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Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (8 years 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14709 times:

In presse-reports in Austria ,the possible change from Star Alliance to Skyteam is mentioned.
The increasing competition from LH flights into east-block counties ex MUC is considered by Austrian Airlines management a serious threat.IN a special board-meeting on Oct. 2 the green light to initiate the departure from Star could be obtained.

http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=2591371


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTriStar500 From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 4695 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14676 times:

Don't know if this would be such a good move if really followed through. Due to strong cultural ties between Austria and Germany (and the heavy business and private traffic generated by these) and the strong integration into the Star network, it would be hard for OS to gain the same benefits in term of passenger and freight volume if they become part of Skyteam.

AB is already nibbling away successfully at OS's Germany market, if LH is now becoming another competitor, I can see OS losing out heavily on the routes to Central and Western Europe.



Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4629 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14670 times:

So they think by pulling out of an alliance that includes LH they'll be better protected from competition from them? That doesn't make sense to me. If Austrian wasn't in STAR LH would be a lot more ruthless and I don't think a carrier the size of Austrian could cope.

Kris



Word
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14653 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
The increasing competition from LH flights into east-block counties ex MUC is considered by Austrian Airlines management a serious threat.


They are safe in Star and if they joined Skyteam they will be working with five European members two of which are Eastern European carriers.

Question: Why Skyteam? Is Austrian bankrupt or recently merged?

[Edited 2006-09-19 08:39:15]


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineZKNBX From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14614 times:

I think it makes a lot of sense. Too much STAR density in LX - LH - LO - OS - SK et al... I would say since LX joined, muscles flexing, OS are feelin the pinch.

Skyteam - you could argue that OK are also very close to OS geographically but the size differential (!) compared with LH and LO probably makes it a more attractive option. Also, with Skyteam, OS would have less Skyteam competition re long haul traffic from the eastern end of Europe... potentially a good move for their services to the far east.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4509 posts, RR: 72
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 6 days ago) and read 14571 times:

It wouldn't be the first time for Austrian to make such a bold move and leave an alliance. In tempore non suspecto, back in 1999, OS decided to leave the ill-fated Qualiflyer Group in favor of a tie up with Lufthansa because of the overly dominant position of Swissair in that partnership. That decision proved successful for the Austrian Airlines Group, and I believe that a possible move away from Star and into Skyteam would entail much more benefits for OS than one would presume.

User currently offlineZKNBX From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 6 days ago) and read 14533 times:

Well said, HBIWC.

It is useful to have an historical perspective. OS move out of Qualifyer at the time SR entered the arena is telling re these rumours.


User currently offlineAlespesl From Czech Republic, joined Jan 2004, 582 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 6 days ago) and read 14514 times:

I would love OS to come to SKYTEAM. I am a big fan of this airline and flown with them many times between PRG and VIE and on to YYZ or YUL.

I have a membership is CZECH AIRLINES OK PLUS and would love to collect points with OS.



Next Flight: Oct 10: PRG-MUC-KIV EMB 195/CRJ 900, Oct 12: KIV-MUC-PRG CRJ900/EMB 195 wiht Lufthansa
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8580 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 6 days ago) and read 14437 times:
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so , if this happens OS will leave behind their frequent flyer database to start again from scratch ? also , aren't they hosted in LH's res system - I assume that there would be a substantial penalty payable to LH for breaking this commerical arrangement in addition to the rumoured fee for leaving Star . I believe also ( though I can't remember the source ) that if a member opts to leave Star they are not permitted to join a rival alliance for a period of two years - a period in which they would be very vulnerable - in short , while OS may not be happy with how things are in Star nobody should underestimate how difficult things could be for them if they decide to move on


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14426 times:

..but you underestimate the ego of Austrian politicians when it comes to the independance of "their" national airline.Austrians are somewhat more emotional when it comes to their pride and pure economical-financial reasons for a maintain in STAR are a little unrealistic....
The current situation does not provide any perspective for them -so they have to initiate a stategic move.
Better " ein Ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne Ende.."



