliability (F+R) test in november using MSN002, and credit the other 150 hours from flights made during the ELF programme.

Alonso says 80% of certification flying has been completed (about 2000 hours so far). He expects the remainder (except for the F+R) to be completed next month.

"We will then present the paperwork to the authorities for certification approval. This process is expected to take around 6 weeks, which would see certification in place by December"


I'll keep an eye out for the electronic link in flightglobal.

Regards

62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8293 times:

Quoting Astuteman (Thread starter):
Airbus will now use MSN002 for the trials as completion of the intended aircraft (MSN007) has been further delayed.

Wow, MSN007 was used for the evacuation testing in late-March. Sounds like the rewire jobs continue to be exceedingly difficult.


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9979 posts, RR: 96
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8268 times:
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Quoting Leelaw (Reply 1):
Sounds like the rewire jobs continue to be exceedingly difficult.

I find it nothing short of extraordinary.

Once it's up and running (if?) I bet they can turn out entire aircraft in less time than this re-wiring currently seems to be taking.

I noticed a comment by the A380 flight test team in the A380 flight test article you posted last week, saying that the A380 was the best-performing aircraft they had ever put though certification, and expressing severe frustration about the production delays.

Must be driving them up the wall.

Regards


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9170 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8255 times:

There was an article in a German Sunday paper saying that the certification is running about 3 month late. The original schedule date was Oct 2, that confirms this.


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8204 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
There was an article in a German Sunday paper saying that the certification is running about 3 month late. The original schedule date was Oct 2, that confirms this.

Since first delivery to SQ was originally scheduled for March 2006, then delayed to May, then delayed to November, then delayed to December, I wonder Oct 2 of which year. 2005? Five months before first delivery seems a bit early, but seven months after first delivery is implausible.


User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8150 times:

Do we know exactly the nature of the wiring difficulties? Seems to me that once a proper "SQ" configuration is proven the remainder of that carrier's deliveries should not be further delayed. If they are, then it's not simply a matter of working out the wiring, there must be physical installation issues - some modification to the airframe required.


Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7971 times:

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 5):
Do we know exactly the nature of the wiring difficulties?

This is the best article I've seen describing the rewiring process:

The race to rewire the Airbus A380

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...The+race+to+rewire+the+Airbus.html


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12359 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7851 times:

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 5):
Do we know exactly the nature of the wiring difficulties? Seems to me that once a proper "SQ" configuration is proven the remainder of that carrier's deliveries should not be further delayed. If they are, then it's not simply a matter of working out the wiring, there must be physical installation issues - some modification to the airframe required.

From the article linked in #6 above:

Quote:
he main cause of the delay lies with the need to replace or modify many of the hundreds of wiring harnesses that run through each aircraft, says vice-president A380 programme management Andreas Fehring. "We've had a much greater number of changes than expected resulting from modifications to electrical systems and structure following feedback from bench-testing, flight-testing and customisation needs," he says.

I'm doing some selective highlighting here, but having done so, your theory is plausible.

The article talks a lot about the knock-on effects. A quick production ramp-up was planned, so a lot of sub-assemblies were being produced from an early date. As above, the feedback from bench test, flight test and customization caused a lot of these sub-assemblies to be produced incorrectly, yet they were sent onward as to not hold up production. Then, when all these sub-assemblies made it to final assembly, the amount of re-work required ovewhelmed the final assembly team. This bottleneck in turn, mandates the earlier stages reduce their producion rate, so that final assembly can catch up.

Simply put, the A380 production process is all buggered up, and according to Airbus's already announced schedules, the impact will be felt for years, and we may see even more delays after the new schedule is announced by the end of this month.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7688 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 6):
This is the best article I've seen describing the rewiring process:

Thanks, Leelaw. I noted this:

Quote:
"We implemented the necessary changes to execute the flight-test programme, and addressed the upstream problems. That was the paperwork, we now have to physically address the issues on each of the customer aircraft," he adds.