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14334 times:

Austrian airlines seems to LOVE moving away from alliances.
First they pull out of Qualiflyer and then STAR.

Quoting ZKNBX (Reply 4):
I think it makes a lot of sense. Too much STAR density in LX - LH - LO - OS - SK et al... I would say since LX joined, muscles flexing, OS are feelin the pinch.

Skyteam - you could argue that OK are also very close to OS geographically but the size differential (!) compared with LH and LO probably makes it a more attractive option. Also, with Skyteam, OS would have less Skyteam competition re long haul traffic from the eastern end of Europe... potentially a good move for their services to the far east.

Not only OK but AZ and to a lesser extent AF.



A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 36
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14305 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 3):
Is Austrian bankrupt or recently merged?

Not bankrupt, but in a critical financial situation.

Quoting ZKNBX (Reply 6):
OS move out of Qualifyer at the time SR entered

To be correct, SR did not enter Qualifyer but was a founding member.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 9):
..but you underestimate the ego of Austrian politicians when it comes to the independance of "their" national airline.Austrians are somewhat more emotional when it comes to their pride and pure economical-financial reasons for a maintain in STAR are a little unrealistic....
The current situation does not provide any perspective for them -so they have to initiate a stategic move.
Better " ein Ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne Ende.."

That was the same with the Swiss politicians. But after the SR bankruptcy and the selling of Swiss to LH everybody now takes it easy and is quite satisfied with the current situation.


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3514 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14268 times:

Does not make any sense to me for a number of reasons.

Leaving one alliance and joining another is a very expensive operation. There are better ways to invest money for OS.

Secondly they cut off themselves from any feeding from Lufthansa, Adria etc I do not believe AF or OK will provide any value as feeders.

Third, if they complain about STAR competition now, just imagine what will happen with them once they leave the alliance. They are pretty much surrounded by STAR carriers and will face very fierce fight against them.

Leaving Qualiflier was right as this was ill and weak alliance with major players slowly drowning. Leaving world's strongest alliance may be a deadly move.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14255 times:

Austrian perhaps has better opportunities to expand in Skyteam. The additional of Swiss probably didn't help.

An alliance can be so full of airlines that individual airlines feel restrained and overruled by the bigger ones. Thai is another good example within Star that plays up now and then.


User currently offlineFrancoBlanco From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 14217 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 9):
ein Ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne Ende

And rather lose the market share on flights between Austria and Germany than lose the market in Eastern Europe, where LH is a lot stronger than OS already.

speculation on:
Maybe OS could even continue the flights to Australia once they are in Skyteam. Currently there are no Skyteam flights between Europe and Down Under. speculation off.

The independence of OS is not only of national interest in Austria. OS being taken over by LH would definetly mean that OS would become nothing more than a regional feeder for LH.

Sebastian


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 14184 times:

Quoting FrancoBlanco (Reply 14):
The independence of OS is not only of national interest in Austria. OS being taken over by LH would definetly mean that OS would become nothing more than a regional feeder for LH.

... which is exactly, word for word, the same thing that a lot of members here claimed would happen to LX... and I think most of us are aware of what happened to those rumors, right?

LH is not stupid - if they were, they wouldn't be where they are today. If they were to take over OS, they'd continue the short/medium/longhauls that make sense, they'd discontinue those that don't.

Claiming that they'd convert OS into "nothing more than a regional feeder for LH" is just pure speculation, nothing else.



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4121 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 14171 times:

LH is just waiting for OS to go belly up so they have one competitor less in Europe.
So they need to join a different alliance. Currently OS is not able to survive and with increasing competition to Eastern European destinations LH will add some pressure.

So they have these options:

1) staying with Star and losing money, taken over by LH at some stage
2) joining a different alliance and hoping for better times
3) radical resizing, cutting loss making routes, laying off people etc. and stay with Star (but of course Austrian politician's pride will not allow this)

Regards,
RJ100



none
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 14111 times:

Quoting FrancoBlanco (Reply 14):
speculation on:
Maybe OS could even continue the flights to Australia once they are in Skyteam. Currently there are no Skyteam flights between Europe and Down Under. speculation off.

I don't see passengers from France first travel to Vienne and fly on stop-over Singapore to Sydney-that makes two stops instead of the usual one stop via Dubai ,Bangkok or Singapore.
I don't say it's completely unfeasable but a somewhat longer route...



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineKonrad From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 14086 times:

AUA has no separate FF program, their premium customers are LH Miles&More Senators and FTLs. If AUA goest to SkyTeam those customers on most profitable routes (say VIE-IAD, VIE-LHR, VIE-FRA) are likely to stay with LH or other Star airlines, e.g. UA. Not to mention the extra cost of starting a brand new FF program.

On a different note: I keep hearing a lot of complaints about LH entering East Europe market which was supposed to be OS ground for expansion. The point is, LH offers a better product in the short- and medium-haul segment so no wonder Star customers chose with their feet and went LH via MUC iso OS via VIE. AUA offers nothing but water on 1 1/2 h flights and this is not exactly what I expect from a major alliance carrier.

I doubt SkyTeam needs AUA having already CSA and Alitalia operating close by.


User currently offlineFrancoBlanco From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 14012 times:

Quoting Leskova (Reply 15):
Claiming that they'd convert OS into "nothing more than a regional feeder for LH" is just pure speculation, nothing else

I forgot to add the speculation on/off thingy in this case, that's true.

Nevertheless, I cannot imagine Star Alliance building a hub in VIE with FRA, MUC and ZRH so close. True, LX continues to be a national carrier for Switzerland and they can keep their long-haul destinations. But on the other hand, why should the same go for OS? OS's long-haul flights are not as interesting as LX's and OS's network in Eastern Europe doesn't mean much to LH when they have a larger network there on their own.

As I said, that's just my point of view and I always like to have an open discussion.

Sebastian


User currently offlineZKNBX From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 13988 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 12):
imagine what will happen with them once they leave the alliance. They are pretty much surrounded by STAR carriers and will face very fierce fight against them.

Yes but there are rules, protecting airlines against dishonest competition (price fixing). Look what happened to LH last week? (significant payout in the trans-atlantic price fixing saga). So competition may be fierce, but it also comes to WHO and WHERE your friends are and HOW you can get most leverage.


User currently offlineSwissA330 From Switzerland, joined Mar 2002, 613 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 13988 times:

Regarding the FF-System

They are in Miles&More, that's correct, but they have their own customer database. (Same for Swiss btw)
Austrian (resp. Swiss) Passengers are being handled by a regional Miles&More Center only handling those passengers.
I.e. the former Swiss Travelclub guys are now called miles&more Switzerland, and all former STC Members became a member of Miles&More.

BTW: Frequent Flyer Programme changes happened a lot lately, it is not that uncommon.... E.g. when Qualiflyer broke up, you could chose where you wanted your miles to go, either to TP, SN, LX etc... then, when LX joined LH you could choose wether to open up a new account or join it to an existing LH one etc. So solutions are possible...



swissair/+/ we care
User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13863 times:

I cant imagine Austrian moving from Star Alliance, I think it's a deal strengthing tactic to negotiate with LH.

I thought LH has a share in AUA Group ? If so then LH has a voting right also.

At the end of the dat AUA is going to become a feeder to LH, plus a couple of Long Hauls, as is Lot, Swiss and Scandinavian.

If AUA were to align with Czech, AF and KLM... they wouldnt have a chance, and people wouldnt want to feed to AMS, CDG from VIE or from Graz via VIE to CDG for a long haul, when they could go Graz to MUC with LH and fly one OS Segment instead of 2



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3514 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13813 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 22):
At the end of the dat AUA is going to become a feeder to LH, plus a couple of Long Hauls, as is Lot, Swiss and Scandinavian.

Let's get few things straight.