Fehring says that Station 30 is the point in the build process on the final assembly line where each aircraft undergoes an electrical systems check ahead of power-on. "At this point normally, there should just be some finishing work, but the aircraft currently here are undergoing major rewiring," he says.

I read this as verification that there are physical modifications required to the pre-built aircraft. More than that, the comment regarding "major rewiring" tells me that this is not limited to customer-specific installations such as IFE. There is something more fundamental to this issue.

Here's a thought: if Airbus has the wiring issues worked out, why not assemble new airframes with the corrections and deliver those while reworking the problem aircraft? Does it matter who gets which hull number? I don't understand holding up the entire production process while the corrections are made. The "defective" aircraft could be fixed in parallel and used for later deliveries.  scratchchin 



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7688 times:

I think this is the online version of the print article Astuteman summarized earlier in the threadstarter, although the headline has been revised:

A380 production delays force change to route-proving plan

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...force+change+to+route-proving.html

[Edited 2006-09-18 19:57:35]

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7657 times:

Quoting Flight International:
[Fehring] says the build-up in outstanding work resulted from the policy last year to ship subassemblies to Toulouse incomplete, rather than hold them back and cause a bottleneck. "As each milestone in the build process was reached, if the required work had not been finished then the assemblies were delivered to the final assembly line uncompleted to avoid slowing the production rate," he says.

In retrospect, this was a very bad decision. I expect that whoever is responsible for it is among those who have been shown the door.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12359 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7588 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 10):
In retrospect, this was a very bad decision. I expect that whoever is responsible for it is among those who have been shown the door.

I thought about this as I read it.

Clearly someone wanted to show 'progress' at all cost.

On the other hand, what's the point of holding on to the sub-assembly if the final wiring diagrams aren't done, and the completion date for the wiring diagram is unknown too?

I suppose, in retrospect, maybe moving the parts forward for the five planes needed for flight test was sensible, but my understanding is there are now ten fully assembled A380s.

Maybe this is why it was Mr. Humbert who lost his job (well, actually, he's still a "special advisor" to Streiff).



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30641 posts, RR: 84
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7566 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
A quick production ramp-up was planned, so a lot of sub-assemblies were being produced from an early date. As above, the feedback from bench test, flight test and customization caused a lot of these sub-assemblies to be produced incorrectly, yet they were sent onward as to not hold up production. Then, when all these sub-assemblies made it to final assembly, the amount of re-work required ovewhelmed the final assembly team. This bottleneck in turn, mandates the earlier stages reduce their producion rate, so that final assembly can catch up.

I wonder if the rumored delays with the 787 suppliers might reflect some of this complexity. The 787 pre-fabbed sub-assemblies are bigger (not in actual size, but in percentage of the entire frame per barrel) so more of the wiring is probably self-contained within each sub-assembly, plus you don't need to worry about as much ducting and such since bleed-air isn't used for HVAC and such. However, the fuselage barrels will have interconnects between them that will need to match up.


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9979 posts, RR: 96
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7562 times:
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Quoting Leelaw (Reply 9):
I think this is the online version of the print article Astuteman summarized earlier in the threadstarter, although the headline has been revised:

Thanks Leelaw

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 10):
In retrospect, this was a very bad decision.

And How! - it's teeth-grindingly bad.
We still habitually do this in the yard, and it p****s me off.
And yet you'll get some knobhead with lots of gold-braid "applauding" the "progress".

Doesn't bother me though............ much  gnasher   Smile

Regards


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12359 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7497 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
I wonder if the rumored delays with the 787 suppliers might reflect some of this complexity. The 787 pre-fabbed sub-assemblies are bigger (not in actual size, but in percentage of the entire frame per barrel) so more of the wiring is probably self-contained within each sub-assembly, plus you don't need to worry about as much ducting and such since bleed-air isn't used for HVAC and such. However, the fuselage barrels will have interconnects between them that will need to match up.

I've read elsewhere that Boeing has stated that early in the program, some work that will eventually be done by the sub-contractors will be done in-house. I hope they manage that carefully, or they'll end up in a similar situation.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7451 times:

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 13):
And yet you'll get some knobhead with lots of gold-braid "applauding" the "progress".