Nobody prohibits OS to fly to Australia other than the market. It is lack of passengers and lack of revenue that caused OS to terminate this service.

SAS is hardly LH feeder. LOT maybe but only due to their own incompetence and political management not LH forcing them to something.

Swiss was saved by LH from bankruptcy and began to grow under LH management not the opposite.
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2994442

Are they getting those A340 to feed FRA and MUC?


User currently offlineMotorHussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3224 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13757 times:

From an alliance perspective, it makes good strategic and competitor sense to me, but oneworld would make even more sense.

oneworld has no Central European alliance partner currently and particularly nothing in the German block. OS would be a coup.

SkyTeam has CSA (OK) in Central Europe, but would benefit from OS participation immensely.

In the Star Alliance group, OS is one of many in Central Europe (and the poor cousin in the German block - because of LH's partial ownership of LX - so no offense you Austrian a.nutters) with no particular strategic strength to hinge and galvanise support on from other Star carriers.

IMHO
Regards
MH



come visit the south pacific
25 Kiwiandrew : what about MA ?
26 ZKNBX : MA is .... in a state of flux. I gather they got the rough end of the pineapple from Skyteam and are en route to One World as we speak. Not that One W
27 Post contains links and images Kiwiandrew : yes they have http://www.oneworld.com/ow/news-and-information 19 September 2006aword from oneworld: September 2006 Japan Airlines, Malév and Royal J
28 Freedom747 : Com'on over, SkyTeam has room
29 MotorHussy : Good point, forgot they were in the starting line-up for the next intake. Shades of the old Austro-Hungarian empire - could be LOL. Regards MH
30 JGPH1A : OS are currently hosted in Lufthansa Systems inventory/DCS, and in Amadeus for Reservations. But so a are a lot of carriers, including some LH compet
31 Post contains images Swissy : For sure OS is "free" to go however if it is for the better??? time would tell. OS had a good "eastern" network and VIE is a very good gateway to east
32 FrancoBlanco : I'd say we should stop speculating about OS joining oneworld; there haven't been any talks or even rumors about that. Remember that it's not like OS h
33 Aviator27 : I can in fact confirm this rumor to be more than true from the information I got from reliable sources when I was in Vienna last week. Star alliance d
34 JAL : But wouldn't OneWorld with fewer member airlines (I think only Malev) in that area be a better choice?
35 Orlando666 : I think Austrian could also do something else: (A) Stop all Long-Haul Flying - Their withdrawal from KUL/Australia is in the right direction, I doubt
36 Beaucaire : You have Skyeurope,Wizzair and Centralwings already active in this market-if you add Germanwings,Ryanair,Esyjet and Air Berlin (they are thought to a
37 B777-700 : Oh hahaha...you're a funny guy. Lemme make sure I understand the punchline. Did you mean like United bankrupt, or USAirways bankrupt? Was it like USA
38 DeltaDAWG : While I would like to OS in SkyTeam I really question the move. There are two sides to this. One, OS has an agreement (albeit one they obviously are s
39 DALelite : AUA in the Skyteam Alliance would be great. DL/AF offered them to join early in 2000 but AUA went to LH instead. DALelite
40 Goldorak : I would love also to see AUA in skyteam. Don't forget they already code-share with AF for several years on CDG-VIE and LYS-VIE. Star carriers are supp
41 KLM685 : OS could do something similar as MX did when they left Star Alliance. They kept code-share with most of the major SA carriers and slowly face them ou
42 CRJ900 : Does Austria attract hoardes of tourists and business people in its own right or do most people just pass through the country on their way to somethin
43 Dtwclipper : OS in Skyteam? When do they start VIE-DTW?
44 WorldTraveler : OS can easily see what LH has done to LX and they do not want that repeated with them. OS will always face a difficult road but they can pick a partne
45 FrancoBlanco : As being said in previous post in this very thread, AF has stated their interest in OS. It seems that OK's opinion on this topic is rather irrelevant