That happens in your shipyards, too?  Wink



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8191 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7443 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
I wonder if the rumored delays with the 787 suppliers might reflect some of this complexity.

Wasn't there an article a while back indicating that for the initial 787s the wiring would be done during the assembly rather than having the sub-assemblies pre-wired? I seem to remember at the time thinking that Boeing was paying attention to the 380 wiring problems and wanted to avoid being in the same situation.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7341 times:

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 13):
And How! - it's teeth-grindingly bad.
We still habitually do this in the yard, and it p****s me off.
And yet you'll get some knobhead with lots of gold-braid "applauding" the "progress".

It's a natural manifestation of the tendency to believe what one wants to believe.


User currently offlineBrendows From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 1020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7296 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):

Wasn't there an article a while back indicating that for the initial 787s the wiring would be done during the assembly rather than having the sub-assemblies pre-wired?

Yes, there was, here:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com

The part you are looking for:

Quote:
Bair said that some of the 787 wiring might not be installed until final assembly in Everett, later in the process than Boeing wants.

"It will be a headlong race to the end on wiring," Bair said.

And some parts will be installed on the plane out of sequence, he said.

"It looks pretty good right now, but we will have travel work -- parts installed in the first few planes where we hoped they would not be."


User currently offlineAeroplaneFreak From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7170 times:
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I would have thought MSN007 would have been completed by now.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30641 posts, RR: 84
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7153 times:
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Quoting AeroplaneFreak (Reply 19):
I would have thought MSN007 would have been completed by now.

That was the plan.  Smile

Alas, KrisWorld and the new super-seats have muffed those plans.


User currently offlineAeroplaneFreak From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7137 times:
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When will MSN006 and MSN008 first fly?

User currently offlineJayinKitsap From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 769 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7127 times:

Quoting AeroplaneFreak (Reply 19):
I would have thought MSN007 would have been completed by now.

So which hull numbers are expected to be delivered in 2007? We know the one for 2006 if it certifies in time.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7045 times:

Quoting AeroplaneFreak (Reply 19):
I would have thought MSN007 would have been completed by now.

Should have been in service five months ago.


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7007 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 23):
Should have been in service five months ago.

I'm not sure about five months ago, because the cabin installed on MSN007 for the evacuation testing required significant refitting to carry out the route proving test-flights; nevertheless, any required refit of MSN007 should have been completed by now. Airbus has certainly been plagued by problems installing cabins in the two test aircraft MSN002 and 007 where installation of cabins was planned as part of the flight-test program. One can't help but wonder how cabin installation on MSN003 & 005, the first two aircraft scheduled for delivery to SQ, is progressing?


25 WingedMigrator : Thanks for the heads up, Astuteman. I also saw an article in this week's Aviation Week (sorry, no link... it's a paid subscription site) Airbus Tweak
26 Post contains images Zvezda : Nice to finally see some good news from the WhaleJet program.
27 Post contains images Astuteman : Can I pick you up on that one, and ask for more information (like in what way exactly, where did the info come from etc? Regards
28 AutoThrust : " target=_blank>http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles....html Very interesting Link, Leelaw thanks for sharing. IMO this wiring issues are a bad thing,
29 Zvezda : Yes, it's Ethernet. With all the interference issues, perhaps they should have used the older coaxial Ethernet cabling rather than twisted pair? 10Mb
30 Scouseflyer : So in effect there isn't dedicated connections between controllers and controlled items - be they cockpit controls to flaps, engines, etc DVD player
31 RichardPrice : Normally each system has its own independant wire from A to B, even if there are 20 other systems all going from A to B (say, front of the aircraft t
32 Zvezda : I would imagine the flight controls might be separate, but I'll ask my brother-in-law who is managing part of that effort. I'll see him this weekend.
33 Scouseflyer : nice one!
34 AutoThrust : To reduce also weight and complexity of wires, right? Thanks for explanation.
35 Trekster : I fully agree. This is a new plane, there are always problems with something new. How do u know its going to work until its built and tested, hence d
36 A520 : May be a stupid question but ... couldn't the non-essential signals (IFE for instance) be dispatched through wireless systems?
37 RichardPrice : If you are going to go that route, then deliver the content and power over the same wire - wireless has bandwidth issues among other problems
38 Scouseflyer : What they may now be doing is trying the approach that I use for IT projects I'm involved in "Under Promise so tha you can Over Deliver" Ie they will
39 TeamAmerica : They used twisted pair? I would think fiber optic is the only way to go. No RFI issues at all, and as much bandwidth as you like. Probably somewhat h
40 Post contains images Stitch : Interpretation of Airbus' comments that the wiring issues are (mostly) caused by "customer requirements"; SQ calls their IFE "KrisWorld"; SQ has stat
41 Post contains links Leelaw : IMO, the causes, scope, duration, and impact/knock-on effects of the delays associated with the two programs are not really comparable. Ultimately, t
42 TeamAmerica : Thanks for these excerpts, WingedMigrator. Say what? How long have they known that there would be route proving, and how long does it take to get SQ o
43 Post contains links Zeke : 5 interconnected Avionics Full Duplex Switched Ethernet (ADFX) networks are used on the A380, the domains are flight control, cockpit, fuel and LG, e
44 Post contains images A520 : You must be lucky enough to work in a non-competitive domain. Otherwise, a competitor comes along, draw a "more realistic picture" ... and gets the c
45 Post contains images Zvezda : Yes, it's twisted pair using RJ45 connectors. 10Mb/s and 100Mb/s. One could almost read this as meaning that the WhaleJet wouldn't have suffered wiri
46 Post contains links and images Revelation : From www.afdx.com: So it is ethernet, and it is not ethernet! It's ethernet with extensions to provide deterministic timing and redundancy. This is ab
47 Post contains images Zvezda : The redundancy is in how it's used. Investment banks and ISPs use redundant Ethernet. Nothing special. ADFX just specifies that Ethernet be used redu
48 AirFrnt : Why not keep the same title? We slam people who go the other way to introduce a more negative title onto a thread. I have yet to read a single quote
49 Zeke : Yes Zvezda, you had no idea what ADFX was until I posted. As I said Please READ what I said. ADFX is a new state of the art subset of ARINC 664 devel
50 Zvezda : Zeke, I didn't know what wire was until you posted -- which didn't stop me from writing two computer networking books without your help. Thanks for t
51 Post contains images Astuteman : I don't know what you're trying to infer by "the other way". I posted the thread under a title which directly represented the content and context of
52 Zvezda : I think the title Astuteman chose is fair. I think the original FI title was fair too. I don't always agree with Astuteman, but he clearly makes an e
53 DeltaDC9 : Double shielded twisted pair is more than adequate and far superior to "cheapernet" coax, but I would be absolutely amazed if they were not using fib
54 RichardPrice : Fibre has huge issues with bending and splicing, i doubt it would be ideal for the internals of an aircraft.
55 Post contains images TeamAmerica : No issues with bending fiber. The stuff we have now can be tied in knots without breaking; it's quite amazing. As for splicing, you strive for "home
56 TeamAmerica : Double-posted...damn IE 7 beta...[Edited 2006-09-19 21:06:58]
57 Post contains links DeltaDC9 : I was referring to backbones, not feeds to individual devices. BUT fiber is widely used in aircraft, space ships, submarines etc. Here is a quote fro
58 Post contains images RichardPrice : Theres a limit to how far the fibre can bend before the light beam loses coherency, it isnt a matter of strength. Cant do sudden right angles with fi
59 Post contains images Revelation : So now we know why it's not being used on the A380!
60 TeamAmerica : Quite true, there is a minimum bend radius, but it's not an impediment. I can coil fiber around my pinky finder twenty times and still get a good sig
61 Rheinbote : They are.
62 EI321 : Anybody else hear that the A380 is apparently doing touch & go tests at SNN tonight?
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