46 Ckfred : This is sort of revisiting the past, since OS used to codeshare with DL, prior to joining Star. I remember that OS used to fly ATL-VIE.
47 ZRH : At moment it is very positive what LH has "done" to LX. LX makes profit and is able to expand: 2 more A 321, 1 A 320, 2 332 and probably a few more A
48 Airbazar : Sooner or later OS will go belly up, it's that simple. What value does OS bring to any alliance? The geographic location of VIE (in the middle of Euro
49 VV701 : Sorry. What traffic would LH feed to OS? I would have thought that 90 per cent of the feed between LH and OS was from OS to LH. Please correct me if
50 AirCanada014 : If OS there will be heavy penalty for leaving Star Alliance. A poison pill introduce after the Air Canada takeover battle between American Airlines an
51 HT : While I don't have any numbers of percentages, one must not forget that LH and OS serve many airports in Germany and Austria on nonstop flights from
52 Leskova : The reason that OS is able to offer connections from practically every airport in Germany is their alliance with LH: the fact that neither airline of
53 Danny : Mexicana case was very, very different. Mexicana was fairly independent airline with its own systems, frequent flyer etc. So it was easier for them t
54 Leskova : Considering this bit of information... ... as well as this bit... ... I'd venture the guess that these two issues would be rather minor ones: they wo
55 Post contains images SK909 : Hi VonRichtofen... I hope you know what you are saying... And yes it is a lovely thing... And I enjoy it a lot... On regards to OS leaving STAR, ther
56 JoFMO : Maybe these changes could pay off for AUA in the long term, but I doubt they could efford them at the first place. AUA is still bleeding money. A chan
57 SK909 : What? Is OS really that ill? I knew that the airline was hurt, but that they were bleeding that bad I didn't know. What are the chances of OS getting
58 JoFMO : They had big losses last year. They said that they hope for an black 0 this year, but analysts say that this is optimistic. But I would say a Europea
59 SK909 : Well SK isn't doing to well... Although they are improving... Lets see at the end of the year.
60 VORFMD : Explain "the current Boom" please ?!?!?! OS suffers a lot from "homemade Austrian" Problems who has nothing to do with OS themselve. Vienna Airport (
61 Post contains images SK909 : He is a smart man... Should have done that a long time ago. But better late than never...
62 Post contains images HanginOut : I really hope that they don't leave Star. I always try to use Austrian to fly to Europe, as I prefer them over both AC and LH. I find their service to
63 VORFMD : I think they will leave..........
64 GRZ-AIR : Their biggest problem is the fleet-mix and internal "political" crap that remains from the Lauda merger as well as the prev. stated OMV fuel costs. Mr
65 Post contains images SK909 : Yes they are incredibly lovely... Mergers are always noisy. It always ends up with two cultures, unless the management handles from the beginning...
66 Post contains images VonRichtofen : Yep, I know what I'm saying. And yes it's a beautiful thing Kris
67 Post contains images SK909 : That is why I love living in Denmark, and having father living in Norway, and brother living in Sweden. I have my tours around Scandinavia to "sights
68 ZKNBX : Steady goes. Who said they were in such dire straights? Loosing money is one thing, on the slippery slope to bankruptsy is another; if you make such
69 EmiratesCPH : SAS may have own European or Scandinavian network. But LH is really eating up longhaul traffic which SAS obviously cannot take due to a miniput "long
70 JoFMO : I did not say THIS year! I spoke about the time period of approximately a year between the announcement to leave Star/M&M/LH-Codeshare and the full i
71 VORFMD : to pay the Costs for changing to another Alliance ?
72 VORFMD : Rumours have it: OS will join Skyteam Mr.Ötsch, CEO of OS came back from Paris, uuppss
73 WildcatYXU : Hmmm, I personally wouldn't be happy if that's true, since they're the only *A members flying to KSC...But hey, I'll find the way to get there.
74 JoFMO : Don't worry too much. Chances are good that you will get LH to MUC if AUA leaves.
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